I have some questions about watering.

[urban1026835]

Ime that kind of leaf wrinkle is from too many soluble nutrients in the solution. That plant looks vibrant green. From what I have seen pH problems generally manifest with yellowing, necrosis, abnormal purple stems, etc due to trace minerals not being available.

But then again I quit measuring pH long ago. ;)



I would think not. A deficiency I would expect to show as a deficiency, not as an overdose of another nutrient. Especially since Mg is needed for photosynthesis. However, I'm often wrong.

With respect,
P-

thanks I will put that one back in the memory..was more of a personal ? then a solution

 

[urban1026835]

as a semi new farmer (under 5 yrs) I soak all the info I can from all of you like a sponge. I figure whether relevant at the moment or not it may be one day.

 

[Patanjali]

im trying to say we should edumucate new farmers on PH and suggest at the very least a $5 test kit to learn about your water and its effects.

telling a new farmer to jump right into microbials and not worrying about what Ph stuff is seems ????

Here's some pH reading for beginners.

Soil Biology and pH by Jeff Lowenfels

The success of the AeroGarden, the first plug-and-grow aeroponic kitchen appliance, is testament to the fact that ordinary people do not understand the concept of pH and don’t want to deal with it in their growing situations. Make it so you can practice hydroponics without this chemistry barrier and they will come, apparently.


Frankly, the concept of pH also confuses soil gardeners. Heck, the definition of pH was inadvertently reversed in my book “Teaming With Microbes: A Gardener’s Guide to the Soil Food Web.” (Yes, some readers noticed; I received two “you made a mistake” notes. But that’s not as many as I thought I’d receive.) Fortunately, the mistake was corrected in time for the second printing.

In any case, soil gardeners have been told certain plants require acidic conditions- for example, rhododendrons and azaleas- or else they won’t grow. The solution advocated by most experienced gardeners is not dissimilar from what a hydroponics grower would do: adjust the pH with chemicals, such as agricultural lime, to make the soil more alkaline. To make alkaline soil more acid, we are told to add sulfur. Because they are chemical changes, these solutions work for a short time. But to me pH is a biological matter.

A bit of quick pH review is in order (if only to make amends for the mistake in my book). You may remember that pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution on a scale of 1 to 14; 1 being most acidic and 14 being most alkaline. A more technical description is that pH is the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions, H+. If you have lots of H+, the pH is low, or acidic. If you have few of them, the pH is high, or alkaline.

If you are adding fertilizers and using chemicals, you are stuck in the chemical realm. Organic gardeners, soil food webbies in particular, realize that pH has more to do with biology than it does with chemistry. That’s because of the way plant roots take up nutrients. Root hair surfaces are covered with positive electrical hydrogen cations. Think of these charges as ping-pong balls. If soil particles are small enough, their surfaces are covered by these ping-pong ball charges, both positive (cation) charges and negative (anion) charges. These cations are not limited to hydrogen; they also include calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, and ammonium. All are important plant nutrients.

When a root encounters a clay or organic particle, it can exchange one of its hydrogen cation for another positive one from the particle. It can choose from calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, ammonium and hydrogen, as these are all cations carried by clay and silt and are all, as luck would have it, major plant nutrients.

This is known, incidentally, as cation exchange capacity, or CEC. Sand and silt have low CECs, because they comprised of particles that are too large to hold electrical charges. This is why humus and clay are needed to make soil good. They are extremely small particles and can carry cations.

So, back to pH. Every time a plant root exchanges a hydrogen ion for a nutrient ion, it increases the concentration of hydrogen ions in solution. Thus, the pH goes down and things should become more acidic.

Ah, but things usually balance out because the positive cations on the root surface also attract negative charges. Here, hydroxy ions (OH-) are the exchange ping-pong balls, and addition of hydroxy ions lowers the concentration of hydrogen ions in the solution, and pH goes up.

I know this still sounds like chemistry and not biology. However, each plant has an optimum pH requirement. What soil growers need to know (and hydroponics growers don’t) is that the type of bacteria and fungi attracted to a plant’s rhizosphere by the plant’s exudates has a lot to do with setting this optimal pH. Bacteria produce a slim that raises the pH, and fungi produce acids that lower the pH. Since the plant is in control of the biology it attracts, in a natural system, it is the plant that determines the pH, and not some chemistry teacher.

So, while you may forget the chemistry of pH, at least remember there is a biological side. Do no harm to it, and you shouldn’t have to worry much about pH when you grow plants in soil. Moreover, the nutrient exchanges that occur above also have a lot to do with what kind of bacteria and fungi are attracted to the root zone as some like higher pH and others lower pH.

 

[Seamaiden]

could it be from the ph making n too available while locking out others?

