Kanzeon's Perpetual Growth and Death Thread

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Milson

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Speaking of which, where do you stand on the use of the world landrace? Should we switch to "location specific heirlooms?"


Yeah, I think you're looking at a Malawi or other niche African strain for that, Maybe RSC's Sudan?
I think that guy does a lot of great work for the cannabis community and doesn't have a lot to say about language that I find particularly intelligent.

But sure, I will happily change the word I use if people who have reason to be upset about it are upset about it or just to be clearer in trying to communicate.

I also find his use of the picture of a young Uyghur woman offensive for this topic, frankly. The reasons for that go way beyond what I am comfortable talking about on the internet.

If it is a dirty enough word that he wants to link the seriousness of the problem to the genocide of a people, maybe he can sacrifice that precious landrace.blog URL or stop listing some of his strains as "landrace" on his own site.

But no, he doesn't do that. So I just find his argument hollow and frankly again think combining that with a photo of a woman from a population being brutalized TODAY is offensive.

Screenshot 2021 02 16 at 71445 PM
 
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sportyridr

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@sportyridr It's all very rudimentary right now. A milk cap full of 4-4-4, a milk cap full of guano, 325 mg of aspirin, a couple grams of sulfur, a milk cap full of fishbone meal, some kelp extract, and some alfalfa pellets go into a milk jug and sit for a couple days. Then I'll water the ladies that need something that strong (stretch to late flower), then dilute it to water the rest of the plants. Every third feeding. The idea came to me when thinking about having water sitting around to dechlorinate- if it's going to be sitting around anyway, might as well put some good stuff in there, right??

Thank you man. Like I said earlier I think I had the right idea, ingredients not so much. I've abandoned it for the moment but plan on reviving it once the warmer months get here again. Working on making some LABS and they will be ready to go soon to try but finding Molasses right now is no joke...
 
Kanzeon

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I think that guy does a lot of great work for the cannabis community and doesn't have a lot to say about language that I find particularly intelligent.

But sure, I will happily change the word I use if people who have reason to be upset about it are upset about it or just to be clearer in trying to communicate.

I also find his use of the picture of a young Uyghur woman offensive for this topic, frankly. The reasons for that go way beyond what I am comfortable talking about on the internet.

If it is a dirty enough word that he wants to link the seriousness of the problem to the genocide of a people, maybe he can sacrifice that precious landrace.blog URL or stop listing some of his strains as "landrace" on his own site.

But no, he doesn't do that. So I just find his argument hollow and frankly again think combining that with a photo of a woman from a population being brutalized TODAY is offensive.

To be fair on the Uyghur subject, he's also VERY outspoken on insta about their ongoing genocide at the hands of the CCP. It's very likely that I'm right there with you when it comes to the actions of the Chinese government. ✊

But yeah, I think he should lead by example. It's one thing to say that a word like landrace has problematic connotations (which it does), but then he should start using different terminology. I like the idea of domesticated plants just all being referred to as heirlooms (and preferably named as such, but that's a pipe dream).

Deep Chunk? Heirloom. My Kandahar Black? Heirloom. The lines going into my Afghani project? Heirloom. USC's Uzbekistan? Heirloom. Etc, etc.

The only other terminology that I think is needed is whether or not it's a multipurpose plant instead of being bred for ganja/hash.
 
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Kanzeon

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Thank you man. Like I said earlier I think I had the right idea, ingredients not so much. I've abandoned it for the moment but plan on reviving it once the warmer months get here again. Working on making some LABS and they will be ready to go soon to try but finding Molasses right now is no joke...

Here's a quick LABS technique, in case you're interested.

Put some rice in a bowl and cover it with cold water. Let it sit for a few minutes until the water gets cloudy. Strain the liquid into another container, add 2% sugar and 2% salt by weight to the liquid and put in a dark place, sealed, for a few days, burping every 24 hours. Dilute 5:1 and you've got it.
 
Milson

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I like the idea of domesticated plants just all being referred to as heirlooms (and preferably named as such, but that's a pipe dream).

Deep Chunk? Heirloom. My Kandahar Black? Heirloom. The lines going into my Afghani project? Heirloom. USC's Uzbekistan? Heirloom. Etc, etc.

The only other terminology that I think is needed is whether or not it's a multipurpose plant instead of being bred for ganja/hash.
Agree that heirloom would be appropriate.

Heirloom vs wild vs semi wild seems fine. And typical uses (ganja, hash, chara, hemp, multiple, etc)

But again "landrace" is a keyword that makes money. Ironically, as soon as you take the seeds out of the locality and do anything with them, they are no longer really landrace....right? Whole freaking point is they are geographically adapted.....which is not relevant to almost anyone buying them.
 
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Kanzeon

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Agree that heirloom would be appropriate.

