Non Hydro Trees.

[mountain]

jalisco - hey man, good eye..i used no cages on these, for support i do 2 things..first around day 7-10 of flower i drape a trellis over and around the plants and allow them to grow up and in to the trellis during stretch anchoring itself to the trellis..then around week 4 i drill 10-12 pinky size holes in the rim of each container, just big enough to fit a bamboo very tightly without fastening it to anything..i then go up and down the length of each bamboo and fasten as many branches as possible to each bamboo..i then tie support strings at different points of the trellis on each plant and ties those to the light posts above...doing both of these allows me to hold and and support large and small main branches with the bamboos aswell as hold up and support numerous colas around the plant with the trellis by only using a few support strings vs trying up every branch individually

some might think this is too much work and its better to use a cage..but i found that cages can constrict and alter the upward and outward growth of a plant during stretch in a negative way..this is why i stopped using cages as they never allowed the plant to grow outward naturally in the way i aim for...doing this although obviously much more work than a cage, allows me to support the entire plant without interfering with its upward and outward growth..its not for everyone or every garden and might even seem ghetto lol but i havent found a more efficient way to support trees without interfering with growth

here is a pic of right after i draped over the trellis

View attachment 306647

and a pic to hopefully illustrate what i was describing better..if you look closely you can see the bamboos in the rim of the container and the trellis buried in the canopy anchored to the support strings

View attachment 306648

Wow, super impressed.

What does your transplanting schedule look like using the bulk rockwool?

Sent you a pm - again super impressed thanks for sharing!

 

[DonJuanMatus]

thank you mouintain, glad to share...sorry for not getting back to your pm, i wrote you out an answer and lost it before i hit send..ill reply again when i get a chance

my transplant schedule is as follows...from rooted plug...2-3 weeks in half gal of bulk wool, one month in 5 gal of bulk wool, and finally one month veg in theyre final container, a 20 gal....then flip...so a ten to eleven week veg total, strain dependent...i was doing a twelve week veg when i went from plug to 4 inch cube but after tossing the 4 inch for a half gal of bulk wool, i was able to shave about 2 weeks off of the veg time..i am not a fan of cubed rockwool at all, its growth rates are soil like compared to bulk wool

i have my grow set up like an assembly line with the next 4 runs vegging at any given time...cuts in dome, plants in half gals, plants in 5 gals and plants in 20 gals...once a month the 20 gals get moved into the flower room to replace the ones that are being harvested..and are flowered the same day the previous ones are harvested..i do no preveg in the flower room, it is always on 12/12 as when i flip a new round of plants, half the flower room has plants that are already a month into flower

each month when these 20s are moved out of veg ..the 5 gals move up to 20s to take theyre place, the half gals move up to fives, plugs move up to half gals and a new round of clones is taken..doing it staged perpetually like this was the only way i was able to have a perpetual tree grow with a long veg, not too large of a veg room, all with 0 down time between crops...i have my flower room split in half with each half a month a part, so im chopping and flipping half of my flower room every month..this is by far the most productive and consistent system ive ever ran

 

[Capulator]

thank you mouintain, glad to share...sorry for not getting back to your pm, i wrote you out an answer and lost it before i hit send..ill reply again when i get a chance

my transplant schedule is as follows...from rooted plug...2-3 weeks in half gal of bulk wool, one month in 5 gal of bulk wool, and finally one month veg in theyre final container, a 20 gal....then flip...so a ten to eleven week veg total, strain dependent...i was doing a twelve week veg when i went from plug to 4 inch cube but after tossing the 4 inch for a half gal of bulk wool, i was able to shave about 2 weeks off of the veg time..i am not a fan of cubed rockwool at all, its growth rates are soil like compared to bulk wool

i have my grow set up like an assembly line with the next 4 runs vegging at any given time...cuts in dome, plants in half gals, plants in 5 gals and plants in 20 gals...once a month the 20 gals get moved into the flower room to replace the ones that are being harvested..and are flowered the same day the previous ones are harvested..i do no preveg in the flower room, it is always on 12/12 as when i flip a new round of plants, half the flower room has plants that are already a month into flower

