Graywolf Terpenator success!!

[1971]

For all who contacted wavegem for closed loops... I sell 150g to a little under 5lb models based on GW's design for a LOT cheaper. Hit me up and I can provide pics, pricing, etc

 

[neverbreak]

excellent thread, full of very good info. learned a lot readin through this just now. that terpenator sure means business! but damn does the resultin product look the bomb! 3k to build...how long did it take ya to put it together?

neverbreak

 

[1971]

Things are taking a little longer than expected as usual. I am doing everything around here, sometimes it wears you down. These units cost me around 3000 dollars for everything to make, that includes pumps, tanks, hoses, gauges, can tap, butane. They will probably retail around 5,000 if done legit.

I hope you are talking about a much larger version and not the IIIa design. ours is 1800 and the extra's you'd shop around for will cost you 1000-1500 depending on what you need

 

[Wavegem]

I didn't really get into production with these because there isn't enough people buying them. You really need to double your money and sell quantity. A few orders here and there isn't going to cut it. You make more selling oil, so the gold mine is in using the machine not manufacturing it.

 

[1971]

I totally agree, oil is where it is at, but no reason we can't get people into closed loops at a reasonable price. I'm simply giving people a less expensive option on an improved design without over complicating it. If you are selling a closed loop for 5k, I am not worried.

I feel Subzero is way overpriced for what you get, you have Carla at specialized selling one model and having no problem selling a one man operation 3 IIIa's when the customer wants to do volume, and I guess there is bhogart, but their quality control isn't there.

 

[Graywolf]

If you are processing a gram, I can see 30 minutes. Fill up all the racks with as thin as you can get it, I can guarantee that it's not done in 30 minutes. At 115 you fried a ton of terpenes. I feel like you are withholding information.

I came up with 115F by pulling a vacuum on a thin film and heating it up until the solvent bubbles readily escaped, and then measured the temperature with a heat gun. About 115F was where they freely escaped

That experiment showed that at 115F, the solvent is gone in the minimum period of time, preserving more terpenes than running it cooler and longer. It smells like what it was extracted from and my pump oil doesn't smell stronger than my product.

I've never run an oven full, with every rack packed, but have done any number of purges just like I described, including in class in front of 30 or so witnesses, who all sniff the results, so not sure what you think I'm withholding.

What I will say is that processing it past the point that the solvent is extracted, and turning it into wax instead of shatter, takes considerably longer than 30 minutes, especially since it isn't done in thin films.

 

[Graywolf]

@cap I've lurked but been really good :) how about you?? :) I've definitely upgraded from the Tami days!

@wave GW has many great and amazing contributions, unfortunately purging has never been one of them. I can understand 110-115 for production work where you need to cut down on purge times, but you sacrifice terps in the process. 95-105 is a better route. low and slow. Plus, you really need a high cfm 2 stage pump. not because you need the cfm's, but because those are the pumps that can pull a deeper vac. The way I see it, people who purge high make my product shine that much more!

Thanks for the feedback, always I recommend taking what you can use out of my offerings, and discarding the rest.

In my feeble minded dotage, I recommend against a 2 stage pump, because it isn't necessary to vacuum below about 29.5" Hg, and doing so can deplete your cannabinoids by boiling them at ambient temperatures. -29.5" Hg is only about 10, 669 microns, so even a single stage pump at under 100 microns is too much vacuum.

Note that at 25 microns, which is what a two stage is rated at, THC boils at about 30F.

 

[1971]

It would be nice if there was more testing in this area as so much is subjective. Who came up with the chart? I use to use smaller pumps per your recommendations, but visually/smell test wise, lower and longer seemed better. I wonder what has the least damage.... lower/longer or hotter/shorter? maybe in the end it doesn't matter?

 

[Wavegem]

I came up with 115F by pulling a vacuum on a thin film and heating it up until the solvent bubbles readily escaped, and then measured the temperature with a heat gun. About 115F was where they freely escaped

That experiment showed that at 115F, the solvent is gone in the minimum period of time, preserving more terpenes than running it cooler and longer. It smells like what it was extracted from and my pump oil doesn't smell stronger than my product.

I've never run an oven full, with every rack packed, but have done any number of purges just like I described, including in class in front of 30 or so witnesses, who all sniff the results, so not sure what you think I'm withholding.

What I will say is that processing it past the point that the solvent is extracted, and turning it into wax instead of shatter, takes considerably longer than 30 minutes, especially since it isn't done in thin films.

I just had to see if you had any tricks up your sleeve.

 

[Graywolf]

It would be nice if there was more testing in this area as so much is subjective. Who came up with the chart? I use to use smaller pumps per your recommendations, but visually/smell test wise, lower and longer seemed better. I wonder what has the least damage.... lower/longer or hotter/shorter? maybe in the end it doesn't matter?

Skyhighler is the source of the chart, and he used the calculator at http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/wrzenie.html

I decided short and fast was better, but the issue is complicated by the formation of wax/oil hydrates, which have more surface area and are highly aromatic, even with less terpene content. They are also tasty, but don't survive as long, because they have less terpenes than the shatter they were made from, are losing them faster, and they also have more surface area exposed to the oxygen in the atmosphere, so they oxidize faster.

Those aren't necessarily an issue if you are using it up fast, but they store less gracefully than the starting shatter.