Heirloom vs wild vs semi wild seems fine. And typical uses (ganja, hash, chara, hemp, multiple, etc)

But again "landrace" is a keyword that makes money. Ironically, as soon as you take the seeds out of the locality and do anything with them, they are no longer really landrace....right? Whole freaking point is they are geographically adapted.....which is not relevant to almost anyone buying them.

Exactly. I don't say that my Crimean Black tomatoes are harvested wild in the lush wild tomato fields of Crimea. They're just an heirloom from there. It should be the same for weed. All kinds of modern hybrids and polyhybrids bred to resist all kinds of stuff, as well as centuries old seeds from preserved and worked lines.

Either way, it's a marketing term and I like heirloom better.
 
tobh

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I agree 100% with the heirloom argument. Heirloom has been the confirmation term for at least a semi-centennial. Generations on generations have literally recognized that as a "domesticated" variety that's been worked in a certain region, and as such, carries very specific traits for that region.

However, and this is likely due to the generation that really brought cannabis into the mainstream North American culture and their beliefs, landrace carries the very same confirmation. Changing linguistics takes time. Hell, look at Chekoslovakia and Slovania. They speak the same damn language, but because of dialects and delivery, they'll punch you in the mouth for addressing them incorrectly.

All that being said, I'm on board with promoting that transition. Cannabis needs to quit being treated as some special wallflower and treated just like any other agricultural crop, because it's no fuckin different. Just because it gets you high doesn't make it special. There's plenty of other herbs that do -- datura, nightshade, sage (salvia divinorum), capii, tobacco, mimosa hostilis, morning glory, hawaiian baby woodrose.. need I go on?


🎤drop
 
Frankster

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I grew out USC's Triple Pakistan early on and wasn't super impressed with the potency or high, but that's really the extent of my Pakistani experience. It stacked really well, and then was the weakest bud I've ever smoked. Maybe it was the pheno, but I'm not super eager to re-run it.

I think you're right with the Afghan Mix. What I need after this year will be dictated by what grows well this year. Mainly I'm hoping to find some unique terps and a couchlocking smoke, but we'll see what happens.

@Frankster that shit was like a surgical strike. Literally within a couple seconds of opening the door, he'd chomped the top of the plant off and ate it. 😄 He also ate the tips off of the leaves of another seedling another time. I just need to get some catnip going indoors again so that he can have something to destroy.

@sportyridr It's all very rudimentary right now. A milk cap full of 4-4-4, a milk cap full of guano, 325 mg of aspirin, a couple grams of sulfur, a milk cap full of fishbone meal, some kelp extract, and some alfalfa pellets go into a milk jug and sit for a couple days. Then I'll water the ladies that need something that strong (stretch to late flower), then dilute it to water the rest of the plants. Every third feeding. The idea came to me when thinking about having water sitting around to dechlorinate- if it's going to be sitting around anyway, might as well put some good stuff in there, right??

What's the best way to apply some sulfur, I got this awhile back and I haven't tried it yet, can I sprinkle it on, or should I make it into a mix as you suggest, does it appear to dissolve well? pH issues? What's good for a counterbalance, or does it promote nitrification?

Good God I'm stoned. I found some God's Gift, (I want to try before I buy) but unfortunately, it' was in pre-rolls, so I got one (actually 2 in there) Surprisingly, It looks, taste, smells much like my frankenstein photoperiods, actually. Then I got some of the Obama OG Kush, because they said they seen a few stray seeds in them (One can hope), and I tried some of this Vortex, a sativa that's had my head spinning all afternoon testing in at 30.9% THC, it say's. Very smooth and subtle, but a heavy hitter. I'm kinda amazed, actually how smooth (and potent) it is, crazy smooth.
 
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Kanzeon

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Holy shit those are some nice buds!

2 grams sulfur and 2 grams epsom salt, diluted in warm water, as a foliar with a spray bottle or pressure sprayer. Can also throw some balanced nutes in there just as a deficiency preventative/countermeasure. The epsom salt is also a good foliar (obvs), and the texture of it helps keep the suflur in suspension in the water instead of it clumping or settling.
 
dire wolf

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What's the best way to apply some sulfur, I got this awhile back and I haven't tried it yet, can I sprinkle it on, or should I make it into a mix as you suggest, does it appear to dissolve well? pH issues? What's good for a counterbalance, or does it promote nitrification?

Good God I'm stoned. I found some God's Gift, (I want to try before I buy) but unfortunately, it' was in pre-rolls, so I got one (actually 2 in there) Surprisingly, It looks, taste, smells much like my frankenstein photoperiods, actually. Then I got some of the Obama OG Kush, because they said they seen a few stray seeds in them (One can hope), and I tried some of this Vortex, a sativa that's had my head spinning all afternoon testing in at 30.9% THC, it say's. Very smooth and subtle, but a heavy hitter. I'm kinda amazed, actually how smooth (and potent) it is, crazy smooth.
Vortex , that's a subcool strain right ?
 
