Root aphid virus

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Ythor

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I've read several references to a virus carried by root aphids, but never seen sources cited. I'm currently trying to diagnose a set of plants that exhibit the phantom-deficiencies that make me think of previous root aphid experience, but I can find no signs of actual root aphids.

Does anyone know more?

There is a very simple possible explanation: your plants are virused, and root aphids have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Very little is known of the viruses afflicting the Cannabaceae. Worse, same as anything else concerning viruses, there's a lot of lore and broscience, and not a lot of support to the assertions being made.

Probably one of the worst viruses (in terms of persistence in the environment, as well as its ready availability) is tobacco mosaic virus; it is extremely robust, and affects a broad spectrum of plants. It is conferred through contact with open wounds in plants using tools (and hands) that have been exposed to plant matter that has existing TbMV virus particles present. Denaturing the virus requires very high temperatures, and common cleaning chemicals do not affect it. As a result, a task as simple as pruning or taking cuttings can lead to infection of many plants if the same cutting tool(s) are used.

Why more stringent measures against viruses are not taken when the crop is as valuable as marijuana continues to confuse me. The only thing I can suppose is that cannabis is a sufficiently robust plant that even when viruses are present, the plants continue to do well. Only when they are stressed do they show signs of virus, or succumb to infection. I have seen virus-like symptoms among cannabis plants, but have yet to run the proper tests on them to be certain. It is very easy to confuse symptoms of virus infection with any one of a number of disorders that arise from stress, growing conditions, or even genetics.

As a result, without proper testing, anyone asserting a plant or a clonal line is infected is probably talking out their wazoo. As is with the case with human viruses (HIV, Hep C, etc.), not all carriers are symptomatic, and not all symptoms are definitive for virus infection.
 
C

cctt

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There is a very simple possible explanation: your plants are virused, and root aphids have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Very little is known of the viruses afflicting the Cannabaceae. Worse, same as anything else concerning viruses, there's a lot of lore and broscience, and not a lot of support to the assertions being made.
That's very possible. Or root aphids once had something to do with it and are now out of the picture but it's too late.
Broscience is a great word. There's definitely a lot of that going on, and I wish it were easier to be more proper about the scientific process.
Probably one of the worst viruses (in terms of persistence in the environment, as well as its ready availability) is tobacco mosaic virus; it is extremely robust, and affects a broad spectrum of plants. It is conferred through contact with open wounds in plants using tools (and hands) that have been exposed to plant matter that has existing TbMV virus particles present. Denaturing the virus requires very high temperatures, and common cleaning chemicals do not affect it. As a result, a task as simple as pruning or taking cuttings can lead to infection of many plants if the same cutting tool(s) are used.
I've tried to become more aware of this possibility and using Physan 20 on cutting tools whenever possible, but mistakes are sometimes made. Fungus gnats are also very difficult to completely eradicate. They may turn one carrier mother into many. Is it possible to kill a virus within living plant tissue? My current understanding is it is not.
Why more stringent measures against viruses are not taken when the crop is as valuable as marijuana continues to confuse me. The only thing I can suppose is that cannabis is a sufficiently robust plant that even when viruses are present, the plants continue to do well. Only when they are stressed do they show signs of virus, or succumb to infection. I have seen virus-like symptoms among cannabis plants, but have yet to run the proper tests on them to be certain. It is very easy to confuse symptoms of virus infection with any one of a number of disorders that arise from stress, growing conditions, or even genetics.
Great point. I could go through the issues I've seen and explain much of it as a virus present that shows symptoms only as a result of stress. Stress can cause all kinds of things, but sometimes plants can be incredibly resilient and sometimes can fall into a downward spiral of ill health.
As a result, without proper testing, anyone asserting a plant or a clonal line is infected is probably talking out their wazoo. As is with the case with human viruses (HIV, Hep C, etc.), not all carriers are symptomatic, and not all symptoms are definitive for virus infection.
Indeed, I'd love to draw conclusions, but that would be more broscience. Can anyone recommend a lab doing testing for a wide array of possible viral infection of plant tissue? It would be great to have some real data backing up these guesses.

