Kanzeon's Perpetual Growth and Death Thread

[Frankster]

In rebuttal, look at roses, tomatoes, or even Papaver Somniferum. All of which have thousands, if not tens of thousands, of hybrids just like cannabis, and only some fall under the labeling of heirloom. Heirloom specifically being a line that's been bred in isolation for generations to retain very particular traits. I cannot say that the majority falls into that group, just like non-heirloom tomato seeds.

Anymore, nearly every cannabis lineage is a hybrid of hybrids, lines being worked for a year or two by chuckers masquerading as breeders, and further diluting the gene pool instead of keeping specific lines of historical significance pure and robust. The only way to acquire truly "pure" genetics is to source them from specific geographic regions -- thereby garnering the reasonable use of the label "heirloom."

I'd further contend that while food crops may not carry the same mystique cannabis has (per Terrence McKenna, cannabis was once thought to be the Soma discussed in Sumerian texts, as were poppies, mushrooms, and other food crops), but they have carried significant cultural weight. Look at the Southwestern Native American tribes, for instance. Masa, or corn, is of utmost importance to their cultures, as are tobacco and cannabis. Deviating slightly from main food crops, the same can be said of citrus to the SIberian cultures, ayahuasca plant groups to the Central and South American indigenous peoples, San Pedro cacti (generalized term for this purpose) to the Bolivian and Peruvian tribes, and Coca to the Columbian and Peruvian peoples.

It's not just cannabis that's special, or historically significant so there is no reason to put it on a pedestal when really, there are much more culturally significant plants on earth than an herb that gives a mild high with some medicinal benefits. I personally cannot put such a significant delineation on cannabis, as if it's something completely unique from the thousands of other medicinal plants throughout history. I just don't see it having as widespread historical significance as many wish it did. Before Harry Anslinger in the 1930s, it wasn't even that big of a deal, so that begs the question:

How much has global prohibition influenced the reverence given to cannabis, and made it take on this air of significance where previously it was treated no more special than other flowers and food crops? It has its place in history, certainly. It doesn't hold a candle to many other crops in terms of true single-handed cultural influence though, and shouldn't be addressed in any specially unique way.

Some of the biggest reasons I raise that question are (a) prohibition was started on inherently racist and economic foundations and (b) it's the most harmless of the prohibited plants as one can smoke a joint and go about their day. Can't say the same after drinking a potent poppy pod tea, or eating a handful of peyote.

Sorry for the rant... this deviated a bit from the topic at hand. It's an interesting thing to discuss, for sure.

Heirloom is an excellent term, I'm not against it whatsoever. It's more descriptive than what we currently use.

No doubt you've made some good points. I think when it comes down to it, like other cultural things, some people are going to hold things dear, that others might not, or other might even actively shun, or suppress. Like the days of the buffalo, it was a means of control, to destroy someone's culture, only to remake them in your own image. (So called benevolent approach of reforming the savage.). When you mention things like Harry Anslinger, in the 30's, your really looking at cannabis though the lens of a white man's perspective. When you observe it through the histories of the peoples of South East Asia, or the Middle East, I think there's a longstanding significant history that predates the modern historical record, and just hasn't either been a subject of worthwhile study, or perhaps lost to the ages of time.

I would claim that potent strains of cannabis have existed for centuries, maybe not @20%+, but certainy in the 5-7% range, maybe even as high as 10-12%... I just don't think it's part of the historical record. Man's been at this a long, long, time. We actually have an endocannabinoid system, how did we manage that one?

Modern science, and especially historical records are constantly being revised. When I grew up, black holes were not even contemplated, now they are a known (and fairly understood) phenomena. The hubris of man, don't get me started on that one, it's a predominate feature of modern man.

 

[Frankster]

I guess the more I have thought about this the more I have felt the really unethical thing happening with language is the erasure of the selection practiced by these farmers and lumping it in as incidental (the important part is the land it's from according to the name).

Really, i think the interest comes from the fact that these cultivars are un-hybridized, thereby providing both new genetic material for breeding and potentially novel plants compared to what is currently available in a marketplace that has found its gene pool narrow during prohibition. The fact these plants are adapted to the land they grow on (thereby making them of that land or "landrace") is what's incidental for many if not most customers.

