Gypsum Anyone?

[Slownickel]

It takes extremes to drag folks back to the center.....

 

[Bulldog420]

This has been my question, do we really want to continually apply a lime that's CaCO3 to soils, knowing it can build up to what might be called toxic levels? @Bulldog420 ?

The only issue I've ever had with using bone (or blood) meals have been digging animals like raccoons. Once I got learned, that issue went away. In any event, it seems to me that if we're going to be processing animals, we *need* to use the whole thing. All the way down to the bones. Going this route addresses a couple of issues, even if possibly presenting new.

So adding lime would be a no no for me. Lime is high in Mg, and most cannabis growers that I have come across all have higher Mg levels due to low water quality. So adding Lime would take those Mg levels above 20% and ruins crops. How do I know, don't ask. However, look at any nutrient chart ever made, can you find a Ca toxicity on any chart? No, why not? Cause Ca toxicity doesn't exists in plants. You might quickly get a K deficiency due to the Ca pushing off the K sights, but no Ca toxicity.

When dealing with gypsum, which is Ca and sulfur, you are dealing with two elements that cannabis wants. When we are growing in high performing soils like we all do, sulfur should equal P, P should equal K. As we all know, K levels are high and needed in fruiting crops. So can sulfur to too high, for sure. However, the level of sulfur needed in our crops might be hard to over do.

@Slownickel double check? I would hate to give bad advice to Seamaiden. She has given nothing but great advice for years. Hate to savatage her knowledge with poor science from me. (sorry to keep tagging you, you are too awesome though)

 

[Slownickel]

Bulldog,

There are two kinds of lime, dolomitic and calcitic. Dolomite has Mg. Calcitic does not.... to adjust pH upwards, you need to add lime. We are in agreement with Dolomite. If someone is marginal on Mg, say 10% of the bases and has a very open medium, use some K-mag. It won't react like Mg SO4 or even dolomite...

 

[Homesteader]

Calcium = more pore space, better drainage better movement of water, turn sodium to salt leach the salt..etc. Lime may lower pH in high soil. Lime and gypsum......

 

[Slownickel]

I agree with nearly 100% they said, the best part was the water issues, unfortunately they didn't go into it enough.

The idea of applying lime on an alkaline soil with alkaline water, will take YEARS and will make problems worse. It will only work if you get good rains. For those in green houses or under plastic growing cannabis, Gypsum will be faster and quicker. The issue is not just about air space, Calcium is a nutrient and needs to be at a minimum of 80%, better off at 85%.

We eliminated ponding and sitting water in Honduras using both gypsum and lime (calcitic).

 

[Homesteader]

Lime

 

[Homesteader]

Talking about uniform application

 

[Seamaiden]

I agree with nearly 100% they said, the best part was the water issues, unfortunately they didn't go into it enough.

The idea of applying lime on an alkaline soil with alkaline water, will take YEARS and will make problems worse. It will only work if you get good rains. For those in green houses or under plastic growing cannabis, Gypsum will be faster and quicker. The issue is not just about air space, Calcium is a nutrient and needs to be at a minimum of 80%, better off at 85%.

We eliminated ponding and sitting water in Honduras using both gypsum and lime (calcitic).

This is what I've been driving at, adding CO3 on top of CO3 without it being flushed out or broken down by microbial activity will, in my mind at the very least but also according to some ag publications I've read, lead to keeping the pH pegged in a rather high range (in my experience in aquatic ornamentals both CaCO3 and CaCO3MgCO3 will keep the water column pH at around 8-8.5, making getting more Ca into the water column difficult without something called a calcium reactor, another story/issue).

So have we confirmed whether or not the bound S in gypsum will act as a fungicide? Because elemental S, sure, makes sense when one considers how sulfur vaporizers work and how they've been used through history. But bound S...? Another question. Does the SO4 molecule 'want' to break apart easily?

Lime

Again, mind=blown! Yes, it is completely counterintuitive to me to apply CaCO3 limes to high-pH soils. :D

 

[Homesteader]

 

[leadsled]

What happens with to cannabis with the levels of sulfur you are talking about? I use crab shell in my mix as well to to add some volume and chitin.

Plant can turn yellow, lack of N.

Lead,

Heard lots about you. Thanks for chipping in.

All is relative to where one is standing. If I am in an alkaline soil, with alkaline water, I would be using super phosphate (calcium phosphate), gypsum and powdered milk. Applying calcium carbonate to an alkaline soil in an annual crop just won't work under those conditions.

From the few soil analysis and water analysis that I have seen in Cali, Oregon and Colorado, the above is the norm.

In an acid soil, I would say lime to get your pH correct and then add gypsum on top, not necessary to mix it in as it is very soluble. I would make a 50/50 calcium carbonate/gypsum combination with say 15 to 20% compost or worm castings and spike it in around the plant. This gets rid of human error and lets the plant send roots to the concentration it likes. Calcium is trans-locatable in the roots. Roots that get Ca can send it to roots that don't have what they need. Great concept, works spectacularly.