each month when these 20s are moved out of veg ..the 5 gals move up to 20s to take theyre place, the half gals move up to fives, plugs move up to half gals and a new round of clones is taken..doing it staged perpetually like this was the only way i was able to have a perpetual tree grow with a long veg, not too large of a veg room, all with 0 down time between crops...i have my flower room split in half with each half a month a part, so im chopping and flipping half of my flower room every month..this is by far the most productive and consistent system ive ever ran

Perpetual trees is a great idea once you get the timing down of your strains nothing beats it.

 

[ttystikk]

Perpetual trees is a great idea once you get the timing down of your strains nothing beats it.

I second this. The main thing I do differently is that I have 4 bloom zones all staggered 16 days apart. This makes for a crop just about twice a month- very nice, and it definitely helps keep the workload from getting out of hand.

 

[mountain]

Was thinking these

So 8 15-gallon smart pots with a 80 lpm air pump. So 10 liters per site. Wonder if that would be enough to even make a difference. I might just try one or 2 sites to do side by side

What medium are you putting those air lines into in the smart pots? Air diffusers into soil?

 

[mountain]

thank you mouintain, glad to share...sorry for not getting back to your pm, i wrote you out an answer and lost it before i hit send..ill reply again when i get a chance

my transplant schedule is as follows...from rooted plug...2-3 weeks in half gal of bulk wool, one month in 5 gal of bulk wool, and finally one month veg in theyre final container, a 20 gal....then flip...so a ten to eleven week veg total, strain dependent...i was doing a twelve week veg when i went from plug to 4 inch cube but after tossing the 4 inch for a half gal of bulk wool, i was able to shave about 2 weeks off of the veg time..i am not a fan of cubed rockwool at all, its growth rates are soil like compared to bulk wool

i have my grow set up like an assembly line with the next 4 runs vegging at any given time...cuts in dome, plants in half gals, plants in 5 gals and plants in 20 gals...once a month the 20 gals get moved into the flower room to replace the ones that are being harvested..and are flowered the same day the previous ones are harvested..i do no preveg in the flower room, it is always on 12/12 as when i flip a new round of plants, half the flower room has plants that are already a month into flower

each month when these 20s are moved out of veg ..the 5 gals move up to 20s to take theyre place, the half gals move up to fives, plugs move up to half gals and a new round of clones is taken..doing it staged perpetually like this was the only way i was able to have a perpetual tree grow with a long veg, not too large of a veg room, all with 0 down time between crops...i have my flower room split in half with each half a month a part, so im chopping and flipping half of my flower room every month..this is by far the most productive and consistent system ive ever ran

Thanks Don Juan. Really look forward to hearing from you when you have time.

No Co2 at all in your setup?

Is it possible to go from ez cloner to bulk rockwool? As far as cuts into cubes in a tray with a dome - takes a long time and seems to stress them a lot more than a cloner.

Chemdog #4 looks like a really bushy strain or you are masterful at training it - are you just topping the spreading them like crazy? It would of course be very challenging to shape for example a blue dream like that even with daily topping, but even something less prone to stretch could still be challenging to get such a short, wide canopy with that many tops... any recommendations for great shaping/topping?

Was trying to figure out how you lifted 30 gal smart pots full of soil from veg room to flower room - sounds very heavy, but I guess doable with 2 people. 20 gal no prob. You dont have any probs getting through the doorways to the veg room just before flip with that wide of a canopy? Its like 3' wide at flip?

Assuming you go directly to 1 plant under each light at flip, but it looks like maybe you have it set up to be able to move your lights closer together initially and then spread them apart (you said 6' at one point I think) as they get further into flower. That sounds a little crazy spreading lights and plants with all the stakes and trellis as you progress. But maybe with the bamboo holding the trellis its all pretty secure. So you vary between like 3' and 6' centers on the lights?

