azmmjadvocates
- 442
- 43
As i understand it, what you say is only actually relevant for Calcium and Boron which are passively taken up by root tips with water, all other nutrients are actively removed from the rhizosphere independent of the rate of water absorption/transpiration.
Also VPD in horticulture refers to Vapour Pressure Deficit specifically, not differential. Essentially both mean the same thing, just ones technically correct and the others not.
Higher EC needs will be necessary as PPFD (up to ~1500ppfd), CO2 levels (up to ~1200ppm) and/or temperature increases (up to ~89F), less so as VPD optimizes(~0.8-1.2 kPa).
First I must say Squiggly I thought you were a smart guy before, but man hats off to you, brother wherever you land after school, you will be doing great, thanks for your input and challenging my thinking as well.
I dont think that is a hard sell just like differing ph effects on differing nutrients. The question is like with PH the range in which those temp fluctuations have relatively little impact, Fatman's argument of Rez temps come to mind relating to DO, there are many people such as myself who are happy with their results and do things in opposition to the NORM. There is so much not in just chemistry but relating to plant physics (like remove the root cap that controls gravity and roots dont know up from down) and new discoveries in plant biology with new funny names, that is just getting discovered that may have contradictory roles to play as well that originate a lot of times from a slice of science or ganja gurus methodology as opposed to the holistic science of chemistry, biology and plant physics, such as research on how plants react to touch, other plants, and gravity.
If you can find a place where Fatty hasn't been banned, id love to have the discussion with him. Ive actually wanted to discuss with him for some time now why his opinion on VPD is so... flying in the face of 30+ years of science establishing the factors of stomatal conductance, the photosynthesis-transipiration dilemma, the fact that transpiration efficiency is genetically determined (we're even finding out which genes such as ERECTA and GPA1), etc., etc. Theres absolutely nothing ive seen that compliments his theory that increased transpiration = increased growth. It seems like an oversimplified concept of 'this is how i force more into the plant'.This Is a debate id love to see but hate to convolute and sidetrack Squiggleys awesome thread on Chemistry. I don't look at VPD charts, I look at my $350.00 electric bill for a 3000 sq ft home (24 plants me and wife) in Arizona with a pool mind you. As well as me paying much less for nutes because i'm able to run it real real lean, not that I pay much for nutes anyway lol.
I also believe as Fatman stated previously that VPD charts were created for high water content plants like Tomatoes and have little bearing on cannabis. That isn't saying what everyone else is doing doesn't work for then, I just will keep pointing out how versatile this plant is.
Like I said I'd love to hash all this out in another thread, peaceful of course, and I have an open mind. But my electric bill will play a part in my decision.
Lets discuss this no further on this particular thread, as to not hijack squiggly's awesome thread, unless s/he shows an interest in discussing it as well.
finding that my calcium nitrate is flocculating out when i'm adding it to my res after adding Jack's MOST, and MgSO4 (along with KSO4, and MKP)...basically getting a cloudy res after a couple minutes of mixing..tried various things, currently i'm:
mixing calnit in 1 gal warm water before putting in tank (after waiting a hour or so)
happens whether i use light airstone bubbling in the tank or super heavy....
ideas?
If you can find a place where Fatty hasn't been banned, id love to have the discussion with him. Ive actually wanted to discuss with him for some time now why his opinion on VPD is so... flying in the face of 30+ years of science establishing the factors of stomatal conductance, the photosynthesis-transipiration dilemma, the fact that transpiration efficiency is genetically determined (we're even finding out which genes such as ERECTA and GPA1), etc., etc. Theres absolutely nothing ive seen that compliments his theory that increased transpiration = increased growth. It seems like an oversimplified concept of 'this is how i force more into the plant'.
His theory that cranking transpiration to the max like he does with 80+ temps and ~40% humidity (giving you at the very least >2.0kPa), while using 150w bulbs (low irradiance) wont drastically reduce stomatal conductance and therefore photosynthetic net just doesn't make any sense to me.... doesn't matter if your plants are getting more DO... This study didn't even find any quantifiable difference between hydroponic plants grown in 2.1 and 16.8ppm DO water:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11541573
The only way you get >16.8 ppm is in rare setups like HP Aero, fogging units or possibly a venturi infused RDWC unit, which i've never even seen.
Maybe im missing something?
Im also gonna guess you're a fan of Fatty. If so, be warned. Out of the limited number of very intelligent growers that visit cannabis forums with a good forte in some aspect of the broad science of horticulture, Fatty seems to have the biggest chip on his shoulder and the most incorrect info. Im fairly sure he's wrong on the subject of VPD, and i know he's wrong in suggesting 1500ppm CO2, Rubisco Activase will definitely be inhibited at those levels(or any levels >1200ppm), also ethylene buildup starts becoming a significant factor. Also his suggesting of the 3-1-2 ration all the way through growth & bloom is, to say the least, in-optimal. Im sure there's more of his suggestions that i could pick at, i just have forgotten most of what the man has said that didnt have specifically to do with his particular forte, the nitty-gritty's of aeroponics, which is the only subject where his credibility seems high enough to usually not question.
