Overuse of Eagle 20 and systemics makes resistant fungi

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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More people should know this and more people should be talking about this instead of debating it. It's a fact. Read the label, do even the most cursory research on it and I guarantee that you will learn what is known--single-mode action 'cides can easily force pathogens to become resistant. Therefore, it is highly important that people who regularly battle PM know and understand that they MUST incorporate other methods of control, especially those that use physical barriers and multi-site modes of action against the fungi.

Don't believe me? Read it for yourself.

Eagle 20 Label said:
Eagle 20EW is a systemic fungicide whose active ingredient, myclobutanil, inhibits the synthesis of ergosterol, an important component of fungus cell walls. Myclobutanil, a demethylation inhibitor (DMI), hinders sterol synthesis, which restricts
cell wall development in targeted pathogens.
That's a single-site mode of action. But wait, there's more, and it's not that hard to find.
Eagle 20 Label said:
General Use Precautions
Fungicide Resistance Management
Eagle 20EW belongs to the sterol demethylation inhibitor (DMI) class of fungicides and is classified as a Group 3 Fungicide by EPA. Since certain fungi can develop resistance to this class of products, the use of Eagle 20EW should be part of a resistance management strategy that includes alternation and/or tank mixing with fungicides of different modes of action. Consult your local or state agricultural authorities for resistance management strategies that are appropriate for your disease management program.
Maybe I should put up a poll to find out how many people don't know this, yet are using this product rather freely (read: carelessly). Naw, maybe the responses I get will be enough.

Before someone pops in and says that the label doesn't say it will make resistant powdery mildew, please, let me put your mind at ease here--PM is fungi, and there are many species of the PM fungi. Therefore, the label needs to be more broad in its discussion.

But wait, there's more evidence that speaks to the real truth of the matter.
http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.cornell.edu/NewsArticles/Cuc_Cntct_Fcides.htm
Margaret Tuttle McGrathAssociate Professor
Department of Plant Pathology
Long Island Horticultural Research and Extension Center
Cornell University

Protectant (contact) fungicides are an important component of the fungicide program recommended for managing powdery mildew in cucurbits.
They play a critical role in delaying
development of resistance to systemic fungicides.

The fungus causing cucurbit powdery mildew has an established track record worldwide of being able to develop resistance to systemic fungicides.

Most systemic fungicides are at risk for resistance development because they have single-site mode of action. Thus modification of one gene in the pathogen may be enough to enable the pathogen to resist the action of the fungicide.
Just tell me more evidence is needed, I'll find it.
 
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does banner max have a different mode of action then eagle 20? thats the rotation ive always heard works so i assume it does.
 
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Makes perfect sense, like all antibiotics, antifungals, if you don't kill it completely it always comes back stronger. The smaller lifeforms evolve so much more quickly than us. Great research, Sea. So do you have a lineup you prefer? I remember you've been saying you've been battling pm lately.
 

Confuten1

exploitin strengths - perfectin weaknessess
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does banner max have a different mode of action then eagle 20? thats the rotation ive always heard works so i assume it does.
^^^^
Yeah, what he said.

This is a great point Sea, and since ive had to use some nuclear ish lately, Ive been pondering aswell. I guess the biggest challange in this (besides lazinessess and miseducation of the truth and ramifications of not rotating pesticides and the implications of bugs/molds and other less desireables building immunities basically creating superbugs) would be the cost!! Its hard to convience a broke and shoestring farmer to invest 500-600$ and more on pesticides when in his mind, one just did the trick. I guess we jus all need to do out job and spread the word; thus, GREAT THREAD. no suprise 5 stars on this thread and only 6 comments so far.

Confu...
 

Snowblind

Kush Mints x Animal Cookie Bx2 Specialist
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Im starting to realize that I cant grow truly healthy cannabis because of PM issues here in Northern Cali without going nuclear. It sucks. Im man enough to admit it.....There are certain places, and certain plants, that simply should not be grown if you truly care about everything involved, however, I digress.......It's a constant battle.....no eagle 20 for me or Banner Max so far.......
 

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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638
The key is in rotation of treatments, and the article I linked by that Cornell U professor is a beginning.

This is my MAJOR TIP OF THE DAY for anyone who's looking to find factual information--Google Scholar.

Google Scholar has made the arena of 'research assistant', which is/can be an incredibly high paying job, almost invalid. I had a friend who's a librarian by schooling, ended up a research assistant (even worked for one of those places that takes apart disasters to find out what happened) and one day she called complaining that she couldn't find one particular paper's citations. She gave me the author name and the paper, and within 5 minutes I had six citations for her. And, this is the real kicker--I found them FOR FREE. Research assistants have to pay to gain access to libraries of published papers, etcetera, and those fees can be in the range of $20K/year, just to give y'all a feel, and in case anyone ever wondered why the science types can be so precious over their hard work. It all costs.

GOOGLE SCHOLAR. Learn it, live it, love it. That's about my best advice for anyone out there.