Possibly, but it's not a scenario I personally have experienced so I can't really speak to it. What I have experienced is pH locking out for the most part. It is a good question, though.
@HashHead -- a pH of 6 is usually fine, but if you're using distilled, know that it's considered a solvent, and go from there. I personally only use distilled water if I'm using the Keurig or my iron.

Ime that kind of leaf wrinkle is from too many soluble nutrients in the solution. That plant looks vibrant green. From what I have seen pH problems generally manifest with yellowing, necrosis, abnormal purple stems, etc due to trace minerals not being available.

But then again I quit measuring pH long ago. ;)

If I didn't use the line of fertilizers the OP is using so extensively, I might agree with you here. Also, my only experience(s) with the crinkling (I call it a crepey appearance, but my spellcheck hates that word and often people don't know what I mean, so...) has been related to pH parameters being very out of whack. And I did a real boo boo this year that taught me that even if in organics, do not ignore pH. You don't necessarily have to futz with it, but don't ignore it if you're having problems that you're trying to get resolved. This seems to be especially true the smaller the container.

Right now I don't think the OP has much in the way of life in the soil, and whatever is there is still in its beginning stages, much as the OP is.

What I know is this--when I see crinkling like that, I begin playing with the pH, FIRST by using straight rainwater (I've shut off my RO/DI for now, can't conscientiously use it during such an extreme drought) and then mixing with my tap. If I still can't get it corrected then I look to the soil itself, and that is what turned out to be the issue earlier this year, a REALLY bad batch of soil, caused me HUGE problems even though I do everything 100% organically.

 

[urban1026835]

As always @Seamaiden thanks for the jewels. If I ever choose to run soil again it will be a different approach that's for sure.

 

[Patanjali]

Possibly, but it's not a scenario I personally have experienced so I can't really speak to it. What I have experienced is pH locking out for the most part. It is a good question, though.
@HashHead -- a pH of 6 is usually fine, but if you're using distilled, know that it's considered a solvent, and go from there. I personally only use distilled water if I'm using the Keurig or my iron.

If I didn't use the line of fertilizers the OP is using so extensively, I might agree with you here. Also, my only experience(s) with the crinkling (I call it a crepey appearance, but my spellcheck hates that word and often people don't know what I mean, so...) has been related to pH parameters being very out of whack. And I did a real boo boo this year that taught me that even if in organics, do not ignore pH. You don't necessarily have to futz with it, but don't ignore it if you're having problems that you're trying to get resolved. This seems to be especially true the smaller the container.

Right now I don't think the OP has much in the way of life in the soil, and whatever is there is still in its beginning stages, much as the OP is.

What I know is this--when I see crinkling like that, I begin playing with the pH, FIRST by using straight rainwater (I've shut off my RO/DI for now, can't conscientiously use it during such an extreme drought) and then mixing with my tap. If I still can't get it corrected then I look to the soil itself, and that is what turned out to be the issue earlier this year, a REALLY bad batch of soil, caused me HUGE problems even though I do everything 100% organically.

Not saying this isn't so, just asking for my benefit. I've never seen this wrinkle from pH and I'm curious. Why do you think the leaves are so green if the pH is out of whack? Would not the Mg uptake be hampered and therefore photosynthesis retarded? I always see the typical CalMg lockout/yellowing/necrosis when pH is off.

I run the RO and feed the waste water to the outdoor plants. Makes me feel a little better about my water usage. ;)

P-

 

[Hashhead710]

Since I've posted this feed I haven't used any nutes and just watered and the new growth on the plant is doing very well, and the leaves aren't curled nearly as much as they were when I posted the photo. The soil I use is Fox Farm Ocean Forest. Thank you everybody for all the input.

 

[Hashhead710]

I'm curious, if I put some dry ice in my tent and let it off gas would that help my plants because it's off gassing co2 or am I just baked? Or maybe put it outside of my tent by the intake fan?

 

[Seamaiden]

I think it'd be cool, especially since Halloween is coming up. Beyond that, I have no idea.

Not saying this isn't so, just asking for my benefit. I've never seen this wrinkle from pH and I'm curious. Why do you think the leaves are so green if the pH is out of whack? Would not the Mg uptake be hampered and therefore photosynthesis retarded? I always see the typical CalMg lockout/yellowing/necrosis when pH is off.

I run the RO and feed the waste water to the outdoor plants. Makes me feel a little better about my water usage. ;)

P-

I wish I could tell you definitively! And that's just the thing with that crinkling shit, I assumed many of the same things you're saying. But it wasn't until I began working on shifting pH parameters that I've seen it change (usually I need to shift it downward, because I prefer to use unfiltered well water and it is rather alkaline and basic). And here's where it gets REALLY interesting--I've *only* ever observed it on plants I'm growing inside. :o

I don't really pay attention to Mg, nowhere nearly as much as I do Ca.