F2 F3?

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MushinNoShin

MushinNoShin

What should those progeny be called, then?
I've asked every biology professor I've had that same question and there is no name for it, apparently. It is just a cross. The whole filial thing is in reference to hybrid crosses from two genetically different parents with distinct traits (seperate purebred lines), traditionally.
 
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Chobble

Chobble

I'm sorry but your professor was wrong. Mendel self-fertilized his pea plants and that is actually one of the experiments that formed the basis of what we now know as the heredity model.

The filial generations (F1,F2, etc.) are based on the premise that the parents are true-breeding for selected traits (originally).

In "classical" Mendelian Genetics the F1 will have dominant trait expressions (assuming no incomplete dominance), again, assuming the parental stock were true-breeding for said traits. The F2 gen consists of interbred individuals from the F1 gen and is the most diverse due to the expression of recessive alleles, allowing for 3 possible phenotypic expressions. After the F2 gen, depending on what traits were selected for/individuals selected, expression becomes more restrictive with each successive generation, generally. One can usually get a true-breeding individual by F4 or F6 if they properly identify their traits.

F2 and F3 gens by definition can NOT be back-crossed. F2 can only be obtained from the interbreeding of individuals within the F1 gen and F3 only from individuals within F2 gen.

If the parental stock were homozygous dominant for selected trait(s) then you would get "stable" or true-breeding Individuals in the F1 gen.

Now, this is all more of a guideline because in reality there are codominant traits, sex-linked traits, etc. and so many other facotors at play. People are usually not using true-breeding parental stock to begin with anyways. They'll cross F2's from one line to F3's from another and call their progeny F1's. Not hating or anything, that's just what they do. I'm not going to pretend like I don't chuck pollen too, it's fun, I just don't call the progeny F1's.
I've emerged from the depths to reply to this.

Stabilized "Land Race" breeds, or endemic varieties. Where at one point an F1 variety, they where the first generation. At that point the gene pool was at its broadest, Hybrid vigor had taken place and you should be seeing all the dominant genes from the two initial parents. Now as it narrows down the dominant traits from both parents will start to homogenize into the heard. This is what we identify as an F1, F2, F3 generation. To be properly labeled it must be observed in a controlled environment.

Anyways the point of this thread was to address feminized seeds; and no in the plant world S1 and Feminized are basic parts of breeding practices. Both of which in the Botanical world are not proper/correct terms.

Also you cant talk about chemical manipulation (It was two years ago but I believe colloidal silver was the thing that started this thread?) and compare Mendel's basic breeding practices, we have advanced very far in the last 700 years.
 
MushinNoShin

MushinNoShin

F2 and F3 are the same varieties back crossed...


S1=Femenized Seed

They dont really exist, S1's and Feminized seeds only exist in the pot grower world...
These were the two areas I was commenting on. You obviously know your genetics very well, just a couple inaccuracies here. Honestly, happens to me all the time; I get a brain fart or things mixed-up/backwards. No biggie.
 
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MushinNoShin

MushinNoShin

Something worth mentioning; there is another way to get feminized (xx) pollen called rhodelization where females in late bloom are taken way beyond their "ripeness" and eventually pop pollen sacs. This happens in nature and I believe it is a survival adaptation, if a female has not been pollinated and is near the end of her life, she will pop pollen in an attempt to self-pollenate and pass along her genetic material. The will to reproduce is strong, lol.

Colloidal silver is far more effective and reliable, IME, but if anyone wants a natural route, rhodlization might work.

I believe the "late flower herm trait" can be attributed to rhodelization.
 
J

jeff1962

The goji i ran was f1 and wow that was crazy, 14 females from seed and 4 different phenos, very cool. The roarges im runnin right now r f2, i have 3 from seed and they look like clones they r so uniform, so i can say that baba g of golden lion does the f2's very well, very stable.
My gojis from bohdi were f2 from what ive read over at breedbay..ive made f3 seeds and they were even better plants in those than were in the original11 pack.I had 6 gals out of 8 seeds (the other 4 got put in the sgarbage..and 4 or 5 phenos
 
shemshemet

shemshemet

Something worth mentioning; there is another way to get feminized (xx) pollen called rhodelization where females in late bloom are taken way beyond their "ripeness" and eventually pop pollen sacs. This happens in nature and I believe it is a survival adaptation, if a female has not been pollinated and is near the end of her life, she will pop pollen in an attempt to self-pollenate and pass along her genetic material. The will to reproduce is strong, lol.

Colloidal silver is far more effective and reliable, IME, but if anyone wants a natural route, rhodlization might work.

I believe the "late flower herm trait" can be attributed to rhodelization.
From what most of the breeders say, using the rhodelization technique is selecting for herm trait. Which is another reason why collodial silver is preferred. I think it's chimera who says when making feminized seeds, he will select against the plants which herm in any other conditions other than silver.
 
MushinNoShin

MushinNoShin

Really? Interesting, makes sense. Always suspected "late-flower herm trait" to be rhodelization.

Got a handful of beans via late-flower herm/rhodelization and just found another one. I popped the most recent one I found, was worried she might carry the latest-flower herm trait. Guess we'll see.

