Overuse of Eagle 20 and systemics makes resistant fungi

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Interesting thoughts and findings Seamaiden. I thought I had put thewhole PM treatment questionsbehind me with the discovery of Eagle 20. I have found that Eagle 20 works so well I don't need to use neem oil or worry so damn much about higher humidity. My last round I was able to take them the FULL duration for the first time because there was not a spec of PM the whole way through.

My thinking was that I had irradicated PM from my plants from the inside out. Like when you get clones from someone and PM apprears a week or 2 later. The PM was in the plant since before you got the clone. It just takes time to become visable.

So in my case since I never take clones from outside sources. I take cuts from the previous generations of the same strains all under my care. I spray Eagle once in week 4 of a 6 week veg. My plants should be totally free of PM internally and thus only become infected I or someone else unknowingly transmits PM or if poluted air happens to enter my growroom right?

So why would I need to rotate sprays if PM has not been seen on my plants in 2 cycles. Not trying to argue, just curious if I'm missing something. If its not there its not there right?
 

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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The specific need arises to rotate because of the fact that the mode of action of single-site mode products only affects one site, on a molecular level, and in such a manner as to allow survivability. I don't know if fungi can share the genes for success the way bacteria do, but even without this mechanism we all know that only a few need to survive to make more, and their ability to survive one particular onslaught is now increased, and so on, and so on.

This is also why the typical physical barrier controls are also needed, as they can help prevent fruiting bodies from spreading disease. Now, with no presentation of disease, is there really a need to include such harsh controls as Eagle 20? In my opinion at this time, I feel it is not necessary to use those products, but do believe that regular use of other controls is, especially if PM (especially ag/landscape sourced species) is prevalent in your area.

The other side of the equation you're looking at here, the other side I hope to focus on and show some success with, is using the plant's immune system against PM, just as I would with a fish's immune system or even my own.

Budseye... I'm not sure how to approach your questions. Some things, some stressors, are survivable, but not by all organisms. In other words, not all organisms have the ability or propensity to mutate to the degree that they can adapt quickly (this could also be thought of as an aspect of punctuated equilibrium, which, if you haven't heard of it, is another model for Darwinian evolution, which is predicated on the concept of SLOW evolutionary change). Pandas, cheetahs, many organisms are unable to adapt quickly to changes. Mmm... lemme link you to Punctuated Equilibrium because the hypothesis, which may now be an accepted theoretical addendum to Darwinism, sure tripped me out pretty hard when I first learned of it. I won't EVEN get into epigenetics here. Examples of punctuated equilibrium.

Other organisms can indeed mutate very quickly--bacteria are extremely notable in this group because they can share packets of genetic information (the Code to Survival, if you will), not only among individuals of the same species but even ACROSS SPECIES! This is precisely why antibiotics and antimicrobials are so bad, because they not only don't have a 100% kill rate, but those bacteria that *do* survive are able to share the code with other bacteria. Now we have superbugs (it was one of those superbugs that killed my grandfather last year, in fact).

Yet, they can't tolerate steam. We know that many species, more than have been described scientifically, of microbes are what are known as 'extremophiles', i.e. they prefer to live in extreme environments. The microbes in the hot pools at Yellowstone, those found at the bottom of the sea, Antarctic ice microbes, microbes found living on volcanic sea vents--all of these are extremophiles from which it is believe everything, including us, evolved. So you can steam those things, but most other microbes have long ago lost the ability to live in extreme conditions anymore and so, when exposed to dramatic shift in pH, for instance, will all die.

Have I helped make it any clearer, what it is I'm trying to convey here?

Now, hopefully you can see the issue with Eagle 20 at this point and how it's different from things like stylet or neem oil in that they don't act in the same manner at all.
 
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Interesting thoughts and findings Seamaiden. I thought I had put thewhole PM treatment questionsbehind me with the discovery of Eagle 20. I have found that Eagle 20 works so well I don't need to use neem oil or worry so damn much about higher humidity. My last round I was able to take them the FULL duration for the first time because there was not a spec of PM the whole way through.

My thinking was that I had irradicated PM from my plants from the inside out. Like when you get clones from someone and PM apprears a week or 2 later. The PM was in the plant since before you got the clone. It just takes time to become visable.

So in my case since I never take clones from outside sources. I take cuts from the previous generations of the same strains all under my care. I spray Eagle once in week 4 of a 6 week veg. My plants should be totally free of PM internally and thus only become infected I or someone else unknowingly transmits PM or if poluted air happens to enter my growroom right?

So why would I need to rotate sprays if PM has not been seen on my plants in 2 cycles. Not trying to argue, just curious if I'm missing something. If its not there its not there right?

