(Fatman's) DIY nutrient mixing guide

[squarepusher]

i got an email from cropking the other day. here's the composition of its micros:

solubor/borax, B = 17.5%
Manganese sulfate, Mn = 32%
Zinc sulfate, Zn = 35%
Copper sulfate, Cu = 25%
DNF trace, Mo = 0.66% (i can practically ignore the other elements)

hydrobudy was close and i worked it out by hand.

what about Iron?

 

[Crysmatic]

what about Iron?

cropking repackages its micros into ziploc bags without any labels. they sell a 5 lb bag of iron dpta 11%. i have miller brand iron eddha at 6%. one pound came in its own package, with a label. verify what you have before you use it! hydro buddy doesn't know what you use unless you tell it. i recommend calculating micros by hand. once you know the elemental %, the hand calc is super fast.

crop king has told me not to use any edta chelates as it's poisonous to plants. and really, unless you're a noob, you have a pH pen and you keep it within a very narrow range...so you don't need chelates (or pH perfect). there's no way a respectable grower would let pH go from 4.0 to 10.0. even my diy nutes come out around 6.5 before pH down, and they're buffered (5% ammonium will do this i.e. gg calcium nitrate).

i've sold my mix to a couple local growers, and it may reach some larger operations soon. it won't be long before i'm using haifa minerals, and mixing up 5 gal pails. and to think 8 months ago i was reading an's website to learn about nutes...thank you squarepusher!

 

[squarepusher]

cropking repackages its micros into ziploc bags without any labels. they sell a 5 lb bag of iron dpta 11%. i have miller brand iron eddha at 6%. one pound came in its own package, with a label. verify what you have before you use it! hydro buddy doesn't know what you use unless you tell it. i recommend calculating micros by hand. once you know the elemental %, the hand calc is super fast.

crop king has told me not to use any edta chelates as it's poisonous to plants. and really, unless you're a noob, you have a pH pen and you keep it within a very narrow range...so you don't need chelates (or pH perfect). there's no way a respectable grower would let pH go from 4.0 to 10.0. even my diy nutes come out around 6.5 before pH down, and they're buffered (5% ammonium will do this i.e. gg calcium nitrate).

i've sold my mix to a couple local growers, and it may reach some larger operations soon. it won't be long before i'm using haifa minerals, and mixing up 5 gal pails. and to think 8 months ago i was reading an's website to learn about nutes...thank you squarepusher!

hey Crys

Good news, looks like you are up and rolling full force now.

Iron Chelate is poisonous? I would really like to hear them explain that one more, considering they seem to be the standard in the industry

Advanced Nutrients uses them

 

[Crysmatic]

hey Crys

Good news, looks like you are up and rolling full force now.

Iron Chelate is poisonous? I would really like to hear them explain that one more, considering they seem to be the standard in the industry

Advanced Nutrients uses them

crop king told me that EDTA is poisonous to plants - they didn't elaborate. take it for what it's worth - they sell iron DPTA, and i've been using EDDHA. It can't be too bad. they're more expensive than sulfates, and imo it's more of a marketing tool than an actual need. chelates have their use on field crops, but indoors in hydroponics, in a neutral medium, with RO water, controlled pH, it's a non issue. they don't hurt anything, but they're not necessary.

and yes, Advanced Nutrients uses them. everybody is copying everybody...and that's how something becomes a 'standard' in the industry. some nutes are just repackaged ag products...which explains why chelates are popular in hydro now.

how would you justify 1,000-10,000% markups? make it seem like voodoo, call yourself an expert, talk above your customer's head, make huge claims, appeal to people's greed, have a guarantee...all classic marketing.

 

[squarepusher]

crop king told me that EDTA is poisonous to plants - they didn't elaborate. take it for what it's worth - they sell iron DPTA, and i've been using EDDHA. It can't be too bad. they're more expensive than sulfates, and imo it's more of a marketing tool than an actual need. chelates have their use on field crops, but indoors in hydroponics, in a neutral medium, with RO water, controlled pH, it's a non issue. they don't hurt anything, but they're not necessary.

and yes, Advanced Nutrients uses them. everybody is copying everybody...and that's how something becomes a 'standard' in the industry. some nutes are just repackaged ag products...which explains why chelates are popular in hydro now.

how would you justify 1,000-10,000% markups? make it seem like voodoo, call yourself an expert, talk above your customer's head, make huge claims, appeal to people's greed, have a guarantee...all classic marketing.