Happy 420!!!
 
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shemshemet

shemshemet

Mushin-

I'm really not sure what rules the hermaphrodite trait follows. It could be a simple dominant/recessive (AA Aa aa type). It could also follow more complex rules. Until I know that, personally I would try to stay away from all instances of herm traits either way...at least if I were using the genetics for breeding.

If I were to experiment with sex reversal, I would surely go the chemical route because of the factors I mentioned earlier.

In your case, if you want to breed with anything from that batch, definitely be weary when selecting. Grow the plant(s) that catch your eye a few times before making the final decision. Stress them out and make sure they don't herm readily.
 
MushinNoShin

MushinNoShin

Mushin-

I'm really not sure what rules the hermaphrodite trait follows. It could be a simple dominant/recessive (AA Aa aa type). It could also follow more complex rules. Until I know that, personally I would try to stay away from all instances of herm traits either way...at least if I were using the genetics for breeding.

If I were to experiment with sex reversal, I would surely go the chemical route because of the factors I mentioned earlier.

In your case, if you want to breed with anything from that batch, definitely be weary when selecting. Grow the plant(s) that catch your eye a few times before making the final decision. Stress them out and make sure they don't herm readily.
Was just planning to pop them and take a look, no plans to use as breeding stock. C'mon, give me a little more credit than that ;)
 
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MushinNoShin

MushinNoShin

I popped a bean that come out of nowhere in my bloom room. It came from my 213 OG which is an excellent cut and can take all the stress you can dish-out and ask for more, but will throw nanners around week 9 (late flower herm).
 
Lazerus00

Lazerus00

@MushinNoShin hey so im real new to all this but i am wondering to what and when to do introduce colidial silver? Do you spray it on plants or soak the seeds in it??...Please and thank you
 
MushinNoShin

MushinNoShin

I personally start spraying a week before 12/12 and keep spraying until I see pollen, using 50ppm colloidal silver.


I have heard people say that lower ppm more frequently works best and gives the best results.

You spray the female (usually a clone) with the colloidal silver solution (suspension?) to try and get her to pop female pollen. Usually works, but not always.
 
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MushinNoShin

MushinNoShin

Give you an example; I have a King Louis XIII OG that I like that I want to make some seeds with, but don't have a male that I think would give me genetic material suitable for what I am after. I'm gonna take a some clones from her and let them root, pick 2-4 of the strongest clones (just incase some die or something like that). I'll take one clone and start spraying her regularly with my 50 ppm colloidal silver, starting the week before she goes to 12/12. Forgot to mention, I will usually have my other clone(s) go into bloom a little earlier so that I have a nice fertile female by the time I get my pollen. Anyways, I am gonna keep spraying my clone I want feminized pollen from until I see pollen sacs. Some people say spray for a week into bloom, some say 2 weeks, I just spray until I see pollen. Then I will use that pollen (feminized XX pollen) to pollenate the other clone(s) I prepared. This will give me feminized seeds that were obtained without introducing an outside set of chromosomes. All the genetic material has come from 1 individual. Most people would call this an "S1", but for all I know the King Louis OG XIII cut is a S1 (which I think it actually is), so not exactly accurate.

Anyways, I could also take my King Louis XIII OG feminized pollen and hit my Skywalker OG cut and make feminized seeds. Wouldn't be a S1 either.

P.S. I will actually be doing this in about a week or so... Or at least try to, lol.
 
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MushinNoShin

MushinNoShin

Selfing plants or making what a lot of people tend to call "S1's" will NOT give you an identical copy of the plant being Selfed, I don't know why people keep saying this. It will simply give you a higher gene frequency, but the laws of inheritence still apply (dominant trait expression, recessive trait expressions, etc.). Granted, it will give you a better chance of pulling the traits your after, but often times you will some plants that are completely different from the Selfed plant... Unless your dealing with a "true-breeding" individual(s).

Anyone who actually selfs plants and runs a large enough population of the progeny on a regular basis can attest to this.
 
MushinNoShin

MushinNoShin

Did you know that even a clone doesn't give you an identical copy of the mother? It is damn near close, but still falsehood. Environment effects expression, period.

Sorry, end-rant. I just had oral surgery and am in mad pain.

This is all just from what I have learned and what I was taught. Could be totally fkn wrong for all I know.
 
Lazerus00

Lazerus00

I personally start spraying a week before 12/12 and keep spraying until I see pollen, using 50ppm colloidal silver.


I have heard people say that lower ppm more frequently works best and gives the best results.

You spray the female (usually a clone) with the colloidal silver solution (suspension?) to try and get her to pop female pollen. Usually works, but not always.
Thank you very much big homey! You guys are so full of knowledge i feel truly blessed to be able to share a forum with you guys!! I have learned so much the past 2 months and will continue learning here for the rest of my growing life!!!
 
MushinNoShin

MushinNoShin

Thank you very much big homey! You guys are so full of knowledge i feel truly blessed to be able to share a forum with you guys!! I have learned so much the past 2 months and will continue learning here for the rest of my growing life!!!
Anytime, bro. Honestly, I barely know my dick from my ass, lol. We're all learning.
 
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