We've used 85F starting temperatures under -29.5" Hg, ramping up in 10F increments until it waxed, usually by 130/140F, and we've stuffed the material in a 150/160F oven and incremented the vacuum up in stages, to produce stellar waxes, that are highly aromatic. Both ways work, and I've seen other procedures that seem to work, based on the pictures, but of course I can't do scratch and sniff on the photos.

The key to all of them, is that we extract far higher monoterpene levels than are palatable or smooth to vaporize, so we can afford to lose some during the purging process.

 

[1971]

yeah, it would be tough to know which method is better unless someone took the same source material and did it both was. maybe when things get slower for us, we might try it. complicating it might be size of the batches as we do larger batches.

what are your thoughts on that new butane outfit supposedly selling n-butane?

also, I remember somewhere where you were talking about that haskel pump you were using... how do you like it? I know you were talking about a shoot out, but if you did it, would you be using heat?

I know there is a reftec diablo that has better specs than the appion, there is a model one up from the diablo that has two 3/4hp motors but is twice as expensive, etc.

 

[Graywolf]

My two partners do larger batches in their private businesses, but I don't and don't see Skunk Pharm Research ever doing so, beyond our R&D project with Cascade TEK, where we will be processing commercial lots of material contracted to Oregon Medical Growers for extraction.

The major portion of my partners businesses is wax or shatter, while the only product that SPR pumps out in volume, is BHO absolutes for oral consumption by cancer or other ostensible end of life patient. We of course do other extractions for ourselves, and in class as demonstrations.

My thoughts on any butane source, is that it should be tested to see what the residuals actually are, vis a vis what they are advertized to be. I'm pretty sure that if Skyhighler hasn't tested it yet, he soon will and we will know for sure.

The Haskel won't be delivered until January, so no results yet. We did get a loaner Caresaver to test, but were dismayed to discover that it isn't an oil less compressor, and relies instead on an oil separator.

We will run a batch of junk material and test it for residual hydrocarbons before exposing any meds to such a system, where the butane with the meds, and the pump oil are in intimate contact.

Whether we use heat or not, and where, depends on what end product we are coveting. For cancer meds, we will be running 210F on the collection pot, but most of the time we won't have any heat on the collection pot.

I infer that we will be concerned about bragging rights at the shootout, so I don't plan to run pot heat, other than an occasional rinse with tap water to deice, but will run 250F on column heat, after the last dump, to speed up recovery time.

I have no plans to do so at the shootoff, but for ultimate bragging rights I would run the butane storage tank in a denatured alcohol and dry ice bath, and no heat on the collection tank. Wax pickup is low and the need to winterize less, so more monoterpenes can be retained at purge.

 

[1971]

So i've been speaking with the reftek people and they are going to be working on redesigning their handivac model to pass butane certification. currently it will work about twice as fast as the appion, is oilless, has teflon seals, will eventually come with nema 7 and an explosion proof motor.

I just bought one to test so that I can provide feedback and they are aware of how it is to be used. I personally almost always run my system cold, they know dimensions of the spools I use for the systems I build for people, how much liquid butane is pooled at the bottom of the spool, etc.

Since the caresaver doesn't have US certification and isn't oilless, there is no reason to spent all that money on a slow recovery machine when this unit will do a much better job at the same price.

The fact that this unit is beefier, safer to use as is with butane, has two motors which increases recovery times... well, what is not to like except for the higher price?

I'll be rep'ing these units and will be online to sell them once they are back in stock, which is end of january.

 

[Graywolf]

Looking forward to seeing the test results bro! We need a good oil less alternative to the Appion, which isn't standing up well in our application and they don't appear interested in serving our market.

Caregiver seems more interested, but as you note, it isn't an oil less, so we will be testing the Haskel on the Mk IV, after it is delivered in January.

 

[1971]

If you could pm me your contact info, you might be of valuable assistance to them to in regards to designing a more oil specific recovery system. For those who want to spend less, the diablo would be a great way to go too.

are you able to share what you paid for the haskel?

 

[Graywolf]

I PMed you contact information.

We got the longer Haskel model 59025-7, in case a seal leaked, it kept the butane and air chambers separated. Price delivered UPS Ground is $2,565. They have two cheaper models, one with the same pumping capacity, but without the separation.

A big consideration in my selection, is that I am not building this for my own use, I will be selling this as a system, and can't put anything in it that is not certified for the application, whether it works or not. It will go into a commercial application, subject to stringent scrutiny by local fire marshals, OSHA inspectors, and insurance underwriters.

I would be happy to discuss the pump environment with Reftek, and help them refine their pump for this market, if they will certify it for our application.

Any pump manufacturer who wants to take center stage in home entertainment, need to both offer an oil less unit that performs well and is certified for the application.

 

[1971]

my understanding is that is what they want to accomplish.

 

[Wavegem]

Hey so I did some tests running higher temps for shorter period of time and had good and bad results. I ran one strain and came out perfect 120f for 30 min and it wasn't ready so I bumped it up to 125. A few hours it looked pretty damn good. It still has plenty of flavor and minimal butane left very clean. I ran a different strain had sweet notes that were cooked off doing the same thing. My conclusion is depending on the strain using the terpene temperature chart you can get it hot as the chart says to preserve which terpenes are dominant that you want to keep.

 

[deacon1503]

Bump.

Any closed loop systems for sale at the moment? With all the ancillaries?

 

[sealed138]

I just picked up a bhogart system that works awesome. It has two ports on the collection pot so you can hook up two recovery pumps. It also has a water jacket for the collection pot.