F2 F3?

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shemshemet

shemshemet

Did you know that even a clone doesn't give you an identical copy of the mother? It is damn near close, but still falsehood. Environment effects expression, period.

Sorry, end-rant. I just had oral surgery and am in mad pain.

This is all just from what I have learned and what I was taught. Could be totally fkn wrong for all I know.

You're right about the S1 part, they will not be exact copies. But a cut from a plant is a cut from a plant, it is the same plant. If the part of the plant you took a cut from mutates, then the genetic material can be different. But you are not ever changing the genetics simply by cutting the plant.

Now on the other hand, a genotype can express differently under different environmental conditions. This would mean you have a different phenotype of the exact same plant, which is possible. This is called epigenetic variation, a genes expression can change over time. If the conditions in which you are growing highly favor a certain trait, it is possibly a cutting line can start to naturally grow that way. This is much much much much more common with woody plants that have been growing under certain conditions for a very long time, but it is possible. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/8...f-two-trees-epigenetics-makes-clones-diverge/
 
MushinNoShin

MushinNoShin

You're right about the S1 part, they will not be exact copies. But a cut from a plant is a cut from a plant, it is the same plant. If the part of the plant you took a cut from mutates, then the genetic material can be different. But you are not ever changing the genetics simply by cutting the plant.

Now on the other hand, a genotype can express differently under different environmental conditions. This would mean you have a different phenotype of the exact same plant, which is possible. This is called epigenetic variation, a genes expression can change over time. If the conditions in which you are growing highly favor a certain trait, it is possibly a cutting line can start to naturally grow that way. This is much much much much more common with woody plants that have been growing under certain conditions for a very long time, but it is possible. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/8...f-two-trees-epigenetics-makes-clones-diverge/
Point being that if you get a clone from a plant you won't get an IDENTICAL copy if you run it (especially if it came from another room). And it WILL have different expressions under different environmental conditions, not can.

Look at it like this; if I have a clone and he grows up in Antarctica and I grow up in Australia, we are going to be two very different individuals at the end of our lifetime.

Some expressions are dictated by inheritence, yes, but environment is also a major factor in expression. And in all life forms, not just "woody plants".

Life is adaptable and ever-changing.

Again, like I said, this is just how I was taught and based off of my understanding of it.

I agree with you that it is probably genetically identical (tho, to be honest, don't know if that is true or not), but your gonna end-up with something different.
 
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MushinNoShin

MushinNoShin

With all due respect; I'm not tryin to measure dicks with you, bro. Sorry if you took offense to anything I said. You obviously know your shit, honestly never meant to insinuate that you didn't.

P.S.
I realize, you said "Much more common in woody plants", but the 30 mins have passed and I can't change it, lol. My bad for that one.
 
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shemshemet

shemshemet

Mushin-

No dick measuring, just trying to spread the right info here. Clones are exact genetic copies of the plant they were taken from. Genetic mutation is the only way the genetic information can change. Expression can change under different circumstances, and under certain environments the expression WILL definitely change.

When I run the same clone a few runs in the same room, I get the same bud every harvest. Small differences, but no more than two different strains.
 
MushinNoShin

MushinNoShin

Mushin-

No dick measuring, just trying to spread the right info here. Clones are exact genetic copies of the plant they were taken from. Genetic mutation is the only way the genetic information can change. Expression can change under different circumstances, and under certain environments the expression WILL definitely change.

When I run the same clone a few runs in the same room, I get the same bud every harvest. Small differences, but no more than two different strains.
See, this kinda implies I was spreading the wrong information. My point was your not going to get the same bud floating in the clinics from a clone, that's all. Just because you get a cut, doesn't mean it will be IDENTICAL to the mother (emphasis on IDENTICAL).

If I have a clone, it may be genetically identical to the mother plant (and I'll take your word on that one), but it doesn't gurantee it is going to be IDENTICAL. I run the same cuts and get different characteristics all the time, the larger the environmental changes, the more expressions I start seeing.

I feel like your trying to twist my words; if I meant genetically identical, I would have said "genetically identical" (I'm pretty specific). I purposely did not include the word "genetically", because I don't know if that is true or not.

I see what your saying, tho. Your saying it is genetically identical (again, honestly won't argue with you because I don't know), I am saying your end product won't be identical, damn near, but not.

Sometimes I get a good run from a cut and sometimes a not so good run.

Semantics, I suppose.
 
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shemshemet

shemshemet

Mushin-

Semantics, exactly! You are right, if you buy a clone from a club, you are only buying the possibility of getting that exact bud. But as a exact genetic copy, you have a very high possibility of achieving that.

I only comment because I don't want people to see that and think clones are no good, and they need to buy seeds every time they harvest. They can clone their plants and grow out the same plant over and over. And in the same growroom, you are going to get pretty damn close to identical.

You were right, it is semantics on how your post is read.

The clone is an identical plant, the expressions may or may not be identical.
 
MushinNoShin

MushinNoShin

Mushin-

Semantics, exactly! You are right, if you buy a clone from a club, you are only buying the possibility of getting that exact bud. But as a exact genetic copy, you have a very high possibility of achieving that.