Milson

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Agree that heirloom would be appropriate.

Heirloom vs wild vs semi wild seems fine. And typical uses (ganja, hash, chara, hemp, multiple, etc)

But again "landrace" is a keyword that makes money. Ironically, as soon as you take the seeds out of the locality and do anything with them, they are no longer really landrace....right? Whole freaking point is they are geographically adapted.....which is not relevant to almost anyone buying them.
Here is what happened when I asked him about it.

Screenshot 20210216 233317

I continued on from there if you care then you can find it but I don't want to fill Kanzeon's thread with my mountain of phone screenshots lol.
 
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Kanzeon

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Yeah, it's like he doesn't realize that a lot of people look to him as an authority on the subject.

"Starting a conversation" is helpful, ish. But at the very least he could keep the URL and change the terminology on the site, just like he has with indica and sativa classifications in the past.
 
Milson

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Yeah, it's like he doesn't realize that a lot of people look to him as an authority on the subject.

"Starting a conversation" is helpful, ish. But at the very least he could keep the URL and change the terminology on the site, just like he has with indica and sativa classifications in the past.
Yeah so that thread continued and honestly I need to not argue with people on the internet lol. Not sure why I did that other than frustration (which isn't a good enough reason).
 
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Frankster

Frankster

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To be fair on the Uyghur subject, he's also VERY outspoken on insta about their ongoing genocide at the hands of the CCP. It's very likely that I'm right there with you when it comes to the actions of the Chinese government. ✊

But yeah, I think he should lead by example. It's one thing to say that a word like landrace has problematic connotations (which it does), but then he should start using different terminology. I like the idea of domesticated plants just all being referred to as heirlooms (and preferably named as such, but that's a pipe dream).

Deep Chunk? Heirloom. My Kandahar Black? Heirloom. The lines going into my Afghani project? Heirloom. USC's Uzbekistan? Heirloom. Etc, etc.

The only other terminology that I think is needed is whether or not it's a multipurpose plant instead of being bred for ganja/hash.

Personally, I like the term "native" or perhaps "natives", or "native cultivars", I think it's far more accurate and to the point of what were trying to describe. Or possibly even "indigenous" or "indigenous cultivar"

Because it's a well respected word and gives a nod to the people and cultures that have worshiped our land and all life within it, for millennia. It's also far more descriptive to the lay person.
 
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Frankster

Frankster

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I agree 100% with the heirloom argument. Heirloom has been the confirmation term for at least a semi-centennial. Generations on generations have literally recognized that as a "domesticated" variety that's been worked in a certain region, and as such, carries very specific traits for that region.

However, and this is likely due to the generation that really brought cannabis into the mainstream North American culture and their beliefs, landrace carries the very same confirmation. Changing linguistics takes time. Hell, look at Chekoslovakia and Slovania. They speak the same damn language, but because of dialects and delivery, they'll punch you in the mouth for addressing them incorrectly.

All that being said, I'm on board with promoting that transition. Cannabis needs to quit being treated as some special wallflower and treated just like any other agricultural crop, because it's no fuckin different. Just because it gets you high doesn't make it special. There's plenty of other herbs that do -- datura, nightshade, sage (salvia divinorum), capii, tobacco, mimosa hostilis, morning glory, hawaiian baby woodrose.. need I go on?


🎤drop

I have to agree up to a point, but there's like well over 10,000 known different strains and variations, so it is kinda a wall flower in many respects, and I would argue that cannabis has much more cultural and spiritual significance than wheat, or beans, or kale... It's not the "same", but there are certainly similarities.

For many people: Cannabis is medicine, and that alone sets it apart from many other crops. It's natural medicine. It holds more cultural significance, so depending on who you ask, you might get a much different answer. It's a "sacred" plant, a true gift straight from the Gods. Many "herbs" do indeed hold this distinction, but cannabis is a standout.

Others that hold a similar type of lore:
Sage
Opium
psilocybin
Peyote
Ginger
among many others....
 
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Frankster

Frankster

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The other thing is that most every "valuable" crop on earth has been studied relentlessly for the past 100 years and optimize to it's fullest potential. Cannabis has been suppressed, restrained, censored up until recently, (2010) so it's just now coming to fruition, coming of age... The modern man has finally chosen to embrace this crop and investigate it fully, study it's hidden mystery and secrets.

Corn was optimized 50 years ago, and nothing much has changed much since then. (from a tiny one inch ear). Same with apples, oranges, and many other crops, they've been the subject of much intense research and development, genetic engineering over the last century, but cannabis cultivation was shunned, left out, ignored and even punished.