Perpetual is great to spread out the work, but some of the downsides are that the timing can be challenging with multiple strains and it does not allow for the room to be entirely cleaned, reset and sterilized between rounds. Allows for a much smaller veg space for sure. There are pros and cons to everything.

Love seeing your work, and thanks again for taking time to answer questions.

 

[neverbreak]

Perpetual trees is a great idea once you get the timing down of your strains nothing beats it.

it's pretty much the ideal way to grow. who doesn't like a constant harvest?

neverbreak

 

[Capulator]

What medium are you putting those air lines into in the smart pots? Air diffusers into soil?

those diffusers are a POS>.

 

[ttystikk]

Thanks Don Juan. Really look forward to hearing from you when you have time.

No Co2 at all in your setup?

Is it possible to go from ez cloner to bulk rockwool? As far as cuts into cubes in a tray with a dome - takes a long time and seems to stress them a lot more than a cloner.

Chemdog #4 looks like a really bushy strain or you are masterful at training it - are you just topping the spreading them like crazy? It would of course be very challenging to shape for example a blue dream like that even with daily topping, but even something less prone to stretch could still be challenging to get such a short, wide canopy with that many tops... any recommendations for great shaping/topping?

Was trying to figure out how you lifted 30 gal smart pots full of soil from veg room to flower room - sounds very heavy, but I guess doable with 2 people. 20 gal no prob. You dont have any probs getting through the doorways to the veg room just before flip with that wide of a canopy? Its like 3' wide at flip?

Assuming you go directly to 1 plant under each light at flip, but it looks like maybe you have it set up to be able to move your lights closer together initially and then spread them apart (you said 6' at one point I think) as they get further into flower. That sounds a little crazy spreading lights and plants with all the stakes and trellis as you progress. But maybe with the bamboo holding the trellis its all pretty secure. So you vary between like 3' and 6' centers on the lights?

Perpetual is great to spread out the work, but some of the downsides are that the timing can be challenging with multiple strains and it does not allow for the room to be entirely cleaned, reset and sterilized between rounds. Allows for a much smaller veg space for sure. There are pros and cons to everything.

Love seeing your work, and thanks again for taking time to answer questions.

Not true re. running perpetual systems. You assumed that people only do this all in one room, when in fact that's not the best way to do it. I have 4 separate zones, each with its own climate controller, to set ideal conditions for each zone for their specific needs for where they are in their cycle. Trying to average it for a whole roomful isn't ideal. Also, having separate rooms allows for COMPLETE cleaning, and because the grow its broken up into separate pieces, infestations have a much more difficult time spreading.

 

[purpleberry]

I see a lot more reasons not to do perpetual, running the same temp and humidity all the time isn't ideal, and if you had 3-4 rooms why not just run each room on its own cycle and clean out and start over. Having different plants at different cycles would mean mixing different tanks for each plants needs, and I don't see them needing water at the same time, This would require being in there everyday running water. I get my plants on a cycle of every other day. spreads work out. I don't see how you could dial in a rooms climate and the plants fertilizer needs when every plant is going to need something different. I believe strongly in running different levels of temp, humidity co2, ppms at different stages of plants growth. This is what dialing in a room is about, its not about running it all the same all the time. Its the little things that add up and make a huge difference in what you can get out of a plant.

 

[ttystikk]

I see a lot more reasons not to do perpetual, running the same temp and humidity all the time isn't ideal, and if you had 3-4 rooms why not just run each room on its own cycle and clean out and start over. Having different plants at different cycles would mean mixing different tanks for each plants needs, and I don't see them needing water at the same time, This would require being in there everyday running water. I get my plants on a cycle of every other day. spreads work out. I don't see how you could dial in a rooms climate and the plants fertilizer needs when every plant is going to need something different. I believe strongly in running different levels of temp, humidity co2, ppms at different stages of plants growth. This is what dialing in a room is about, its not about running it all the same all the time. Its the little things that add up and make a huge difference in what you can get out of a plant.

