If you have chemistry questions....

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C

cctt

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Congrats on the toke!
I have another chemistry question for you... there are some foliar calcium carbonate products which claim to increase plants' available CO2. I'm wondering how (or if) this would work. My cursory understanding is that CO3 (2-) can be protonated to HCO3 (1-) then further to H2CO3 (carbonic acid). I'm not sure, though, if you simply spray leaves with CaCO3 where they're to find all the protons to make this conversion. Provided by the plant?
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Congrats on the toke!
I have another chemistry question for you... there are some foliar calcium carbonate products which claim to increase plants' available CO2. I'm wondering how (or if) this would work. My cursory understanding is that CO3 (2-) can be protonated to HCO3 (1-) then further to H2CO3 (carbonic acid). I'm not sure, though, if you simply spray leaves with CaCO3 where they're to find all the protons to make this conversion. Provided by the plant?

Can't say for sure, this could happen lots of ways (or it might not happen at all).

If it gets in through the stomata the intercellular space usually has plenty of protons around. This is the normal way a body gets rid of reactive oxygen species like CO3, H2CO3 rapidly and spontaneously degrades to H2O and CO2 once formed.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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I bet ya got seriously high after a 6 month break, huh? I took a year off once....and the first bowl was a 2 hour spatial/visual trip that was very intense at times. Totally blew me away.


Definitely. Tolerance has climbed pretty rapidly but I'm still getting retard high pretty much every time I smoke. The first time was out of control and I was smoking some low-grade stuff.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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Nice to see you back and on the boards, brother.

I keep hearing about people running very low EC and getting good results. When I tried it, I got massive deficiencies.

To the contrary, when I send my EC up as high as 1.9 I get no burn. RH is high, at 75%, temps under control at 80F.

Am I misreading things, I seriously think I see signs of deficiencies at EC 1.3 in bloom!
 
C

cctt

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I keep hearing about people running very low EC and getting good results. When I tried it, I got massive deficiencies.


I'm with you on that one. I used to run it up as high as 3.2, even (with good results), but now have pulled back to 2.0 max and am doing fine. This feels like "low EC" to me, but every system is different.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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I'm with you on that one. I used to run it up as high as 3.2, even (with good results), but now have pulled back to 2.0 max and am doing fine. This feels like "low EC" to me, but every system is different.

I'm dialing in a 27 gallon tub RDWC system. What system were you running?
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Nice to see you back and on the boards, brother.

I keep hearing about people running very low EC and getting good results. When I tried it, I got massive deficiencies.

To the contrary, when I send my EC up as high as 1.9 I get no burn. RH is high, at 75%, temps under control at 80F.

Am I misreading things, I seriously think I see signs of deficiencies at EC 1.3 in bloom!


You're running high RH and it's not fluctuating much I gather. This reduces transpiration.

Think of the plant as a straw. It sucks nutrients up through the roots and moves them to the top of the plant. The rate of transpiration affects the magnitude of the "suction" on the straw.

Higher rate of transpiration = More water/nutrients pulled up into the plant.

Lower rate of transpiration (you) = Less water/nutrients pulled up into the plant.

This is why I recommend fluctuating RH between a min-max value. In nature even during high RH conditions due to the mixing of the atmosphere wind can bring in pockets of lower/higher RH at various times.
So even if there's a period of really swampy RH the plant is still going through this ebb and flow of transpiration. Indoors there is far less fluctuation and so I think you're noticing this effect.

In an idealized model the way I'd think my way around this this is:

1. Feed at high RH (to prevent burning).
2. Drift RH down until you see the beginning of possible overnute.
3. Drift RH up a few points beyond where you saw the burn (2-3%) and call that your new minimum for that particular time in the feeding regimen.
4. As you raise/lower nute levels do this process again and get new minimum value.

As prophylactic measures:

1. If you spot overnute immediately drop temps and raise RH to prevent further damage.2. If you spot nute deficiency, conversely, bring the RH down and increase temps a bit to see if your girl just needs to drink more before actually bumping up the nute in question.

Once you have a feel for what that strain wants fluctuate the RH as follows:

Lights on (RH Maximum) ------> Midday (RH Minimum) ---------> Lights off (RH Maximum) --------> Mid-night (~RH min however close you can get to it) -------> Lights on (RH Maximum)


Something to remember about plants is that they don't really have muscles, so nature has to do most of their work for them.

When we talk about favorability of reactions we think immediately about thermodynamics, from the chemistry perspective.

Something which is very important in thermodynamics is that a system in equilibrium does no work.

In effect what the plant has found a way to make a living on is the IMBALANCE of nature. The idea that RH can be different in one quadrant of the plant versus another (in an instantaneous moment), the fact that temperature changes over the day, all of these imbalances actually provide the source of energy for many of a plants jobs.

If you put your girls in a clean room with perfectly controlled environment some of their systems (like transpiration) will cease almost entirely--because the system will be at equilibrium.

So there are three scenarios here.

1. Perfect equilibrium (full stop on transpiration)
2. The approximation to "perfect" that growers get to (never really truly stop transpiration).
3. Fluctuation.

I'm willing to be yield would order in this list from highest to lowers 3>2>1.

