Question about veganics

[Bubblemang]

Any comments on AB 856. Cali's new organic law that was enacted due to contaminated animal organics? Seems like we are getting into certification, listings, and reviews here, but skipping over this huge piece of legislation.

Or maybe this quote talking about what is to be reviewed going forward:
"These materials include lime, gypsum, manures, compost and other materials previously not required to undergo organic review and certification."

http://jhbiotech.com/docs/AB-856-California-New-Organic-Law-Article.pdf

 

[Udyana Peace]

UP,

What would be the best way to use EM-1 (AEM) to help out this process?

I am going to make a dandelion extract and use a 1:1:100 ratio. One part AEM, one part molasses or agave nectar, and 100 parts water.

Does this sound correct to you?

Mrb

mrbong73

The formulas that I originally found online from the various EM-1 companies around the world had almost a universal ratio of water, carbohydrates and the mother culture, EM-1.

At that time there was only one single company in each country that was licensed to take the mother culture from Japan and then produce the products that are available for consumers. In the USA that has changed dramatically.

At any rate the ratio was the "20-2-2" formula - 20 parts water, 2 parts of a carbohydrate and 2 parts of original EM-1 and not AEM. This would give you, obviously, 24 oz. of pre-AEM and you would cover your plant material with this mix and then let the fermentation process begin until you reach < 3.8 pH with numbers reaching as low as 3.2 pH as 'gold'

Some formulas that I've looked at recommended adding 1 tsp. of a quality sea salt for the mineral content. I use the SEA-90 product (sea minerals) but you certainly do not need to go to that expense. Other formulas included the addition of 1 tablespoon (1/2 oz.) of glacial rock dust (the 'glacial milk' deal). A couple of teaspoons of kelp meal showed up quite often as well - it seed to depend on the location of the writer in relation to a sea shore from what I could tell.

Take your plant material and you want to break it up as much as possible and if you're using a small amount of say dandelions then you might want to consider running it through a food processor and turn it into a puree or something close. This will insure a quicker fermenting cycle from my experience.

Cover the smashed, pureed, whatever plant material with 2x - 3x of your EM-1, water and carbohydrate cocktail. That's it.

Carbohydrate sources that I've used (successfully) have included molasses, organic agave nectar, fresh papaya pulp, pineapple pulp, honey, maple syrup, apple juice or puree), beets and green coconut pulp. It really doesn't matter.

The items in bold are ones that have value outside their sugars with their own contributions to the final FPE.

HTH

UP

 

[Udyana Peace]

You know, I'm sorry vegan organic hort isn't part of the system officially. I know how much you love your certifications, and the system in general (rollseyes). That doesn't diminish the age old concept and practice of using plants to feed plants, ie green manure.

Uh huh - actually it comes from discussing 'organics' on cannabis boards where the usual/typical meme starts off with some bullsh*t about 'Well as everyone knows the term organics has several meanings' which always precedes some stupid concept about what the poster 'thinks' organic farming involves.

I have several issues with all of the 'official entities' on specific rulings but that's hardly the point. To disagree and then arrive at StonerGardens.com and make some dubious claim that it's all a 'gray area' is an indication of either general stupidity or one simply being obtuse.

The concept of feeding plants with plants has been used long before some pissed off vegetarians decided to re-write the basic laws of botany and biology. For one thing their whole diet regiment is built on several myths.

Ever try to source 'veganically-grown tofu'?

But here's what I don't get - you're claiming that you want to be a beacon of light on using plant material but you've done absolutely no review of current and past practices used in several parts of the world that date back centuries.

Instead you've spent a great deal of time of promoting some bottled mythical elixir that you originally claimed to be an introduction into Veganics but as MrBong pointed out the products that you're promoting contain bone meal and bat guano???????????????

Where's the 'veganics' in that? Biocanna couldn't figure out how to get a measurable Phosphorus (P) profile without using bovine and/or swine bone meal? Pathetic on several levels. This is 'new science'?

If this is your first experience on trying to bring a product to market then you should be taking notes furiously to improve your approach with future products or systems.

Then again you might find success at the next IGE extravaganza. From what I saw at the few I attended the most successful companies looking for shelf space at indoor garden stores had HUGE hospitality rooms where they had women with plastic tits passing out free booze, a lap dance and of course the obligatory lines of coke were available in the 'back room' - it was so 1980's.