I feel like this could all be recategorized easily and nobody would throw much of a fit. The current categories don't make a ton of sense and actually have problems vs usages outside of cannabis. For instance, even heirloom seeds usually have variety in them according to common usage in vegetables. With vegetables, they are open pollinated basically by definition. And yet we want to only use the "passed down for years" in our usage when this working hasn't even lasted more than fifty or so years max and any other heirloom variety should be at least a hundred years old according to many.

It's all problematic.

I fear there's never going to be a truly comprehensive way for organizing cannabis strains, because the problem that exist is the overabundance of diversity, and all the multiple sets of metrics that are involved. Size, potency, smell, structure, yields, flowering times, phenos, terpenes, environmental factors, ect...

If it was done, it would require a top down study, (of experts) and a scientifically backed group of individuals that come together and institute an agreed upon methodology.

This is the way I see cannabis genetics. IMO, I think the Indicas, and the Kushes specifically represent the "culmination" of genetics in Cannabis. Looks something like this... Everything else can "contribute" genetics in that direction.... Or build diversity outward..

Tropics--> Temperate <----- Northern Zones
Sativas--> Indicas--> KUSHES <--Indicas <--Ruderalis.

Charts could be made (and symbols) up for delineating specific categories as well... Including phenos, even down to the very specific terpenes produced, size, morphology, ect...
I think a constellation of graphs and charts would give better insight into the genetic origins, (and where specific genetics lay along the continuum) than ANY words are capable of ever describing.

 

[Frankster]

Holy shit those are some nice buds!

2 grams sulfur and 2 grams epsom salt, diluted in warm water, as a foliar with a spray bottle or pressure sprayer. Can also throw some balanced nutes in there just as a deficiency preventative/countermeasure. The epsom salt is also a good foliar (obvs), and the texture of it helps keep the suflur in suspension in the water instead of it clumping or settling.

Do you Ph balance it up? or do you leave it acidic? That sounds like a fairly acidic mixture to me, that's the concern I have with many of these amendments... If the sulfur is part of the nitrification cycle, it should naturally readjust itself, I suspect. I certainly know the sulfur is going to help increase the stinky dank, and I think I've probably spent much of the sulfur content in my soil over successive grows, so it likely needs some replacement. I'm assuming sulfur is something that doesn't probably "wash out" of soil, as readily as other minerals, leaching out like some of the other salts.

The other question I had was about the aspirin your using. I purchased some of this awhile back, but I haven't used it much, only once during a flowering, (trying to increase budding sites) but so many of these supposed "good things' tend to be on the acidic side, and I've only got limited things for re-balancing, so I don't want to over-do them. (specifically potassium)

acetylsalicylic acid vs salicylic acid I know they are different, but perhaps similar properties, in some respect?

 

[Frankster]

Vortex , that's a subcool strain right ?

That's what I got from it also, that it's a subcool strain, although the one I smoked last night was done by a place called Bondi Farms. Good greif that was good stuff, I'm going to smoke up again.

I get too used to some of my strains and sometimes it's good to make a change. I need more diversity, especially some potent sativas. I've got a few, but I havn't been growing them of late. I was out with some friends last night and gave them a bit of my stash, and they all seemed very happy, but I've been smoking it so long, it's not hitting me like it used to before.

BONDI FARMS

Welcome to Bondi Farms. We provide recreational cannabis to the 21 and over market in Washington State. Previous; Next. Copyright © 2015 Bondi Farms.

www.bondifarms.com

 

[Frankster]

The other thing I smoke last night was some dutch treat that was like 25% and I have to say it was certainly impressive. All those different flavors, and the strength of them, (like 5 different terps listed, some very rare and unusual ones not present in most strains) just pungent knock your socks of smells, I forgot how great they taste. Some of those culitvars I ran earlier this year obviously had some similar lines in them, and it will be interesting to see how they have melded with some of the OG Indicas I've crossed into them, hopefully, there will be some stand outs.

I really think Dutch Treat has some great potential for cross breeding, I think finding a good pure line to work might really be interesting, if you could isolate some of the terpenes, there are so many differernt smells coming out of those buds.