Eagle 20 isn't truly systemic in that the active ingredient doesn't freely flow through the plant xylem & phloem... or at least this is my understanding. It will move a little, but not a lot, hence the uniform & complete coverage needs. I've seen pm persist in rooms that were treated by E20... likely they didn't get complete coverage & it persisted... perhaps stronger/more resistant.

Also, the underlying issues in there never went addressed, and the PM would begin to thrive again in 30 days or so.

I've even done complete & proper E20 treatments in dirty places, where after 4 weeks or so, the PM would return... constantly in the air, constantly waiting for the opportunity to germ.

Your method appears to be vulnerable, esp over time... lest the underlying/root causes of environmental conditions become addressed. And you might just breed some resistant fungi in the mean time...
 
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I'm too late at this stage (just started week 3 of flower) to spray anything preventative on my plants. They are huge and are locked into 2 layers of netting. There are absolutely no signs of PM and humidity has been between 55 and 60% steadily for over a week now.

I suppose burning sulfur burning would be the only logical method of prevention at this stage. But only for one more week given that one should not burn sulfur past week 4 of flower. I guess I could also try and keep RH low...But I'm still convinced that I'm good with the Eagle 20 sprayed a month ago. Time will tell.

You got me thinking though S.M. I will definitley use several methods on my outdoor this year.
 

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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I would use several methods if possible beside sulfur. I've only used E20 once, that was after using the following treatments, all of which definitely knocked the PM back but I personally believe that the reason why I had to resort to using it was because it was a secondary infection vectored by root aphids, the plants had absolutely nothing with which to fight off the main infection even with control of fruiting bodies.

Stylet oil, OxiDate (I seriously dislike working with this stuff, but it's one of the safest products you can use, all the way up to the day of harvest), Serenade, Sonata, Greencure and its equivalents, are all part of the PM IPM. There's another part, growing plants that are resistant to PM, but cannabis growers don't quite have that luxury (yet?).

For my OD I plan on incorporating more compost teas, utilizing microbial life to simply out-compete pathogens. Let's hope it works!

I'm glad I've gotten someone thinking. :)
 
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One of the things over looked is that PM can live on things other than the plant. If yu keep treating the plant bbut not the space you will have it back. This is where a sulfur burnner comes in. Outdoors PM lives in the bark of trees, and can even overwinter in mild climates. But some even spores will survive a cold snowy winter.


One thing I would like to add is the Seranade you buy in the garden section of your local store is NOT the same as the ag version.

For me outdoors I use sonota and stylet weekly. It is rated as a 14 day effective period but you never get 100% coverage. The very nice thing about it is you can add it in with your ACT just before application. That way you have a full slate of microbes that provide no place for the PM to take hold. Think of it as a full parking lot LOL.

Proper application is also key outdoors. cides ( I like that Sea) require the proper pressure as well as nozzle to apply. A backpack sprayer is better than a hand pump. I have found the best way to handle an outdoor garden for me. I have several quad/atv mount tanks. They range from 12 gallons to 25. I replace the short hose that come with them with a longer length hose. I then use one of those portable batter jumper they sell at Kragens. This way I get a high pressure spray with very good coverage. They also use a diaphragm pump so the ACT is not damaged.


Indoors a fogmaster JR works the best followed by the new 5 liter Hudson sprayer . Spray bottle is not recommended but will work

nc
 
hey seamaiden just wanted to add alittle something

It is not only Eagle 20, but numerous Pesticides that a disease or pest can become immuned to. That is why it is so important to not just use control methods, but also prevention. Prevention includes sterlizing before even starting, along with prevention is a bunch of precaution measures, one of them being rotation. To prevent a disease or pest from entering your production site you need to implement rotation of some sort otherwise eventually you will end up with problems.

Same thing with monocropping, monocroppign will lead to the demise of a crop if dont year after year, that is why diversity is key. You grow the same crop year after year after year, you are bound to have a visit by some pest or disease, just because the evironment remains so constant, no diversity is making it uncomfortable for visitors.
 

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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Bobby, absolutely agreed. But right now this product seems to be on everyone's minds and lips and ncga and I had a discussion that fomented this thread and another thread that he started. I wasn't sure if I wanted to be specific or general, and landed on specificity for this one.

I'm not sure how one could go about sterilizing the outdoors, so it seems most logical to me that IPM that includes hosting competitive organisms might be a better approach than the total destruction that's required for anything resembling a sterile environment. Indoors, absolutely it needs to be done because that environment is much more unbalanced, biologically-speaking.

I ought to get a backpack sprayer, but the smallest one I've seen is 4gals and for me that's gross overkill.
 

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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Awesomeness.

My cut of The White, that I've had for at least three years now, that was treated with E20 along with all the other girls in that box (and their pots, the soil, the inside and outside of the veg-table-box, and the floor, and the lights and the corners and everything else) is now showing the beginning signs of powdery mildew.