Thanks for a great post, Ythor.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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I've read several references to a virus carried by root aphids, but never seen sources cited. I'm currently trying to diagnose a set of plants that exhibit the phantom-deficiencies that make me think of previous root aphid experience, but I can find no signs of actual root aphids.

Does anyone know more?
My personal experience is that an RA infestation will make the plants more susceptible to pretty much anything--pest or pathogen. However, I'm fairly certain that it was, what was her name? It's been a while, she said she and chemchris (? do I have it right?) figured out that a barley virus of some sort had been vectored into their rooms via RAs. I would search Google Scholar for root aphid vector virus.

If you're certain you have root aphids, that will change the picture of anything else subsequent to infestation, prior to control or eradication.
 
C

cctt

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IMHO< Better safe than sorry. order up a test kit and test your plants to be sure they did not get infected with a virus. I got my kit here: http://www.agdia.com/

Tons of broscience "experts" all around...ROFL
Thanks for the link. I see they have 181 products available for sale to test plants. Which test kit/s did you find useful for this application? Ever tried sending a sample in for lab analysis?
 
dankworth

dankworth

1,519
163
No problem brotha, it will take about 10 weeks till I have an answer but I need to grab some and I'll treat a test plant with it, and flip it in about 7 days.
Thanks a lot, treebark. It is greatly appreciated.
 
Y

Ythor

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That's very possible. Or root aphids once had something to do with it and are now out of the picture but it's too late.

Another possibility, yes.

I've tried to become more aware of this possibility and using Physan 20 on cutting tools whenever possible, but mistakes are sometimes made. Fungus gnats are also very difficult to completely eradicate. They may turn one carrier mother into many. Is it possible to kill a virus within living plant tissue? My current understanding is it is not.

There's one big problem with Physan 20 (also sold as Consan 20, and other names): it is not virucidal. More precisely, it has never proven to kill viruses that afflict plants; there was one paper from the 1950s, published casually, concerning the use of quaternary ammonium compounds in the control of... bean yellow mosaic virus in cucumbers, I think it was. Quats are very good at attacking enveloped viruses (which includes most animal viruses), but tobacco mosaic virus is non-enveloped. Anyway- that paper was never followed up with a peer-reviewed journal. The evidence that quats work on plant viruses (most specifically, tobamoviruses like TbMV) is zero, to the best of my knowledge.

Now, these products are great detergents, and they will reduce the concentration of virus particles, same as any sort of washing or decontamination. But blades are excellent vectors for transmission of viruses. The primary chemical disinfectant used for years was trisodium phosphate (TSP), which has largely been replaced by "fake" TSP at the hardware store. Normally a saturated solution of TSP + soaking for a few minutes (scrub with a toothbrush to remove any sap) was considered enough to reduce transmission of viruses to a very low level. Heat was considered better; a propane torch works nicely, but it also removes the temper from the blade- so cheap blades were used: razor blades. But razor blades have an aluminum backing; get it too hot, and the aluminum will drip, usually on your feet. Not a good idea. Plus, for $7, you could buy a box of 100 single-edge razor blades; it hardly seemed a wise move to re-use them when they were so inexpensive. Put used blades into a coffee can, and (when full) add plaster of Paris (so nobody gets hurt) and chuck in the trash.

As noted, once virused, plants cannot be un-virused- not without some tricky lab techniques involving tissue culture, meristem work, and anti-viral compounds coupled with temperature treatments. (Temperature won't do a darned thing for TbMV as it is too damned stable, even at temperatures well over that to kill the live plant material, but some viruses denature at temperatures higher than 40C and can be eradicated with some tricks in tissue culture.) They may not even make good parent plants, as pollen and seeds are known to carry some types of virus in some crops. I doubt anything is known of this as it relates to cannabis.

Great point. I could go through the issues I've seen and explain much of it as a virus present that shows symptoms only as a result of stress. Stress can cause all kinds of things, but sometimes plants can be incredibly resilient and sometimes can fall into a downward spiral of ill health.

Indeed, I'd love to draw conclusions, but that would be more broscience. Can anyone recommend a lab doing testing for a wide array of possible viral infection of plant tissue? It would be great to have some real data backing up these guesses.