I would like to hear them back that up more. While I do agree that most nutrient formulas are overpriced, I do think they have quality formulas. For example, Botanicare makes a very reputable Cal+Mag product

yup, there it is, Iron EDTA.

So, it seems to be, the industry, vs Crop King right now. I've tried researching, and haven't found anything about Iron EDTA being poisonous to plants.

 

[Crysmatic]

if they knew that their base nutes were calcium deficient in most cases, why didn't they add a few cents' worth of calcium nitrate, instead of packaging it separately and charging 1000x more? is there integrity in that? it may be a quality product, but there's very little value for your money. they're marketing products to cash croppers and med growers with a 400w light alike. also, botanicare's organic line is on the high side for heavy metals.

i can't find the correspondence that said edta is poisonous. i'm sending them an email asking for a reference.

daniel fernandez gives a case for iron dpta being a good compromise between stability, and durability.
http://scienceinhydroponics.com/2010/08/iron-sources-in-hydroponics-which-one-is-the-best.html

 

[squarepusher]

if they knew that their base nutes were calcium deficient in most cases, why didn't they add a few cents' worth of calcium nitrate, instead of packaging it separately and charging 1000x more? is there integrity in that? it may be a quality product, but there's very little value for your money. they're marketing products to cash croppers and med growers with a 400w light alike. also, botanicare's organic line is on the high side for heavy metals.

i can't find the correspondence that said edta is poisonous. i'm sending them an email asking for a reference.

daniel fernandez gives a case for iron dpta being a good compromise between stability, and durability.
http://scienceinhydroponics.com/2010/08/iron-sources-in-hydroponics-which-one-is-the-best.html

thanks for the link, good point you make

 

[Crysmatic]

chelation

here's the response from crop king:
"EDTA is toxic to plants. I do not have a reference at my finger tips. We use no EDTA chelated fertilizers in the fertilizers we have blended and in what we suggest for commercial growers. Many hobby fertilizers and some commercial fertilizers contain EDTA chelated ingredients."

note the term 'hobby', as in people who don't necessarily understand growing in depth. it makes it easy to market overpriced nutes to them.

i found this synopsis:


the main point was that chelators aid uptake of micro-nutrients, and other metals like lead, arsenic, cadmium etc. hemp is so good at uptaking heavy metals that it was used to clean up the soil after Chernobyl (nucular plant explosion). we should be very wary of ANY heavy metal in our fertilizer. the last sentence was that edta lowered germination rates, and slowed growth.

fwiw, pure blend pro was some of the dirtiest, and canna is one of the cleanest fertilizer tested.

some people love spray-n-grow. its analysis shows significant nickel, not much else. gh contains cobalt, which not many other ferts advertise.

i'm searching for other references on edta. regardless of whether edta is poisonous, iron is the only mineral that needs shielding, and dpta is much better.

 

[Bobby Smith]

OMG............great thread, but after reading it for the last two days my eyes are bleeding.

Decided on a whim last night to try to mix up my own CalMag and would love if one of you could confirm that this recipe (and the three products I bought) are "okay" and won't burn up my plants - there are two references to CalMag in this thread, one where someone is confused on the liter/gallon conversion and the most recent one where there's a discussion of some kind of iron that may or may not be bad for plants (that's just to prove to you that I've read this whole thread).

Crysmatic, when my brain wakes back up I'm gonna have some questions for you about your hydro formula (not your subsequent coco formula).

Here's the formula (original poster is unknown):

Cal-mag is a cheap concoction of calcium nitrate, magnesium sulfate and chelated iron sold at an exorbitant price, about 18$ per pint, for use in hydroponics.
CalMag is very handy during flowering where plants use a lot of magnesium and increased calcium. I use it during final flush to stave off magnesium deficiencies.

This recipe costs about 1$ per gallon, and the ingredients can be gotten cheaply online

This recipe is from a friend of mine online, 'fatman', who does fertilizer analysis

fatmans Cal-Mag

ppm
Nitrogen 200
Magnesium 120
Calcium 259
Sulfur 160
Iron 10.00


Grams (ounces)
Calcium Nitrate 488.9
(17.25)
Magnesium Sulfate 464.0 (16.37)
Iron Chelate 38.57 (1.36)

Volume of Stock Solutions 1 gallon
Dilution Rate 100 to 1

And here's the three things I bought on Ebay last night (I already have a scale):







Thanks in advance guys, and will be delving further into this in the near future.

