Please Advise- Too Buy Co2 Machine Or Not

[xavier7995]

You are very correct. He bought in several years ago for something around 500k, I think with some other folks as the other investors got to pick who ran it and apparently its some dude that shows up drunk all the time. Whole messy situation, but yeah, you have to pay people to sit and watch it and well, they don't come that cheaply even if it is a fairly easy job. From what I gather they are not hard to run if you are decent with a computer and have some level of technical knowledge of what the process is doing.

Overall, I get the impression that he wishes he went another route on producing extracts. Guy has the most hustle and innovation of everyone I have met so I am sure he will figure out a way to make it work. If nothing else going to talk him into taking his ball and going home, then fleeing to CO.

 

[ExtractPro]

This thread has quite the entertainment factor, especially the part about CO2 SFE becoming industry standard and BHO being obsolete in a few years.

SFE CO2 extraction is an awesome technology, To decaffinate whole coffee beans or extract a single terpene such as lavender from its plant biomass. But for cannabis, it's quite the mucked up situation. Cannabinoids are downright sticky and have a habit of rejecting terpenes and other trichrome biomolecules when extracted using a variety of different solvents, not to mention CO2.

There are technicians who have worked wonders with thier SFE CO2 systems, but more often than not the yield sit at half of what's possible with alcohols and hydrocarbon solvents. CO2 drags a ton of water and wax into the extract, and methods of polishing that downsteam hurt the complexity of the extract.

Bulk THC extraction and distillation will never go away. But I can tell you what will go away. Opinions on this board about 'BHO' that are the result of an unregulated industry and clandestine historic behavior surrounding cannabis.

Right now, so called 'solventless' extractions are huge because of the fear and paranoia pushed as an adgenda by those who can't or won't use hydrocarbons for cannabis extractions.

This will fade as regulations, testing, and licensing provide a stable platform for the reliability and purity of hydrocarbon extracts, such as is done on all other industries.

Then will come the bottom line. Downtimes and yield will reduce the success of companies who choose SFE over hydrocarbon. You can dump 100 pounds into a CO2 reactor, but it will still take 3 days to run and yield you only 10%, if it doesn't clog the system first.

Right now, it's terpene distillation (freeze drying prior to extraction) and cannabinoid extraction with CO2 or hydrocarbon and then blending back. This will run the industry and until the consuming public can be educated and informed that a single pure full spectrum extract is far more desirable.

Let's hope one day a device can be invented to make that possible

 

[Bulldog11]

@ExtractPro Very good post. I do disagree however. The best tasting, cleanest product, is Rosin, hands down. I don't care about yields, and putting aside possible contaminates from BHO and the others, rosin tastes WAY BETTER. As a consumer, I would buy the Rosin each and every day over any other concentrate.

So keep that in mind as well. All great points about yield, cost factors ext. The consumer often has final say, if the consumer educates themselves.

 

[ExtractPro]

I forgot to add Rosin in this post because it's not commercially viable and a simple "homebrew" method people seem to enjoy because it's immediate, has little equipment cost, and is achievable by all levels of cannabis users and growers.

To me, Rosin is disgusting. I prefer to isolate my extracts from the dust and debris that collect on a cannabis flower during its three months of growth, harvest, and storing. Also, there is a bunch of wax and plant debris still in the extract after pressing, and quite a bit amount of THC left in the rosin chip itself. I am also not convinced that during heating, that stuff is not transfered from the parchment or mesh bag itself, into the extract. And as someone stated before in this thread, Rosin is best from the best material. And Rosin supporters most likely pick premium material to squish, which isn't always the case in commercial or industrial operations. I have yet to see someone press trim, it always looks like cannabis flower to me. That isn't particularly sustainable, and as the desire for throughput grows, I would imagine yields would suffer.

I am not posting this to slam your point of view on rosin. I really am not impressed by any extracts on the market, CO2, hydrocarbon solvent, waterhash, distillates, so it is not a big surprise, that if you have mastered Rosin, or have identified a company you trust that produces superior quality product, that you would be drawn to it.