Go NGW!!!!! Boola Boola!!!!!

UP

 

[mrbong73]

UP,
Great thanks for the clarification and additional info.
I got the 1:1:100 ratio from here for doing FPE.

So is it no good to use Activated EM for the FPE? I should be using the mother culture and treating it like a fresh batch of AEM?

I'd like to try the banana, squash, papaya FPE that I've read about.

Thanks as usual.

edit: Have you tried the EM-5?

 

[Udyana Peace]

So is it no good to use Activated EM for the FPE? I should be using the mother culture and treating it like a fresh batch of AEM?

Well - that's the claim from the EM-1 crowd. I am dubious as usual but I thought it better to give you the original 'approved' EM-1 process.

I would like to state upfront that while I use the EM-1 (type) products, some of their claims are beyond the pale. One distributor in either Australia or New Zealand promotes their version of sea salt that MUST be used for the AEM process to achieve optimum results - okay. So where does this magical sea salt come from?

They claim that the sea water is collected at depths >500 meters and ONLY during the full moon from the Sea of Taiwan.

Blow me.

UP

 

[Udyana Peace]

I'd like to try the banana, squash, papaya FPE that I've read about.

I have that one on hand at all times. Gil Carandang hit the ball out of the park with this combination, IMHO.

BTW - his book is now available at Amazon.com as an eBook (their Kindle technology) and is only $9.99 - instant gratification!! Gotta love eBooks!

Well worth the money as it covers almost every plant he's used at his Herbana Farms in the Philippines.

UP

 

[CT Guy]

UP,

My plants are super healthy right now, you know what I'm running for soil and additives. Is EM going to make that much of a difference in this instance? What would I expect to gain?

 

[mrbong73]

I read a post somewhere that had an easy method for FPE.
If I recall:

Take a 2 liter bottle, fill it most of the way with the plant material.
Add 1/2 liter of water.
Drill very tiny hole in cap. Place upside down in bucket. Let extract drip into bucket or whatever.
Dilute and there you go.

Any thoughts on this method?

 

[Udyana Peace]

UP,

My plants are super healthy right now, you know what I'm running for soil and additives. Is EM going to make that much of a difference in this instance? What would I expect to gain?

CT_Guy

I posted this on the Bokashi thread a couple of weeks back.

Here it is:

This study, How Effective are 'Effective Microorganisms (EM)? Results From a Field Study In Temerpate Climate was posted 6 months ago at Science Direct.

Research Institute of Organic Agriculture FiBL, Ackerstrasse
5070 Frick,
Switzerland

The abstract is pretty interesting on a number of points.

Effective microorganisms® (EM) is a microbial inoculant promoted to stimulate plant growth and soil fertility in agriculture. In our study we investigated the effects of EM on crop yields and soil microbial parameters in a 4-year field experiment under organic management (2003–2006) in Zurich, Switzerland.

Treatments of the EM preparations (i) the spraying agent EMA, (ii) EMA with the EM enriched organic substrate Bokashi and (iii) EMA with Bokashi and farmyard manure were applied in each year. As controls to treatments (i)–(iii) the same treatments were included with sterilised EM preparations and a control without EM application.

Crop yields in each year and the soil microbiological parameters soil respiration, microbial biomass (SIR, CFE), dehydrogenase activity and microbial community structure (RISA, CLSU) were determined in spring and autumn 2005 and spring 2006. In laboratory incubation experiments cellulose degradation, N mineralisation potential and N mineralisation from added substrate were determined.

The EMA application as spraying agent alone (treatment (i)) showed no significant differences to the untreated control (treatment without EM application) for any of the investigated parameters. Significant differences to the untreated control for crop yields and soil microbial parameters were found if Bokashi was applied in addition to EMA ((ii) and (iii)).

However, these differences were not consistent throughout the parameters and sampling times. Treatments with living EM compared with its sterilised control treatments showed no differences on any of the parameters. This indicates that the small effects observed were not caused by the EM microorganisms but rather by the nutrient inputs derived from Bokashi. The sampling time showed stronger effects on soil microbial biomass, soil respiration and microbial community structure when compared to the effects of the treatments.