Wow. You just asked me why I don't run each room on its own cycle? We're talking about scheduling for perpetual grows. Go back and read what I wrote... Each room IS on its own cycle, staggered with all the rest, so the WHOLE THING is run on a perpetual schedule.

 

[purpleberry]

Not really a perpetual grow, More like a multiple rooms coming off at different times. In most cases when talking perpetual its done in one room and that really what I was addressing. I wasn't really trying to direct my comment to you, I just misunderstood how you were doing your rooms.
Most people aren't going to build different rooms. If you have one room to flower perpetual is just a bad idea.
If your doing perpetual harvests from different rooms there really isn't any down sides.

 

[ttystikk]

Not really a perpetual grow, More like a multiple rooms coming off at different times. In most cases when talking perpetual its done in one room and that really what I was addressing. I wasn't really trying to direct my comment to you, I just misunderstood how you were doing your rooms.
Most people aren't going to build different rooms. If you have one room to flower perpetual is just a bad idea.
If your doing perpetual harvests from different rooms there really isn't any down sides.

Perhaps you would be better off making fewer assumptions about what 'most people' might want/do/be interested in... otherwise, you're likely to miss some good conversations.

Doing a well scheduled, closely staggered perpetual garden with several rooms is not that much more expensive and the rewards certainly justify the expense. Total consistency, maintained over several crops simultaneously, all coming due at different times so as to better manage workflow. Show me a better way. ANY better way, brother. I'm all ears!

 

[purpleberry]

We are talking about apples and oranges, I read perpetual and thought that's what we are talking about. In the world of growing when you say perpetual grow 99% of time we are talking about one flower room. Almost everyone who does multiple flower rooms is going to do the same thing and stagger there rooms, I wouldn't compare it to a perpetual room, which is a terrible way to grow.

 

[ttystikk]

Nowhere in the definition of perpetual grow does it require a single room- or any specific number, for that matter.

Indeed, a one room perpetual has lots of downsides, but can work for those who autoflower, for instance.

The best way to run multiple bloom rooms is to stagger them. Having multiple rooms leads to additional benefits. For instance, controlling and early detection of pests is much more effective if the garden is split up amongst several sealed rooms.

 

[mountain]

those diffusers are a POS>.

Yes, the ends fall off pretty much immediately. I havent really heard of people pumping air into soil/coco/etc - but maybe there is something to explore there... Hopefully something better than those diffusers ;)

 

[mountain]

Not true re. running perpetual systems. You assumed that people only do this all in one room, when in fact that's not the best way to do it. I have 4 separate zones, each with its own climate controller, to set ideal conditions for each zone for their specific needs for where they are in their cycle. Trying to average it for a whole roomful isn't ideal. Also, having separate rooms allows for COMPLETE cleaning, and because the grow its broken up into separate pieces, infestations have a much more difficult time spreading.

IME "perpetual harvest" usually means in one room and what you are doing is usually called "staggered rooms". But no need to quibble over semantics - just be careful you don't assume what I was talking about included "staggered rooms" either ;)

There are pros and cons for every system.

Staggered rooms has a lot going for it - smaller veg space needed to feed all of them (can be a juggling act), ability to dial env conditions in each space based on timing, spread out the workload more evenly, and of course allow for complete cleaning which perpetual harvest in one room does not. Separate rooms staggered or not can also flipflop and spread the power load. Can also mitigate some risk in case one room fails or has problems.

A few drawbacks - and each can decide for themselves how to weigh the pros and cons- include: more setup cost [more walls or buildings to build, probably separate env control, res, etc. for each room], more separate systems to maintain for each room (and separate nutes to mix for any type of stagger/perpetual), more 'edge space' regarding light footprint (most efficient would be one big circle, not lots of separate little squares of course), less ability to swap or reassign 'backup' veg plants between rooms if one has a problem if they are staggered, and some people prefer to not spread out the workload and instead have lots of work sometimes and take more time off/vacation other times. There is a certain amount of simplicity if there is no staggering/flipflop/perpetual at all and usually much better light 'edge' footprint - but there are always tradeoffs.