Hard to generalize without knowing pH of the media/soil and of the water. There are huge bicarbonate issues in much of the water analysis that I have seen from Cali, Oregon and Colorado. When there is bicarbonates, the pH is over 7.5 or so.

Thanks for stepping up! Heard lots about you!

Good point about generalizing! I mentioned it, since some growers use solely gypsum in a soil mix.
IF the TCEC is there, have seen sulfur levels of over 1000ppm and then can cause issues (chemical and biological) until the levels drop.Can also cause problems with excess free
Regarding water. Prefer to first test the water and then address that as well to avoid the issues you mention rather than generalize about soil or water. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Slownickel]

Tony in one of the ICM posts in my thread applied 1 lb of gypsum per gallon in an old mix. Check out his results!

When you get a sample back like that, chances are you got a mouthful of gypsum in your sample. Retest. Also beware of terrible labs that are abound.

I run my S=K=P in ppms ala Carey Reams. Works spectacularly!!!!

 

[Homesteader]

I may have posted these already but just in case, I love these so why not.
These guys are sounding an awful lot like @Slownickel :) in the first video.

 

[Homesteader]

 

[Slownickel]

I may have posted these already but just in case, I love these so why not.
These guys are sounding an awful lot like @Slownickel :) in the first video.

Robbed to repost! Good job. Wish they had talked about the base distributions and why and how to use it reading an analysis correct! And he did mention 80% Ca!! He missed it slightly, 85% Ca at [email protected] is what will tell you . But you still need to run M3 to understand what is really in the soil, both mineral and available....

 

[Seamaiden]

We're moving away from CaSO4 here, aren't we? :p

Whew!! This set of videos makes me feel a whole lot better than the previous set discussing tillage/tilling. They should make more of them and then, IMO, could go just a little bit further in fleshing out the means to the ends. :D

I'm currently reading an article on a carbon farming project in Marin Co, CA, and finished another short piece about a 2yr trial on cover crops showing that forage radish does, by *far*, the best job at suppressing weeds. I'd have to scan them, unless you're already subscribed to Acres.

 

[Ecompost]

We're moving away from CaSO4 here, aren't we? :p

Whew!! This set of videos makes me feel a whole lot better than the previous set discussing tillage/tilling. They should make more of them and then, IMO, could go just a little bit further in fleshing out the means to the ends. :D

I'm currently reading an article on a carbon farming project in Marin Co, CA, and finished another short piece about a 2yr trial on cover crops showing that forage radish does, by *far*, the best job at suppressing weeds. I'd have to scan them, unless you're already subscribed to Acres.

yes agreed, not tilling, using mob grazing and mixed community cover crops, so not destroying soil glues is a better way to not just leach out N etc and in doing so make a good spot for N heavy weed types. maintaining fungal mass seems to be a critical factor in limiting access to N which in turn makes land hard work for weeds imo.
I was fascinated to see also the impacts of mob grazing on the latent seed bank, restoring previously thought lost native species. I understand this method isnt available to everyone but the results are quite spectacular where it is being used, and we can mimic this using other farm equipment and via the spreading of manures.

 

[Ecompost]

 

[Seamaiden]

Is anyone interested in the carbon farming project article? I'll scan and repost if you are. It's also got some resources for those who might be interested in calculating how much C their operation may or may not be sequestering.

Thanks so much for this video @Ecompost !! I want a love button for this video. I will have you know that I normally just don't have the patience to sit through a video this long (I didn't sit through this one, but...), but I made a point to watch this one.

EDIT: About halfway through Ray's video here and he's talking about how he grew up and what he'd been taught about the utility of tilling. I am brought immediately to think of Jethro Tull, who, IIRC, was the first to really discuss tilling. He came on the heels of the old Medieval ways, modernized, and for a while perhaps, made things better. Who could have envisioned what we have now?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jethro_Tull_(agriculturist)#Work

More than halfway through and right now I can't stop thinking about how the permaculture people out in Joshua Tree approach permaculture out here in the desert. They'll water trees and other perennials, but they won't cover crop, don't even think about it. We're limited as to what can be used for mulch out here because of the wind. Cover crops don't usually blow away. More thoughts later.

 

[Homesteader]

IMO both no till and deep till have a place. Limiting yourself to only no till is shooting yourself in the foot depending on how much area you are working. The colder spring soils in spring with no till makes sense to me.

 

[Seamaiden]

You know... I'm torn. I've said the same as you, but watching Ray again it's clear. Just looking at the soil that's *only* been tilled for 2yrs compared and contrasted to the other soils, using an easily repeatable experiment, makes the case for me.

In pots it makes little sense to me though. But, no one's being harmed in such an endeavor, so, more power to 'em!