I will not be treating with E20 again. While I must consider that I may not have fully covered everything when I sprayed, I must also consider that this is a resistant strain. Not entirely unlikely given my proximity, even if at some altitude, to the central valley and all that agriculture.

Fuck. This is almost as bad as furunculosis, except at least I'm not watching a poor fish trying to live with a giant hole in its body.
 
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My cut of The White...

Fuck. This is almost as bad as furunculosis, except at least I'm not watching a poor fish trying to live with a giant hole in its body.

Yeah, I've seen this before too... horrible for the fish... and to watch...



Do a full dip, but just with fresh cuts, so no medium/root system & no spraying/fumigants... know there is still risk exposure, but in a couple of cups it can be contained pretty well... of coarse the normal garb too.

Like this route w I'm trying to break cycles & quarantine... do a full swirl/dunk of the entire plant this way, and just a small cut at that... with most of the foliage removed already.

Double dip her w a double moa... Heritage w the E20... or Bayleton. Like Heritage as it is particularly effective against PM.

LOL... it always feels strange giving out this info... so many out there will use it the wrong way...

But damn girl... don't give up on her yet!!! ;-)
 

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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My other sig line says "Persistence and determination, alone, are omnipotent."

Yes, I quote obscure presidents. :makeup
 

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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I went on a rant, and then decided against it.

First, if you have Eagle 20, I seriously hope to HELL it has a label and that you've read it. At that point you're trying to convert so you only have to mix up a gallon or two.

Respirator isn't required, but I use one. DEFINITELY use a paper (Tyvek) suit, chemical resistant gloves, cover your shoes and head.

.9ml/gallon is equivalent to the 3oz/100gals Tx rate.
 
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I went on a rant, and then decided against it.

First, if you have Eagle 20, I seriously hope to HELL it has a label and that you've read it. At that point you're trying to convert so you only have to mix up a gallon or two.

Respirator isn't required, but I use one. DEFINITELY use a paper (Tyvek) suit, chemical resistant gloves, cover your shoes and head.

.9ml/gallon is equivalent to the 3oz/100gals Tx rate.
:mad0229: :headbang :mad0233:


:lipssealed :rofl



If you can smell it, you are getting exposure.
 
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I should also add, turn off your ventilation while spraying. No one likes to be hit in the face with chemicals when a fan causing backdraft! I need to get some of those tyvek suits in bulk. They carry them at the De Pot?
 
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I am sticking with Biological Fungicides for the time being. I have only used Eagle 20 sparingly and haven't seen PM return, and therefore want to retire that bottle of nasty shit. I just picked up a product called "Cease", which is 1.3% Bacillus Subtillis. I will rotate that with Actinovate fungicide, and maybe occasionally do a copper soap or DM Zone foliar. I seem to have an issue with some old moms in my veg room getting "Downy Mildew", which Eagle 20 does nothing for anyway. PM is not a problem for me as long as my plants stay healthy, my temps and RH stay in check, and my rooms stay clean and have enough constant air movement.

Anyone have any suggestions for other (safer) products to rotate as part of a more complete fungicide plan?
 
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Dude... In your spot I would nuke em... so much riding on the line & so much going on at the same time, just to keep things in rotation.

Chlorothalonil... try Spectro... has thiophanate methyl in it too.
Bayleton
Heritage

That'l be a four MOA attack... all of which have their particular benefits/effects.

Not knowing which type of fungal spotting is occurring... shotgun the heck out of it with real chems... all at once, thoroughly.

Cycle be broke. ;-)


Looking good over there... smokin on the last of your SourD this morning!!! lol
 

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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Pheno, I get mine at my local Lowe'sdown.

Green Mopho, physical barrier controls along with products like Greencure are what's recommended to be in rotation with products like Eagle 20. I'm not using it again, either. What I *do* need is more stylet or other horticultural oil, that's a fantastic physical barrier and comes highly recommended as part of a good powdery mildew IPM plan.

Also, when I was first gifted cuts FULL of PM I did two things--stuck 'em outside and hit 'em with a product I've never been able to find again called Soya'nara, a soybean oil-based product. It worked GREAT, but it goes rancid after a while.

But I mentioned putting them outside because I do happen to live in the mountains and high humidity is rarely a problem, nor is lack of "ventilation." Yet I was unable to correct one instance of gifted PM simply by doing the OD thing, and this was in a very low RH situation (it was below 30%, IIRC). It took the Soya'nara. I sure wish I could find that stuff again.

I've used cupric-based products for other fungus issues (black spot, more correctly known as Septoria fungus spp), never once considered it for PM. I must learn more about the Actinovate, because the PM began in the veggie garden downwind of the growing area, and then I believe it was likely vectored inside by the root aphids. I want to be as organic as possible in all growing areas, 100% I believe is achievable IF I'm able to control pests and disease adequately using other methods.
 
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