I only comment because I don't want people to see that and think clones are no good, and they need to buy seeds every time they harvest. They can clone their plants and grow out the same plant over and over. And in the same growroom, you are going to get pretty damn close to identical.

You were right, it is semantics on how your post is read.

The clone is an identical plant, the expressions may or may not be identical.
See, people can still be reasonable and cordial on the Internet. :) You being the more civil of us two, lol.

Wish I could totally blame it on my teeth :oops:
 
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WeAllGODZ

WeAllGODZ

2
3
-Mushin & Shemshemet

I thank you both for that volley of awesome info. I joined this forum just about a week ago, and it truly is great to see that there can be an exchange of ideas without folks trying to defend personal beliefs as hard truths. I was able to confirm my own understanding of breeding and learn something as well

When it comes to cannabis breeding and cannabis in general, I feel we are all on the the very edge of something never done before. We have the ability to freely exchange information and ideas at lightening fast speeds, as well as a growing level of global acceptance towards this plant. So accuracy of information is paramount to us growing and evolving with cannabis, not torturing or diluting it
 
P

Pendleton

Something I have not seen mentioned is the variation on the various generations. With a true F1 hybrid you will see uniformity down the line for certain traits. The F2 generation is also referred to as the segregating generation. The recombinations of the uniform F1s in the F2 generation throw out not just plants similar to the P line, but outlier plants showing greater potential than either the F1 or P lines. F2s are not uniform and I wish more "breeders" were aware of this.
 
SeaF0ur

SeaF0ur

Neither a breeder nor pollen chucker, I'm a humble seed maker, but I dont seem to see a concise answer to the thread...

S1: The first selfed generation.

F1: the first cross between two unrelated parents. The F stands for filial, and refers to the fact that all F1 progeny of the same cross are full brothers and sisters to one another.

F2: the second cross between two of those F1 plants.


rutgl0.jpg



If you took something to F6, and decided it was finished it would become P1
then using it in a new cross you'd go back to the top of the chart again...

say you took it to F4
then hit one it with one of the original parent plants...
F4Bx1
hit that with its parent again...
F4Bx2

S1 hit with pollen from its parent = S2
Parent hit with S1 pollen = S1BC1 or S1Bx1... I have also seen it written as SB1

even more....

A "single cross" is another name for an F1 hybrid. When two IBLs are crossed the F1 hybrid, or single cross, is the result. This type of cross has the most uniformity and hybrid vigor.

A "double cross" is made by crossing two single crosses which come from four separate IBLs. A double cross will be somewhat more variable than a single cross, but will have a wider range of adaptability. This adaptability makes the double cross good for diverse environments.

The "top cross" and the "three way cross" are used as testers. A top cross is an IBL crossed with a variety, and it is used to test for general combining ability. A three way cross is an IBL crossed with an F1. The result of this cross will be one of the parents of the double-cross, and it is used to test for specific combining ability.

A "backcross" is crossing the progeny back to one of its parents,and on another level, to any plant with the same genotype as a Parent. It is designed to improve the parent by retaining most of its qualities and adding a new one. After a series of backcrosses,some degree of uniformity is realized as a result of increased gene frequencies,fixing of some loci through selection and some incidental homozygosity. However, the offspring can only become completely homozygous if the recurrent parent was completely homozygous,and will remain heterozygous for the loci that were heterozygous in the recurrent parent.

A "self cross" is the result of a female Cannabis plant pollinating herself, whether by artificial induction or natural hermaphrodite tendencies. A female that has produced seed from its own pollen is said to be the S0 generation and the resulting seeds are the S1 progeny.

A "full sib" cross is a straight male-female cross between brothers and sisters.

A "half sib" cross uses sister females and unrelated males.
 
OrganicGanja

OrganicGanja

Killer thread keep up the good vibes.
 
StonedBlue

StonedBlue

Disabled Vet
Supporter
can you spray one branch to get pollen to dose the other branches of same plant?
 
shemshemet

shemshemet

Isn't that a thing?

What about gibberellic acid? Isn't that also used to reverse cannabis?


Yes collodial silver is the thing for reversing females and getting female seeds. I was just making sure that was the discussion!

Gibberellic acid I do know has something to do with sex. Not sure it reverses, but I know it isn't as good idea to spray on vegging plants that you want to turn out female!
 
MushinNoShin

MushinNoShin

Neither a breeder nor pollen chucker, I'm a humble seed maker, but I dont seem to see a concise answer to the thread...

S1: The first selfed generation.

F1: the first cross between two unrelated parents. The F stands for filial, and refers to the fact that all F1 progeny of the same cross are full brothers and sisters to one another.

F2: the second cross between two of those F1 plants.


View attachment 520584


If you took something to F6, and decided it was finished it would become P1
then using it in a new cross you'd go back to the top of the chart again...

say you took it to F4
then hit one it with one of the original parent plants...
F4Bx1
hit that with its parent again...
F4Bx2

S1 hit with pollen from its parent = S2
Parent hit with S1 pollen = S1BC1 or S1Bx1... I have also seen it written as SB1

even more....
Awesome post! Can you post a link for the website?

Have been all over google and haven't been able to find anything that detailed. Thanks for the info!
 
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