There are of course other considerations as well - these are just a few of the pros/cons for each individual and unique situation to weigh.

Not trying to knock your methods, just saying there are always pros and cons and not sure there is a clear winner that fits for everyone or every situation, just personal preference and unique situations - so no need to take it personally at all. There is a lot going for your approach and you seem to be rockin it. Always love seeing/reading about what works well for people, always new things to learn and new perspectives.

Particularly agree on the high value of sterilizing rooms between rounds. Depending on how late into flower someone is comfortable burning sulfur though, this may matter less. But not sure its a good idea at all after wk 3 - though some do it all the way through. Whats your experience with sulfur late in flower?

You said you are doing vertical - have you calculated the differences in light 'edge' using vert in one large flower room vs the 4 separate ones you have now? Would guess the difference would be pretty significant if you add up how many plants will have dark 'sides' - but would depend on how you are setting it up. Are you doing an alternating light/plant checkerboard layout? Would be curious to explore this with you.

 

[ttystikk]

Again, the definition of perpetual grow is running multiple stages of plants simultaneously. It makes NO distinction between having different stages in one space or in several. Trying to create a different term just to define the same process is cumbersome. You're staggering plants, not rooms. ... and in order to have a perpetual operation, you are by definition staggering stages.

Moving on- there is one more under recognized advantage to a multi room perpetual setup, which is the substantial advantage of space efficiency over time. You see, in a standard grow tiny plants are placed in a huge room to veg for weeks, even a month or more for trees. All that time, the space between those plants- never mind most of the light and cooling for that whole big room- is GOING TO WASTE.

Consider instead a properly managed perpetual op; Each stage of plants in veg would have an environment customized to their needs: light, water, nutes- and most importantly, spacing. Thus, no space is wasted. It works better and grows plants faster, too! A veg area that is well staged can be surprisingly small- like just an eighth of the total square footage in bloom- and still support many big flowering rooms, which is where we'll go next in this discussion of efficiency.

So bloom ready plants hit the bloom room, and not one moment is wasted in additional veg time. The plants have been delivered at a size where they will fully fill the trellis in their bloom zone by the end of stretch. They again get nutes, water, light, space and darkness exactly suited to their needs- and of course will throughout the rest of the bloom process.

Long and short is that I can basically double the output of a given square footage by taking it from single cycle to a good perpetual design. The workload doesn't increase, because it is better spread out over time. Consistency improves, as does quality. Invasions of parasites- fungal, insects- are naturally contained and are much less likely to spread before detection. Control efforts are also easier for the same reasons.

Finally, because the system drives consistency, it becomes an excellent platform for testing. Multiple rooms of similar design can run all manner of equipment, technique, strain and environmental experiments- all with a control right nearby, but conveniently separate.

Since there are several rooms, it becomes possible to run half at a time, saving up to half on the capacity of installed AC, and reducing total power draw. If the operation uses water chilling, one remote plant can run the entire place, and only has to be big enough to cool veg and half of the bloom zones at any given time.

I am outlining the future of commercial indoor gardening here, people- it makes little difference if I'm talking about OGs or green onions. The careful reader will notice the long term thrust of my ideas has always been towards higher efficiency, or the gaining of higher outputs with lower costs. Just staggering a couple of bedrooms allows the home hobbyist to gain most of these benefits, and who wants to buy more gear or pay a bigger light bill than they have to?

 

[Capulator]

We can make a thread for perpetual harvesting if needed. Let's get back on topic of growing non hydro trees.

 

[El Cerebro]

you guys need to get terminology straight and not clog this thread.

perpetual just means continual cycling by taking of cuts from mother plants. 'interval' growing is what you are trying to argue about, plants at different stages, periodic addition of new plants on a schedule, etc.