 

[Kanzeon]

Do you Ph balance it up? or do you leave it acidic? That sounds like a fairly acidic mixture to me, that's the concern I have with many of these amendments... If the sulfur is part of the nitrification cycle, it should naturally readjust itself, I suspect. I certainly know the sulfur is going to help increase the stinky dank, and I think I've probably spent much of the sulfur content in my soil over successive grows, so it likely needs some replacement. I'm assuming sulfur is something that doesn't probably "wash out" of soil, as readily as other minerals, leaching out like some of the other salts.

The other question I had was about the aspirin your using. I purchased some of this awhile back, but I haven't used it much, only once during a flowering, (trying to increase budding sites) but so many of these supposed "good things' tend to be on the acidic side, and I've only got limited things for re-balancing, so I don't want to over-do them. (specifically potassium)

acetylsalicylic acid vs salicylic acid I know they are different, but perhaps similar properties, in some respect?
View attachment 1092875

That's a good question. I don't let it sit long enough to get really acidic, and use a lot of lime/oyster shell flour in the soil mix so it hasn't been a problem so far.

For plant purposes, acetylsalicylic acid and salicylic acid are interchangeable. There's a post where I nerd out about it on my last thread. I'd go super light with that stuff though until your plants start responding. When you find the dose where the leaves in late veg go from drooping to praying in 15 minutes or so, you're there. I actually just dosed all of my plants with aspirin the other day after those seedlings started to flop over and everything looks better in 24 hours. I don't think it would have saved the Birthday Funk from the cat, though.

(I dropped the last Siberian Haze bean instead.)

Also it's so fucking nice to wake up and catch up to this discussion. This community is the best.

 

[Kanzeon]

So I had an idea...

I know, it's super fancy and bougie. But we make do with what we have, right? The picture looks dim, but it's really just because those two lights are that much brighter than everything else in the room. I mean, it's a 4000K 260 watt HLG, that's a bright light. Above it is lit by some full spectrum led light bulbs that I got on clearance a while back plugged in to a light bulb splitter, just like the one on the desk.

Under the desk are (L to R) Lemon Citron, Panama Red, and Pipatxu (Deep Chunk x Maizal Gord). Out of 5 Pipatxu seeds, I got two males that I killed (one by accident), one dwarfy runt that I've got in the flower tent, and then that absolute unit. I'll likely be chucking some pollen at her just to preserve the genetics, but it's about time to see what this plant can do.

But there's the cool part. The driver being mounted under the desk is essentially a heating mat for whatever is on top of it, as well as mitigating the cold from the floor. So I've got peppers, tomatoes, tomatillos, dill, and a couple basils that are germinating and sprouting as I type. Also some far red to get these ladies ready for flowering.

It also serves a third purpose- mitigating the drafts from the walls and window near it. Minus 20 is no joke- there was a layer of frost on the inside of the window a couple inches thick.

 

[MIMedGrower]

Too fancy. Please install fishtank.

 

[Kanzeon]

Hah. Fuinny thing is...

I was actually thinking of doing that and using the water for small scale aquaponics down the road. I like how fish tanks look but I've never owned one.

 

[Kanzeon]

G13 Hashplant.

Yep, she's a pretty plant. That's G13 Hashplant on the right and Sky Cuddler to the left, both to be cut within the next week/ 10 days.

Sky Cuddler on the left, G13 Haze on the right.

G13 Haze, still throwing white pistils. Might need to take her another 3 weeks.

That's it, that's the bud porn.

 

[MIMedGrower]

Holy cow! Those are some nice buds!!!

Always wondered what it would be like to use “holy cow”. Wasnt as rewarding as I hoped. Your buds deserve better. :-)

 

[Kanzeon]

Hahaha thanks man! Yeah, I'm really glad I had that lady make some babiies.

 

[Frankster]

So I had an idea...

View attachment 1093419

I know, it's super fancy and bougie. But we make do with what we have, right? The picture looks dim, but it's really just because those two lights are that much brighter than everything else in the room. I mean, it's a 4000K 260 watt HLG, that's a bright light. Above it is lit by some full spectrum led light bulbs that I got on clearance a while back plugged in to a light bulb splitter, just like the one on the desk.

Under the desk are (L to R) Lemon Citron, Panama Red, and Pipatxu (Deep Chunk x Maizal Gord). Out of 5 Pipatxu seeds, I got two males that I killed (one by accident), one dwarfy runt that I've got in the flower tent, and then that absolute unit. I'll likely be chucking some pollen at her just to preserve the genetics, but it's about time to see what this plant can do.