Lets discuss this no further on this particular thread, as to not hijack squiggly's awesome thread, unless s/he shows an interest in discussing it as well.
I like using it to clean my tank between changes, you can see it smoke sometimes as it hits the walls that appear clean, then you see the organics you thought you didn't have slide down in their death throws lol.. Could it be the tank wasn't totally sterile? Ive tested mine by by diluting to 3% and pouring it on some blood or the dog piss on the carpet lol.. Pretty good test for me, not to scientific though lol.Peroxides can be unstable at times (this is why they're so reactive and good for the purpose of killing stuff that is alive)--it's possible it went bad. Can't think of any easy way to test it unless you had some chemical reagents just lying around.
A possible situation:
You H2O2 is oxidizing a chemical present in your nutes--and this is causing it to precipitate out. Likewise it could be something in your water (unless you're running RO/DI).
Other than that I'm not sure. I need more information.
As i understand it, what you say is only actually relevant for Calcium and Boron which are passively taken up by root tips with water, all other nutrients are actively removed from the rhizosphere independent of the rate of water absorption/transpiration.
Also VPD in horticulture refers to Vapour Pressure Deficit specifically, not differential. Essentially both mean the same thing, just ones technically correct and the others not.
Higher EC needs will be necessary as PPFD (up to ~1500ppfd), CO2 levels (up to ~1200ppm) and/or temperature increases (up to ~89F), less so as VPD optimizes(~0.8-1.2 kPa).
This Is a debate id love to see but hate to convolute and sidetrack Squiggleys awesome thread on Chemistry. I don't look at VPD charts, I look at my $350.00 electric bill for a 3000 sq ft home (24 plants me and wife) in Arizona with a pool mind you. As well as me paying much less for nutes because i'm able to run it real real lean, not that I pay much for nutes anyway lol.
I also believe as Fatman stated previously that VPD charts were created for high water content plants like Tomatoes and have little bearing on cannabis. That isn't saying what everyone else is doing doesn't work for then, I just will keep pointing out how versatile this plant is.
Like I said I'd love to hash all this out in another thread, peaceful of course, and I have an open mind. But my electric bill will play a part in my decision.
Thanks, and looking forward to hearing your spiel on the subject.If it's science-related, feel free. I'll jump in if something is bothering me or I have something to add. (I'll add my own schpiel on this later)
Id be interesting in seeing a good compilation of Fattys work. The fact that he got banned almost as soon as he started posting on any forum made it difficult to find his stuff.I think this would be better on a dedicated thread to his theories as well, albeit Fatman postmortem. Give me a couple days to get things compiled, I'll post the meat and potatoes of his "theories" i've compiled from here and different forums (fair use) for those who wish to pick them apart and hopefully cite links to scientific research that contradicts his theories.. Perhaps we can make headway twards or away from fatmans theories without fatmans buttons getting pushed and him subsequently silenced.
Like I stated before, I can't argue with my electric bill, I didn't remember him using 150wt and I don't use 200 wt 2" from plants like fatman,
I'll start one and post a link here, I'd like to hear what everyone has to say in a postmortem pissing match.
This is fascinating stuff- you've pointed out an assumption I made, apparently incorrectly; that increasing EC was directly related to RH/VPD considerations. Since I increase my RH at the same time as light levels, CO2 and temperatures, I see where I made the mistake. Does this mean that I should only add additional calcium and boron, or do I need to add more of everything when running a higher intensity garden?
Can you get me a run down of all of the salts in your solution?
If that isn't available it will be difficult to make a judgement.
Most likely you're just doing a simple precipitation.
Take a look at this chart:
(the "groups" refer to groups in the periodic table which you may refer to).
If I had my guess I'd say you're precipitating out "something"SO4--usually the most likely culprit, though silicates are known to be dickheads as well.
You can try bringing the pH way down while mixing and then adjusting to a good level afterwards--and also coming from the opposite direction by trying with a high pH.
If you still get clouding after that--you are definitely doing a simple precipitation and something in your nute regimen needs to be removed.
mixing Pro-Tekt at 2 mL/gal
Then MKP, KSO4, and MgSO4
Then Ca(NO3)2
final ratio 120-90-300-150-75-177(ish..notes not beside me right now)
I have been thinking that its Ca and SO4 that are not liking each other too much..but how is it that premixed ferts cause no problem and me doing it does?
I see your Q got skipped.can I mix the calcium chloride and mgso4 to the calcium nitrate side (A ) without any reactions?. and can I add the MOST and MKP in with the B side hydro? If not is there a way I can make a 3 part? or do I have to keep doing it hoagland style and mixing in individual bottles? That would still save me time because the hydro would be only one bottle. so that would be like a 5 part. Thanks for your time
mixing Pro-Tekt at 2 mL/gal
Then MKP, KSO4, and MgSO4
Then Ca(NO3)2
final ratio 120-90-300-150-75-177(ish..notes not beside me right now)
I have been thinking that its Ca and SO4 that are not liking each other too much..but how is it that premixed ferts cause no problem and me doing it does? im using well water going through a tallboy water filter...was thinking that it was too high SO4, so i redid my mix with some K NItrate and it still happened... Maybe mix the CalNit first and let it stew for a while?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?