We conclude from our results that ‘Effective microorganisms’ did not improve yields and soil quality during 4 years of application in this field experiment under the temperate climatic conditions of Central Europe.​

I would use the EM-1 technology (or even better Carandang's BIM approach) for foliar applications and leave the soil's microbes alone. Enough going on there as it is, eh?

I posted this so that others can draw their own conclusions. I was shocked and stunned given the claims made by Dr. Higa and his group for over 20 years.

UP

 

[Udyana Peace]

Here's a good review of fermenting plant materials, manures, et al. on a commercial level from India.

I've done the seed meal fermenting deal and used this instead of straight meals and it turned out to be interesting. Not interesting enough to repeat it. I still have 30 lbs. of this fermented mix.

All I need is a marketing program with an effective sales rep perhaps?

UP

 

[Bubblemang]

Uh huh - actually it comes from discussing 'organics' on cannabis boards where the usual/typical meme starts off with some bullsh*t about 'Well as everyone knows the term organics has several meanings' which always precedes some stupid concept about what the poster 'thinks' organic farming involves.

SO take it out on me huh? You expect us to all agree on semantics... really?

I have several issues with all of the 'official entities' on specific rulings but that's hardly the point. To disagree and then arrive at StonerGardens.com and make some dubious claim that it's all a 'gray area' is an indication of either general stupidity or one simply being obtuse.

Again, huh? Is this just a rant or directed at me?

The concept of feeding plants with plants has been used long before some pissed off vegetarians decided to re-write the basic laws of botany and biology. For one thing their whole diet regiment is built on several myths.

HUH? Again, I think you are taking this personally, and it has skewed your perception.

Ever try to source 'veganically-grown tofu'?

lol, huh? wtf are you talking about coot? I make my own pancetta, hardly a tofu fan.

But here's what I don't get - you're claiming that you want to be a beacon of light on using plant material but you've done absolutely no review of current and past practices used in several parts of the world that date back centuries.

See, here is the problem. I never claimed anything of that sort. I do my thing, and give the most honest answers I can. And please don't tell me what I have read, you are way over the top there.

Instead you've spent a great deal of time of promoting some bottled mythical elixir that you originally claimed to be an introduction into Veganics but as MrBong pointed out the products that you're promoting contain bone meal and bat guano???????????????

Ahh, here is the issues. You are still mad that I get so many hits. Get over it. I don't know what you are even talking about. And to say the "products" I promote contain animal is also FALSE. The product you reference (singular, old friend) is my soilless potting mix. I am not a nazi, I am going for quality and ease. Still, not making any valid points as to why you've been drinking the haterade.

Where's the 'veganics' in that? Biocanna couldn't figure out how to get a measurable Phosphorus (P) profile without using bovine and/or swine bone meal? Pathetic on several levels. This is 'new science'?

Uh... it's just in the potting mix. Which isn't really crucial in any way. I bought a damn palette and am using it up. Keep throwing insults around coot. I look up to you... because you've let me down.

If this is your first experience on trying to bring a product to market then you should be taking notes furiously to improve your approach with future products or systems.

Again, this is HOW CONFUSED YOU ARE STILL. I have nothing to sell or bring to market. I started a thread on riu and got tons of hits. I make myself available. You sir, are flat wrong in this case, and frankly, being a jerk.

Then again you might find success at the next IGE extravaganza. From what I saw at the few I attended the most successful companies looking for shelf space at indoor garden stores had HUGE hospitality rooms where they had women with plastic tits passing out free booze, a lap dance and of course the obligatory lines of coke were available in the 'back room' - it was so 1980's.

Go NGW!!!!! Boola Boola!!!!!

UP

lol. That last part was too funny. :)

 

[Bubblemang]

blow me.
Up

pass! study released recently shows that oral sex is being linked to cancer. don't tell my girlfriend!
http://www.designerbiomimeticvector.com/2011/03/the-connection-between-oral-sex-and-cancer/

All I need is a marketing program with an effective sales rep perhaps?

:evilgrin0040:
:friday:

Your sense of humor is limitless...

Thanks for posting all that great stuff of FPEs. That degree from Whatsamatta U sure is paying off.