The thing about using a fluctuation, though, is that it does need to be optimized. If you're just being random about it, it could easily end up hurting you more than helping you. The idea is to keep the plant in the conditions it needs instantaneously rather than approximating a "perfect" value and playing set-it-forget-it.
 
Capulator

Capulator

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Squiggly when you put bleach in water, and the chlorine evaporates out, is there any Cl left behind in the the solution?

From what I understand sodium hypochlorite and chloride are two different things, but I wanted to get your take on it.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Squiggly when you put bleach in water, and the chlorine evaporates out, is there any Cl left behind in the the solution?

From what I understand sodium hypochlorite and chloride are two different things, but I wanted to get your take on it.


Hypochlorite and chlorine are in equilibrium with each other in solution. As chlorine evaporates, more hypochlorite is converted to chlorine. There shouldn't be a lot of free Cl ions (there will be some), but there will be Cl2 gas.
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
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When I add hypochlorite to my res am I adding any Cl?
 
C

cctt

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As I understand the lower the pH of a solution containing NaClO the more Cl2 will be released as gas.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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When I add hypochlorite to my res am I adding any Cl?


Yes, but not much.

HCLO (the reactive oxygen species, ROS, that is the business end of bleach) breaks down via a disproportionation reaction which is a glorified redox reaction. In this type of reaction a species is simultaneously oxidized and reduced to form two new species.

IE: HCLO +H +Cl -----> Cl2 H2O in the form X + H + B ------> Y + Z, where x,y,z=species H=reductant and B=oxidant)
vs
the usual X(oxidized) + H -----> X(reduced) type reaction.

Under basic conditions you will be forming a good deal of chloride ions from free Cl2 gas in solution. Under acidic conditions you will form chlorine gas.
The balanced reaction here is:

Cl2 + H2O ----------------> HCLO + Cl- + H+​
<---------------​

Acidic conditions push the equilibrium of the reaction to the left, basic one push it to the right.

However, the key word here is equilibrium. Under any conditions (especially those in the mid range where we are operating) some of all of these species are present in solution when bleach is added.

That's the nature of all equilibrium reactions, there is always some of anything--you can alter the proportions based on heat, energy supplied, reactants added. We think of the thing sort of as a backwards old school lady-justice type scale.

So we treat the equilibrium arrows like they are the fulcrum on the scale--and the scale is as though it works backwards from expectations. Thus:

If we add a bunch of HCLO+ to solution we will shift the equilibrium to the left. Or if we add a bunch of Cl2 gas to solution we will shift it right.

The basicity/acidity of the solution push the equilibrium to one side or another, but they don't effectively "turn off" the equilibrium ever.

However, like I said under the acidic conditions you are mostly producing chlorine gas--there isn't a whole lot of Cl- floating around (comparatively almost none).
 
squiggly

squiggly

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When I add hypochlorite to my res am I adding any Cl?


I should add, if you have something in the res that makes an insoluble product with Cl then as it takes away Cl ions from solution more Cl ions with be evolved (to maintain equilibrium--it works the same way in reverse).

So for those purposes yes you are adding Cl for sure.
 
Smallzz

Smallzz

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Squiggly, I had an idea a while back. Would plants be able to break down nitrous oxide if it was introduced at the root level in say an aeroponic system?

if so, do you think it might be something worth investigating if I ever found myself with the time and money?
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Squiggly, I had an idea a while back. Would plants be able to break down nitrous oxide if it was introduced at the root level in say an aeroponic system?

if so, do you think it might be something worth investigating if I ever found myself with the time and money?


I don't see why you would want them to. Can you elaborate as to what your intentions are with this?

I mean I don't see why they might not take the stuff up, but I can't tell you what might happen after that. I know N2O is used as a cellular messenger in plants, so that might cause some issues.

Either way, I think this is a bad plan, nitrous oxide is an anaesthetic and I don't recommend opening a tank of it in a grow room.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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I don't see why you would want them to. Can you elaborate as to what your intentions are with this?

I mean I don't see why they might not take the stuff up, but I can't tell you what might happen after that. I know N2O is used as a cellular messenger in plants, so that might cause some issues.

Either way, I think this is a bad plan, nitrous oxide is an anaesthetic and I don't recommend opening a tank of it in a grow room.

I second this- nitrous oxide is VERY EXPLOSIVE! Do not use it anywhere near sparks or open flames.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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I second this- nitrous oxide is VERY EXPLOSIVE! Do not use it anywhere near sparks or open flames.


Well it's not really explosive on it's own, it's not even flammable, but it is a powerful oxidizer--so it can certainly potentiate an explosion or increase the risk of fire hazards.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Well it's not really explosive on it's own, it's not even flammable, but it is a powerful oxidizer--so it can certainly potentiate an explosion or increase the risk of fire hazards.

Gets really exciting anywhere near gasoline...
 
Smallzz

Smallzz

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I get really excited anywhere near nitrous oxide.

Thanks for the help squiggly. I was just curious if you thought it would have any benefit or not.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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I get really excited anywhere near nitrous oxide.

Thanks for the help squiggly. I was just curious if you thought it would have any benefit or not.


Even if the dangers weren't there I still don't think it would be very beneficial. From a cost/benefit standpoint I think there's no question it would be a waste unless you have access to lots and lots of free N2O.

This is all just in my professional opinion though, I could be totally wrong--but the dangers are still enough to warrant steering clear of this path in my opinion.
 

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