View attachment 1093420

But there's the cool part. The driver being mounted under the desk is essentially a heating mat for whatever is on top of it, as well as mitigating the cold from the floor. So I've got peppers, tomatoes, tomatillos, dill, and a couple basils that are germinating and sprouting as I type. Also some far red to get these ladies ready for flowering.

It also serves a third purpose- mitigating the drafts from the walls and window near it. Minus 20 is no joke- there was a layer of frost on the inside of the window a couple inches thick.

I'm all for heating the house with LED's, it's a really efficient means of converting heat energy, and channeling it into another purpose. Nice job! Pay your heating bills, and reap the resulting side product.

We've got a small portable radiator heater that I use as backup on really cold mornings, but I've tried to use heat waste as the exclusive means of heating our place this year, and it's working. Keeping good air flow in the house has helped a lot also.

If I still lived in the old house I had out in the mid west that used gas heat, I would probably be trying out how to channel some of the CO2 from the stack into the grow area.

 

[dire wolf]

G13 Hashplant.

View attachment 1093451View attachment 1093452
Yep, she's a pretty plant. That's G13 Hashplant on the right and Sky Cuddler to the left, both to be cut within the next week/ 10 days.

View attachment 1093455

Sky Cuddler on the left, G13 Haze on the right.

View attachment 1093454

G13 Haze, still throwing white pistils. Might need to take her another 3 weeks.

View attachment 1093453

That's it, that's the bud porn.

I'm gonna try it

 

[dire wolf]

HOLY COW , that g13 and hash plant have that look that I love , hard to describe , mostly about the shape of top bud , but you guys know what I mean , they just have that pedigree look ..... Something like the " dog show " except it's a " bud show "

Calyx to leaf , size , density , shape , color ...... Nice
And the g13 got that good color and " greasy " thing going on .... At least that's how it looks from here

Like my fingers would get real sticky if I gave a squeeze

 

[dire wolf]

Sky cuddlier looks good , but the others look a little more classy

 

[Frankster]

So your getting some of those symptoms I commonly get during the last part of flowering, especially that sky cuddler on the left hand side, the dis-coloration along the leaf margins. Any thoughts on the cause?

Is it just natural ripening and just should be disregarded? or perhaps a potassium excess or def? Or a phosphorus issue? No question, the buds look great, and I see signs of new hair growth, alongside the older red colored hairs, so it's most certainly looks to be fully engaged.

Just wondering what others might think about this phenomena.

Have these plants been running on the cooler side of things? Maybe cooler temps (I see plenty of purpling in some of the plants) combined with later stages of growth induces some potassium symptoms? It's always a big mystery to me when things get to this stage.

 

[dire wolf]

Hey frankster , I'm old and old school , so I have a kind of lazy condition engrained in me from the early days when we just thought , she's ripening up , and any discoloration as seen here , even crispy , or suspect leaf at the end game were not really addressed....

Being a bit lazy , I just let em go , but on the other hand , with all the info out there , I guess there's a way to manage nutes , uptake , feeding schedule , heat etc , I'm sure you could iron out deficiencies right on thru to the end , but then factor in all the sensitivities attached to different strains ... I'm not sure I can do it ...

As long as I don't sense heat damage , mold or any other factors , humidity etc .......
If leaf is loosing color and even in a suspect way , I usually just let her do her thing ....

Though I do have some memory of dirtbag , MIM and Aqua talking about how they prolong leaf health right thru to finish day .....

 

[dire wolf]

G13 Hashplant.

View attachment 1093451View attachment 1093452
Yep, she's a pretty plant. That's G13 Hashplant on the right and Sky Cuddler to the left, both to be cut within the next week/ 10 days.

View attachment 1093455

Sky Cuddler on the left, G13 Haze on the right.

View attachment 1093454

G13 Haze, still throwing white pistils. Might need to take her another 3 weeks.

View attachment 1093453

That's it, that's the bud porn.

I also like when hazes look like they might foxtail but instead just give you that nervous peak on top but form a nice full bud without throwing foxtail al over the place , and even worse start to pump out spears in the last few weeks and make some kind of porcupine bud ....

Am I making sense ?

 

[dire wolf]

Got that old skunk , haze type without ending up too fluff or foxtail .....