I prefer my full spectrum extracts and really don't have the pallet to deal with anything else. Once you taste the rainbow, you pallet starts to identify impurities in everything else you taste.

 

[Chris.psico2]

The problem with most SCFE units on the market are just botanical oil extractors. There is a new unit on the market the was made specifically to Extract Cannabinoids not essential oils. Dual chambers allow for continuous operation without having to stop to reload the unit. The unit use's a proprietary inline fraction system, that in turn allows for extractions that are 5 times faster. During this process the concentrate is dewaxed and impurities ate removed. For good sugar trim we get 12-15% and 68-75% THC.Terps range in the 1.5-2% range. The consistancy of the final product is similar to hydrocarbon extractions, Crumble to crystalline.

 

[gart600]

The problem with most SCFE units on the market are just botanical oil extractors. There is a new unit on the market the was made specifically to Extract Cannabinoids not essential oils. Dual chambers allow for continuous operation without having to stop to reload the unit. The unit use's a proprietary inline fraction system, that in turn allows for extractions that are 5 times faster. During this process the concentrate is dewaxed and impurities ate removed. For good sugar trim we get 12-15% and 68-75% THC.Terps range in the 1.5-2% range. The consistancy of the final product is similar to hydrocarbon extractions, Crumble to crystalline.

What company builds this machine?

 

[Chris.psico2]

What company builds this machine?

Paradigm Supercritical Innovations

I'm the US sales rep. so feel free to ask me any questions.

http://paradigmsupercritical.com/#menu

Few pics of product straight from the collection chamber, Dewaxed crumble or crystalline consistency all the time. Shatter or snap and pull from the collection chamber to the vacuum oven without having to winterize.

 

[1craighender]

ANy other opinions on CO2 machien or the Waters Machine?

Waters machines are not designed for Cannabis. They perform OK at high pressures and temps, which is OK for edibles, topicals or salves. You will not achieve high quality shatter, Vape pen oil or live resin using a waters machine. Check out the new Apeks 2000psi series systems. Cold Separtion, Highest Flow Rates on the market, free onsite training at your facility, and numerous other free classes on pre/post processing at there Denver facility.

 

[Chris.psico2]

Apex flow rates don't even come close to our units. Plus their pumps are expensive and high maintinance. I know an operator who runs all the big names machines and Says ours shines above all of them.

 

[1craighender]

I forgot to add Rosin in this post because it's not commercially viable and a simple "homebrew" method people seem to enjoy because it's immediate, has little equipment cost, and is achievable by all levels of cannabis users and growers.

To me, Rosin is disgusting. I prefer to isolate my extracts from the dust and debris that collect on a cannabis flower during its three months of growth, harvest, and storing. Also, there is a bunch of wax and plant debris still in the extract after pressing, and quite a bit amount of THC left in the rosin chip itself. I am also not convinced that during heating, that stuff is not transfered from the parchment or mesh bag itself, into the extract. And as someone stated before in this thread, Rosin is best from the best material. And Rosin supporters most likely pick premium material to squish, which isn't always the case in commercial or industrial operations. I have yet to see someone press trim, it always looks like cannabis flower to me. That isn't particularly sustainable, and as the desire for throughput grows, I would imagine yields would suffer.

I am not posting this to slam your point of view on rosin. I really am not impressed by any extracts on the market, CO2, hydrocarbon solvent, waterhash, distillates, so it is not a big surprise, that if you have mastered Rosin, or have identified a company you trust that produces superior quality product, that you would be drawn to it.

I prefer my full spectrum extracts and really don't have the pallet to deal with anything else. Once you taste the rainbow, you pallet starts to identify impurities in everything else you taste.