 

[pikes peak 69]

I tried the cal nit with mg sul, and when mixed I got chalk. I believe it's the sul and the cal that can't be mixed together in to high of a concentrate.

So I found Mg nit and used it instead of the epsom.

Here's my mix. Take it for what it's worth.

Cal/Mag

Need about 165 ppm of Calcium
Need about 54 ppm of Magnesium

Use 5 ml of Stock Solution per gallon of Reservoir water:
For 1 gallon of Stock Solution to dilute:
Calcium Nitrate 2592.618 grams
Magnesium Nitrate 1669.908 grams

ppm analysis
Compound Actual Predicted % Error
Nitrogen N 199.454 ---- ----
Phosphorus P 0 ---- ----
Potassium K 0 ---- ----
Calcium Ca 165 165 0
Magnesium Mg 54 54 0
Sulfur S 0 ---- ----
Iron Fe 0.005 ---- ----
Boron B 0 ---- ----
Manganese Mn 0 ---- ----
Zinc Zn 0 ---- ----
Copper Cu 0 ---- ----
Molybdate Mo 0 ---- ----
N from Nitrates NO3 127.54 ---- ----
N from Ammonia NH4 11.594 ---- ----
N from Urea (NH2)2CO 0 ---- ----
Chlorine Cl 0 ---- ----
Sodium Na 0 ---- ----


Hope that posted correctly.
Here it is in a another form. Sorry I'm computer stupid.

 

[obsoul33t]

does anyone have the recipe for the original hammerhead 9/18 derived from sulfate of potash and mono potassium phosphate ?

the new stuff is not the same and they now only sell in quart size . i am alomst out of my 6 gallon jug of the original hammhead ....

id be glad to kick some beans to the one who helps ...

i tried to read through this thread but my life is full of so many distractions i can never get far enough to grasp it

cheers

 

[Bobby Smith]

I tried the cal nit with mg sul, and when mixed I got chalk. I believe it's the sul and the cal that can't be mixed together in to high of a concentrate.

So I found Mg nit and used it instead of the epsom.

Here's my mix. Take it for what it's worth.

Cal/Mag

Need about 165 ppm of Calcium
Need about 54 ppm of Magnesium

Use 5 ml of Stock Solution per gallon of Reservoir water:
For 1 gallon of Stock Solution to dilute:
Calcium Nitrate 2592.618 grams
Magnesium Nitrate 1669.908 grams

ppm analysis
Compound Actual Predicted % Error
Nitrogen N 199.454 ---- ----
Phosphorus P 0 ---- ----
Potassium K 0 ---- ----
Calcium Ca 165 165 0
Magnesium Mg 54 54 0
Sulfur S 0 ---- ----
Iron Fe 0.005 ---- ----
Boron B 0 ---- ----
Manganese Mn 0 ---- ----
Zinc Zn 0 ---- ----
Copper Cu 0 ---- ----
Molybdate Mo 0 ---- ----
N from Nitrates NO3 127.54 ---- ----
N from Ammonia NH4 11.594 ---- ----
N from Urea (NH2)2CO 0 ---- ----
Chlorine Cl 0 ---- ----
Sodium Na 0 ---- ----


Hope that posted correctly.
Here it is in a another form. Sorry I'm computer stupid.

Thanks, much appreciated - although I know dick about all this, wouldn't that be a little too much nitrogen in your finished product?

Also (had a rest so my brain has started to recover), with how smart and thorough you guys/gals are, I'm surprised that there's not more references to nute profiles fitting certain grow situations; I know there was Fatman's HP Aero DTW (I run HP aero recirc), and JK talking about the needs for his trees differing from his 2oz plants, but not a lot else in terms of what nutes might be needed by someone running 1500CO2 vs. 300, as well as differing light intensities (i.e., I imagine a 250W grow is gonna differ from a 1000W grow in terms of nutes needed/desired by the plant); then there's RH/VPD, etc.

Come to think of it, there have been some mention of matching some nutes to certain environmental (and other) factors, but I'd love some more (if others agree that it could be useful).

I'm not pretending to know any of the answers to any of these questions, but with how smart the people on this thread are I thought it'd be a waste if you guys/gals didn't throw your $.02 in.............or at least, when discussing a nute profile that has worked well for you, give some other details of your grow so that others can compare (crysmatic went from aero to coco, I know that, but under what lights, roughly how far from the lights, average temps, average plant size, indica/sativa, etc.......if you don't have all that info not a biggie, but something tells me that most of you do).