 

[Seamaiden]

Well - that's the claim from the EM-1 crowd. I am dubious as usual but I thought it better to give you the original 'approved' EM-1 process.

I would like to state upfront that while I use the EM-1 (type) products, some of their claims are beyond the pale. One distributor in either Australia or New Zealand promotes their version of sea salt that MUST be used for the AEM process to achieve optimum results - okay. So where does this magical sea salt come from?

They claim that the sea water is collected at depths >500 meters and ONLY during the full moon from the Sea of Taiwan.

Blow me.

UP

No! :giggle People will buy into anything, I swear.

 

[Udyana Peace]

No! :giggle People will buy into anything, I swear.

Here you go though I was incorrect at the depth of harvest which is at 200 meters and not 500 meters. Sorry about that.

Here's the blab from Adrima.com

EM-X Gold Sea Salt

An all natural sea salt treated with EM-X Gold and EM Technology®.

This sea salt is uniquely harvested during a narrow time slot at every full moon. We know how the moon gravitationally creates the ebb and flow of the high and low tides. The full moon also has a gravitational effect on sea water that are denser. At specific intervals, during full moons, sea water is harvested at a depth of 200 meters in the Okinawan sea. Impurities are not found in the collected sea water.

After a natural process that includes using EM-X Gold and EM Technology®, the EM-X Gold Sea Salt is produced.

Salt in general is needed by the body for their minerals. Sea salt in general contain minerals and trace minerals which may have been stripped from the ordinary table salt. Table salt may not only be stripped of minerals and trace minerals, but may also contain additives, including sugar, anti-caking components or potassium iodide. Table salt is mined from some land-based source while sea salt, which is considered Kosher, is extracted from the ocean.

EM-X Gold Sea Salt not only maintains the benefits of sea salt in general, but also has the benefits from the type of sea water it has been harvested from, as well as, the use of EM Technology.​

The cost for 3.5 oz. is $21.99 - LMAO

I thought I got screwed 10 ways to Sunday when I paid $25.00 for 10 lbs. of SEA-90 but then again this product comes from sea water from Baja, Mexico so there is that perhaps?

Wee!

UP

 

[Seamaiden]

I won't say that waters from different seas are not different, that would be absolutely false. For instance, the Red Sea is saltier than the Pacific, which is one of the reasons why you see different levels of biodiversity in a relatively small ecology. But generally I know I can grow all marine organisms in good, clean, filtered Catalina seawater, aka RealOcean (last time I used it!) or what you can get for free out of the spigot down at Scripps in SD. So, if it's true for the organisms that are relying on the quality and parameters of that water, why wouldn't it be true for plants? What about man-made sea salt mixes?

Be careful handling those should you decide to experiment, I think someone here is familiar with reefkeeping but if someone goes out and buys a bag of Instant Ocean or Reef Crystals and burns the shit out of themselves because they're trying to mix it into their nutes by reaching into the bag with wet hands, it is *not* on me. Brand doesn't matter, what it is does, don't say you weren't warned.

 

[Udyana Peace]

Seamaiden

Good points as usual.

Imagine what the 'sea salt' from California's cesspool known as the 'Salton Sea' would do to your garden, eh?

Well - not a cesspool per se. Mark it up to man's weird ideas on water management circa 1920 in the California desert.

UP

 

[Udyana Peace]

Watch what fish products you use, they are not created equal. UP can tell you more about what I mean by this.

I'm guessing that you're talking about the use of Ethoxyquin as an antioxident in fish meals perhaps?

Definitely a factor of consideration. Naturox is used in the better fish meals and therefore is not treated with Ethoxyquin, BHA or BHT.

Bring cash - about $80.00 for 50 lbs.

UP

 

[mrbong73]

I was curious about my choice to leave slaughter house derived products out of my mix so I purchased this product.
It has feather meal and bonemeal as ingredients.
I am planning on doing a side by side comparison to see if there is any difference. Same soil mix just different ammendment schemes.
I know I got ripped on the price but it's in the interest of science, kind of.

 

[mrbong73]

My fish products:
Fish meal
Fish bone meal
Fish hydrolysate

 

[Udyana Peace]

MB

What brand of fish hydrolysate did you go with?

UP