I agree with everyone regarding CO2. Just a year ago, people were not using CO2 to its full ability. However, today things have changed. I am seeing some truly amazing CO2 extracts. With the right parameters, you can achieve pure terpene extractions, with little to no wax, just pure liquid. You can also make a 95% pure THCA shatter nearly right out of the system. All of the above is not achieved with fraction separation, but more so, fractional extraction, and the ability for cold separation. A good CO2 machine should allow you to make parameter changes mid run, and allow for quick easy harvesting of oils without having to shut down the system. I am happy to share with anyone some excellent operating parameters and pre/post processing methods for the above mentioned products.

 

[SCH]

This thread has quite the entertainment factor, especially the part about CO2 SFE becoming industry standard and BHO being obsolete in a few years.

SFE CO2 extraction is an awesome technology, To decaffinate whole coffee beans or extract a single terpene such as lavender from its plant biomass. But for cannabis, it's quite the mucked up situation. Cannabinoids are downright sticky and have a habit of rejecting terpenes and other trichrome biomolecules when extracted using a variety of different solvents, not to mention CO2.

There are technicians who have worked wonders with thier SFE CO2 systems, but more often than not the yield sit at half of what's possible with alcohols and hydrocarbon solvents. CO2 drags a ton of water and wax into the extract, and methods of polishing that downsteam hurt the complexity of the extract.

Bulk THC extraction and distillation will never go away. But I can tell you what will go away. Opinions on this board about 'BHO' that are the result of an unregulated industry and clandestine historic behavior surrounding cannabis.

Right now, so called 'solventless' extractions are huge because of the fear and paranoia pushed as an adgenda by those who can't or won't use hydrocarbons for cannabis extractions.

This will fade as regulations, testing, and licensing provide a stable platform for the reliability and purity of hydrocarbon extracts, such as is done on all other industries.

Then will come the bottom line. Downtimes and yield will reduce the success of companies who choose SFE over hydrocarbon. You can dump 100 pounds into a CO2 reactor, but it will still take 3 days to run and yield you only 10%, if it doesn't clog the system first.

Right now, it's terpene distillation (freeze drying prior to extraction) and cannabinoid extraction with CO2 or hydrocarbon and then blending back. This will run the industry and until the consuming public can be educated and informed that a single pure full spectrum extract is far more desirable.

Let's hope one day a device can be invented to make that possible

Great post, thanks. In my opinion, the biggest issue with BHO extractions is the misunderstanding behind the purity of the butane. It is pretty easy to obtain 99.9% pure CO2 and butane. The difference is that in butane that o.01% impurities are nasty compounds like PAHs and other hydrocarbons that get concentrated in the extract and are nearly impossible to remove easily from the product. The 0.01% impurity in CO2 is generally water. As more states come online and regulations tighten, CO2 extracts will have a clear advantage in this regard.

 

[SCH]

Apex flow rates don't even come close to our units. Plus their pumps are expensive and high maintinance. I know an operator who runs all the big names machines and Says ours shines above all of them.

Volumetric flow rates are different than mass flow rates for CO2. Some people don't understand that.

 

[SCH]

ANy other opinions on CO2 machien or the Waters Machine?

I love my Waters System, and I get great extraction and analysis support.

 

[RadX]

edenlabs.com

AVOID EDEN LABS!! I put a deposit on a 5L2K on 6/20/16. They promised me delivery in 6 - 8 weeks. They do not follow up once you have put a deposit down. It took them until August to offer me a training. When I responded that I wanted the training on Aug. 18 & 19 they never wrote back to confirm. When I contacted them on Aug. 17 they informed me that I was on their schedule for the 18th even though they Never confirmed my request. I had to wait until Aug. 30/31 for my training. It too until Oct. 20th to send me my gear and they sent the wrong compressor. I received the correct compressor on Oct. 31 a full 4 months and 10 days after my initial deposit. The winterizer kit they sell for $15K sucks and is not fit for purpose. I asked to return it after never using it and they said they would give me a full refund as compensation for having to wait 4 months and 10 days after my deposit. Upon receiving the returned kit they told me that $400 in parts were missing. I packed everything that they sent. They have now had my winterizer kit for 2 months and have not refunded me a cent. They are now not responding to phone calls or emails. I have now hired a contract lawyer to sue them.