My setup is totally left field batshit nuts so there's not gonna be anyone I can directly compare to (and steal their formulation), but I could pull pieces from someone else using an aero delivery system, 1500CO2, SOG (2oz-ish finish weights), and VERY high PAR/LUX at my canopy.

Thanks again everybody; really an awesome thread :)

 

[Bobby Smith]

I tried the cal nit with mg sul, and when mixed I got chalk. I believe it's the sul and the cal that can't be mixed together in to high of a concentrate.

So I found Mg nit and used it instead of the epsom.

Here's my mix. Take it for what it's worth.

Cal/Mag

Need about 165 ppm of Calcium
Need about 54 ppm of Magnesium

Use 5 ml of Stock Solution per gallon of Reservoir water:
For 1 gallon of Stock Solution to dilute:
Calcium Nitrate 2592.618 grams
Magnesium Nitrate 1669.908 grams

ppm analysis
Compound Actual Predicted % Error
Nitrogen N 199.454 ---- ----
Phosphorus P 0 ---- ----
Potassium K 0 ---- ----
Calcium Ca 165 165 0
Magnesium Mg 54 54 0
Sulfur S 0 ---- ----
Iron Fe 0.005 ---- ----
Boron B 0 ---- ----
Manganese Mn 0 ---- ----
Zinc Zn 0 ---- ----
Copper Cu 0 ---- ----
Molybdate Mo 0 ---- ----
N from Nitrates NO3 127.54 ---- ----
N from Ammonia NH4 11.594 ---- ----
N from Urea (NH2)2CO 0 ---- ----
Chlorine Cl 0 ---- ----
Sodium Na 0 ---- ----


Hope that posted correctly.
Here it is in a another form. Sorry I'm computer stupid.

Thanks, much appreciated - although I know dick about all this, wouldn't that be a little too much nitrogen in your finished product?

Also (had a rest so my brain has started to recover), with how smart and thorough you guys/gals are, I'm surprised that there's not more references to nute profiles fitting certain grow situations; I know there was Fatman's HP Aero DTW (I run HP aero recirc), and JK talking about the needs for his trees differing from his 2oz plants, but not a lot else in terms of what nutes might be needed by someone running 1500CO2 vs. 300, as well as differing light intensities (i.e., I imagine a 250W grow is gonna differ from a 1000W grow in terms of nutes needed/desired by the plant); then there's RH/VPD, etc.

Come to think of it, there have been some mention of matching some nutes to certain environmental (and other) factors, but I'd love some more (if others agree that it could be useful).

I'm not pretending to know any of the answers to any of these questions, but with how smart the people on this thread are I thought it'd be a waste if you guys/gals didn't throw your $.02 in.............or at least, when discussing a nute profile that has worked well for you, give some other details of your grow so that others can compare (crysmatic went from aero to coco, I know that, but under what lights, roughly how far from the lights, average temps, average plant size, indica/sativa, etc.......if you don't have all that info not a biggie, but something tells me that most of you do).

My setup is totally left field batshit nuts so there's not gonna be anyone I can directly compare to (and steal their formulation), but I could pull pieces from someone else using an aero delivery system, 1500CO2, SOG (2oz-ish finish weights), and VERY high PAR/LUX at my canopy.

Thanks again everybody; really an awesome thread :)

 

[squarepusher]

Grams (ounces)
Calcium Nitrate 488.9
(17.25)
Magnesium Sulfate 464.0 (16.37)
Iron Chelate 38.57 (1.36)
[/B]

This looks like a solid Cal-Mag formula

does anyone have the recipe for the original hammerhead 9/18 derived from sulfate of potash and mono potassium phosphate ?

the new stuff is not the same and they now only sell in quart size . i am alomst out of my 6 gallon jug of the original hammhead ....

id be glad to kick some beans to the one who helps ...

i tried to read through this thread but my life is full of so many distractions i can never get far enough to grasp it

cheers

hello sir. Here is the formula for 0-9-18 Hammerhead, 1 Liter size original version
KH2PO4 Potassium Phosphate: 95 grams
K2SO4 Potassium Sulfate: 123 grams


enjoy! :)

 

[kuz]

Plantex csm+b

Anybody use it. I just bought all the nutes from an aquarium plant fertilizer shop online. They had this so I'll give it a try. $40 for a pound of everything in a six pack, delivered, About the same price as the dnf six pack. The plantex is expensive relative to everything else. And I'm not sure which calcium nitrate it is.