Makes perfect sense, like all antibiotics, antifungals, if you don't kill it completely it always comes back stronger. The smaller lifeforms evolve so much more quickly than us. Great research, Sea. So do you have a lineup you prefer? I remember you've been saying you've been battling pm lately.
Rotation is absolutely key, but I did end up having to use the Eagle 20 to really knock it out as the other Tx's were only keeping it at bay. My problem was PM vectored by the root aphids, which, for some reason(s?) seemed to have made it more virulent, or the plants less able to withstand the assault. However, going to a strong anti-fungal like E20 doesn't mean I drop my other Tx strategies, far from it. Stylet oil, OxiDate, Sonata (don't have Serenade), along with utilizing a full suite of microbes and ensuring top health and environmental conditions for the plants when/wherever possible. And aspirin water, gotta remember to keep that in the arsenal, too.
Aspirin Water Helps Plants


This thread is not about what PM products to use, it is very specific in its goal--to teach those who are using (and overusing) Eagle 20 that it can bring about resistance. The thread on treating PM systemically is what's spurred this because it's very clear to me and others who've bothered to do the tiniest bit of footwork to educate ourselves that many, MANY others don't, that they don't even read the label, don't understand what they've read or don't comprehend the problems that they could be bringing down upon themselves and others by their rampant misuse of dangerous products.

Hopefully more people will take this and extrapolate to other areas, just like amstercal mentioned.
 
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So being that Eagle 20 kills the PM systematically would that mean you dont necessarily have to soak your whole plant in the eagle 20 solution. Will spraying a little be enough to get into the plants system and kill the PM?
 
the thing you forget to remember is that these life forms often become stronger and more resistance to everything anyway. like you say you needed to use the product yourself. i agree with your point but where there is a lack of natural strong alternatives what can you do?

even if you use lemon juice or whatever to change the ph, they could potentially become resistant to that too. and develop to be able to survive any ph.
the ideal solution would be something that competes with the pm or like an vacination type inoculation that you could give the plants early in life. or develope plants with a high immunity to pm... there must be a gene out there...
 
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i understand how mites build up resistant when sparying every couple of days... but with eagle 20 you should only spray once in veg. so once every 3 months. so on this next round thats in veg should i not hit them with the eagle 20 and use banner max? then use eagle 20 for the next round?
 

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,629
638
the thing you forget to remember is that these life forms often become stronger and more resistance to everything anyway. like you say you needed to use the product yourself. i agree with your point but where there is a lack of natural strong alternatives what can you do?

even if you use lemon juice or whatever to change the ph, they could potentially become resistant to that too. and develop to be able to survive any ph.
the ideal solution would be something that competes with the pm or like an vacination type inoculation that you could give the plants early in life. or develope plants with a high immunity to pm... there must be a gene out there...
If pH shift were so easily evolved to handle, then products such as the lemon juice or Greencure could easily be demonstrated to be completely ineffective in a rather short period of time. I think I'll include OxiDate in that, especially if it's the 27%H2O2/2%PAA (paracetic acid) formulation as the PAA literally breaks cell membranes.

That's not to say that organisms can't become adapted to a wider range of pH values, just that I haven't found anything that shows that degree of evolutionary capability with products that act in more than one manner.

Reading the paper you will see that the author recommends a whole suite of treatments, also including horticultural oils, to which no resistance will be built up. Please, feel free to read the whole thing, it's not a long read at all, but it *is* highly informative.
i understand how mites build up resistant when sparying every couple of days... but with eagle 20 you should only spray once in veg. so once every 3 months. so on this next round thats in veg should i not hit them with the eagle 20 and use banner max? then use eagle 20 for the next round?
That's not quite how it works. Repeated use of the 'cide in such a manner as to let ANYTHING live, and in such a manner as to encourage better reproductive rates for those that do live by removing the "competition" of the orgs that can't live through Tx is what helps make resistance. It's even easier for organisms to evolve resistance when a single-site mode product (a product that affects life processes at a single "site" on a molecular level) is used carelessly or not to the point of killing everything. This is true of antibiotics and antimicrobial products we're sold to use in our homes (the vast majority of people have no idea what they're doing when using this crap).


Repeated use of Eagle 20, especially in absence of a good, balanced, well thought-out and planned IPM (integrated pest management) *will* create resistant fungi. I don't have the time to look up Banner Max, but if it's another single-site mode of action, it will have to be rotated and other methods used the same way as with Eagle 20. Rotation is part of the IPM, as is utilization of physical barrier methods, i.e. horticultural oil.

While it isn't exactly part of this conversation, I agree that plant vitality (health, resistance to pests and disease) is a key component here. In cucurbit farming it's recommended to simply grow varieties that are resistant to PM as part of an IPM. Cannabis growers aren't there yet, so we've got to come up with other solutions. Immune system health is likely the best way to go about this for us, along with extreme care when using the heavy duty products like Eagle 20, etc.

Aspirin Water Helps Plants

I use lysine as an immune system booster in place of Valtrex when I get cold sores. It works just as quickly when used in exactly the same manner as Valtrex, but its mode of action is vastly different in that it boosts my immune system response instead of attacking the virus that resides in my nerve tissues.

If you do end up in a place where you have to use a product like Eagle 20, my goal HERE is to ensure that as many people as possible know and understand what type of product they're using and what the potential is with abusive, careless misuse.
 
survival of everything is based on the same values. im sure given the time they could evolve to with stand plenty.
look at animals which are poisonous to evade being eaten. i do agree with misused but im sure the same people will flush there nutrient run off down the drain, have high carbon foot print lighting etc etc.
i do agree these should be used responsibly, even governments have guidlines as to how farmers should use these products due to the different issues they can cause.
to find a true cure you would have to study it in great detail, the most friendly one would be a biological attack of some kind. i like the alternate mould idea you have. if it works, bottle it and sell it lol
 

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