This is the golden age of cannabis, no doubt, and it will one day be looked back upon. I really think cannabis has the potential for solving many of the worlds problems, not just getting everyone stoned. It was embraced for centuries as the fiber of choice, before it was displaced by cotton growers and outlawed. It also show's potential for sequestering carbon, and replacing many wood products. People could one day be living in cannabis (board) homes, driving fuel made from it, clothing, oils, there are so many applications and possibilities for this plant, and it grows everywhere, from the tropics to the most northern zones.
 
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tobh

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I have to agree up to a point, but there's like over 10,000 known different strains and variations, so it is kinda a wall flower in many respects, and I would argue that cannabis has much more cultural and spiritual significance than wheat, or beans, or kale... It's not the "same", but there are certainly similarities.

For many people: Cannabis is medicine, and that alone sets it apart from many other crops. It holds more cultural significance, so depending on who you ask, you might get a much different answer.
In rebuttal, look at roses, tomatoes, or even Papaver Somniferum. All of which have thousands, if not tens of thousands, of hybrids just like cannabis, and only some fall under the labeling of heirloom. Heirloom specifically being a line that's been bred in isolation for generations to retain very particular traits. I cannot say that the majority falls into that group, just like non-heirloom tomato seeds.

Anymore, nearly every cannabis lineage is a hybrid of hybrids, lines being worked for a year or two by chuckers masquerading as breeders, and further diluting the gene pool instead of keeping specific lines of historical significance pure and robust. The only way to acquire truly "pure" genetics is to source them from specific geographic regions -- thereby garnering the reasonable use of the label "heirloom."

I'd further contend that while food crops may not carry the same mystique cannabis has (per Terrence McKenna, cannabis was once thought to be the Soma discussed in Sumerian texts, as were poppies, mushrooms, and other food crops), but they have carried significant cultural weight. Look at the Southwestern Native American tribes, for instance. Masa, or corn, is of utmost importance to their cultures, as are tobacco and cannabis. Deviating slightly from main food crops, the same can be said of citrus to the SIberian cultures, ayahuasca plant groups to the Central and South American indigenous peoples, San Pedro cacti (generalized term for this purpose) to the Bolivian and Peruvian tribes, and Coca to the Columbian and Peruvian peoples.

It's not just cannabis that's special, or historically significant so there is no reason to put it on a pedestal when really, there are much more culturally significant plants on earth than an herb that gives a mild high with some medicinal benefits. I personally cannot put such a significant delineation on cannabis, as if it's something completely unique from the thousands of other medicinal plants throughout history. I just don't see it having as widespread historical significance as many wish it did. Before Harry Anslinger in the 1930s, it wasn't even that big of a deal, so that begs the question:

How much has global prohibition influenced the reverence given to cannabis, and made it take on this air of significance where previously it was treated no more special than other flowers and food crops? It has its place in history, certainly. It doesn't hold a candle to many other crops in terms of true single-handed cultural influence though, and shouldn't be addressed in any specially unique way.

Some of the biggest reasons I raise that question are (a) prohibition was started on inherently racist and economic foundations and (b) it's the most harmless of the prohibited plants as one can smoke a joint and go about their day. Can't say the same after drinking a potent poppy pod tea, or eating a handful of peyote.

Sorry for the rant... this deviated a bit from the topic at hand. It's an interesting thing to discuss, for sure.
 
Milson

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Personally, I like the term "native" or perhaps "natives", or "native cultivars", I think it's far more accurate and to the point of what were trying to describe. Or possibly even "indigenous" or "indigenous cultivar"

Because it's a well respected word and gives a nod to the people and cultures that have worshiped our land and all life within it, for millennia. It's also far more descriptive to the lay person.
I guess the more I have thought about this the more I have felt the really unethical thing happening with language is the erasure of the selection practiced by these farmers and lumping it in as incidental (the important part is the land it's from according to the name).

Really, i think the interest comes from the fact that these cultivars are un-hybridized, thereby providing both new genetic material for breeding and potentially novel plants compared to what is currently available in a marketplace that has found its gene pool narrow during prohibition. The fact these plants are adapted to the land they grow on (thereby making them of that land or "landrace") is what's incidental for many if not most customers.

I feel like this could all be recategorized easily and nobody would throw much of a fit. The current categories don't make a ton of sense and actually have problems vs usages outside of cannabis. For instance, even heirloom seeds usually have variety in them according to common usage in vegetables. With vegetables, they are open pollinated basically by definition. And yet we want to only use the "passed down for years" in our usage when this working hasn't even lasted more than fifty or so years max and any other heirloom variety should be at least a hundred years old according to many.

It's all problematic.
 
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