Found this posted online, and its what I'm going by;

Plantex CSM+B
Fe 6.53%
Mn 1.87%
Mg 1.40%
Zn 0.37%
Cu 0.09%
Mo 0.05%
B 1.18%

I weighed it out for 7 ppm iron.

 

[Crysmatic]

bobbi: that's the iron i currently use. i get my epsom salt for $7 for 9 lb from my local drug store. you bought greenhouse grade cal nit with ammonium nitrate (15.5%N). i've NEVER grown aero. please be sure you comprehend everything you read BEFORE making your own nutes. having said that, i doubt you'll kill your plants if you feel them normal ppm.

obsouleet: budboy299 posted the hammerhead recipe months ago. i've also posted a recipe for 0-1-2 in this thread, which you can scale up.

btw, mrdizzle tested the old and 'new' hammerhead. apparently the old one was mislabled, and is both 0-4-8; go by ppm/ec rather than ml/l. my .02

magnesium nitrate is somewhat harder to procure, and more expensive than epsom salts. with calmag, you automatically need epsom salts to get sulfur. i design extra calcium and magnesium in my nutes, which lets me use less expensive salts, because i don't have compatibility issues.

kuz: the Plantex CSM+B looks acceptable. 0.11 g/l will give you 7 ppm iron (is that what you got?). it's not as flexible as individual minerals, and it looks better than dnf trace.

i think daniel fernandez answered my cobalt question, you don't need it:
http://scienceinhydroponics.com/category/cobalt

 

[Bobby Smith]

Crysmatic, I think I've got it; the only issue I'm unsure of is what nutes to mix in what order.

I understand you wanna go from least soluble to mosts soluble when mixing, so I think I'd put in my calcinit, mix thoroughly; put in my mag, mix thoroughly; and then put in my iron and mix thoroughly..........right?

I have a pH meter and a TDS meter, so obviously I'll double-check that to death before spraying on my plants - I just want to make sure I don't make "chalk".

Next, does anyone use tap water and compensate in their nutes? I have an R/O filter but hate using it, so it seems like a no-brainer to get my tap water analyzed (7.5/150) and just compensate in my nutrient profile - besides the calcium carbonate, can't think of anything that would be an issue.

Finally, has anyone sent nute samples to an actual lab to have them tested? Somewhere like the lab below would be a good start, no? I was gonna volunteer to send in a shitload, but after buying the nutes and paying for the tests that'd run me a couple of grand - perhaps anyone else who'd be interested in getting the "true" profiles could PM me and we could start a "co-op" whereby everyone would be responsible for getting a few nutes "truly" analyzed and we could share the results with each other?

I'm not talking about base nutes (although we could), but more so the "mystical" additives that seem to work well and surrounded in mystery as to their aminos, vitamins, etc. - BTW, would a lab like the one below be able to measure "secret ingredients" or can they "only" handle chemical ferts? (just got off the phone with them, they only test chemical ferts, no vitamins or aminos........back to square 1).

I for one have no trouble sharing that info freely with the community, but I understand some people might be put-off by that so I'd respect their wishes - if we got a group of 5 or 10 of us willing to put up $200 each (6 tests per person, we could do more or less depending on demand), we could pretty much cover everything that needed to be covered, IMO.

Just a thought I had.

 

[Bobby Smith]

Just to clarify that last post, I wasn't talking about getting base A and B formulations, but rather getting analysis on the Roots Excelurators and other products that are pretty impossible to reverse engineer without a lab test.

 

[kuz]

the Plantex CSM+B looks acceptable. 0.11 g/l will give you 7 ppm iron (is that what you got?). it's not as flexible as individual minerals, and it looks better than dnf trace.

Yes, .1 gram per liter. Looking through the aquarium forums, I think I'm using 2 or 3 times what they do. Some of them add the Plantex a day after adding any MkP, so they dont get a reaction between phosphate and iron. And I've read ph of tap water could cause the iron to fall out, ph below 6 and it should be fine. Just passing on second hand info, fwiw.

 

[Crysmatic]

kuz: thanks for finding this.


[allegedly] synthetic chelators aid heavy metal uptake (edta, dpta, eddha) while organic chelators do not (citric acid, glycine). organic ferts can have higher heavy metals, and synth nutes shouldn't be chelated.

bobby: i don't believe in magic.