If you know what you're looking for, the Agdia strips are excellent. However, they will only search for the viruses you are looking for. Although we know some viruses probably (or certainly) infect cannabis, there may be others out there that are more cryptic, or are entirely asymptomatic. Plus, the test strips are pricey, particularly if one looks for multiple viruses- and as the page I link to above notes (from the Hartowicz et al. (1971) paper) there could be over a dozen viruses affecting cannabis.

Plant Viruses Online suggests the Cannabidaceae has demonstrated susceptibility to a handful of viruses; however, these are all in hops. Perhaps understandably, not many plant virus papers have been published on cannabis itself. Moreover, perhaps cannabis shares little with Humulus in terms of viruses.

This page suggests there are a handful of viruses that afflict hemp, and notes that of 22 viruses found in other plants, "over half" were able to infect hemp. There's hemp streak virus (HSV), hemp mosaic virus (HMV), alfalfa mosaic virus, cucumber mosaic virus, and arabis mosaic virus. Aphids, whiteflies, and thrips are known vectors for at least some of these diseases.

There's a much older, less specific technique, that involves the use of index plants. This is the technique that I employ, but inasmuch as transfer of the material across state lines is illegal, my services remain local.

I would caution growers of the following:
  • Use of tobacco concurrent with culture of cannabis.
  • Growers who cannot answer "how do you know?" when they present a plant that they inform you a plant is clearly virused.
  • Any measure other than new blades used to make cuts between different plants.
  • "Communal" culture in which the plant parts are immersed or in contact with liquids that bathe multiple plants from different sources (i.e., not all clones taken from the same parent plant).
  • Vectors such as whitefly, etc. in collections of plants that are from different sources.
  • Reuse of pots. Clay pots can be baked at some insane temperature, while plastic pots need to be discarded if the occupant proves to be virused. Without knowing whether the previous plant was virused, it is best to wash/bleach/TSP pots prior to re-use. Similarly, potting medium may remain contaminated; this is particularly true with TbMV, which may remain infective for years, perhaps decades.
Someday perhaps we'll have indexed clones made available. That would be nice, and will almost certainly be a necessity from a pharmaceutical standpoint. Similarly, virus-resistant cultivars could be developed; however, as viruses seem to be more of a nuisance with cannabis, this is way down towards the bottom of the list for breeders, I'm certain.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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Wow, so much in that post, Ythor, I almost forgot to ask you about isopropyl alcohol. My surgeon recommended it as the best disinfectant/sterilizer (to use in the home) post-surgery, for all hard, non-porous surfaces. He felt it was far superior to bleach, even with its abysmal effective period. I haven't even looked into it as an alternative to other compounds, such as quats, outside of my post-surgery issues.
 
Y

Ythor

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8
Wow, so much in that post, Ythor, I almost forgot to ask you about isopropyl alcohol. My surgeon recommended it as the best disinfectant/sterilizer (to use in the home) post-surgery, for all hard, non-porous surfaces. He felt it was far superior to bleach, even with its abysmal effective period. I haven't even looked into it as an alternative to other compounds, such as quats, outside of my post-surgery issues.

Alcohols work well on enveloped viruses- again, the sort of thing that afflict animals. However, TbMV is resistant to alcohol.

"Biejernik confirmed that extracts from infected tobacco plants infected others, even after filtration, treatment with alcohol or formalin or time delays of up to 3 months." (Presumably that 3-month delay means allowing extracts to dry for 3 months prior to introducing them to a wounded plant. Rabies virus, for example, is extremely susceptible to desiccation and denatures almost immediately upon drying.)

I would suggest that washing a cutting tool with alcohol probably cleans the surface and removes many virus particles, reducing the potential infectivity. However, TbMV remains infective at a dilution of 1 x 10^6 (1 in 1 million) which- for a plant virus- is extremely high. TbMV is a very nasty virus with which to contend. It is known to be infectious from herbarium specimens preserved for decades. It is known to survive on clothing (found in tobacco warehouses) for years. It will persist in the soil for years. It's a true bastard, and it's everywhere thanks to tobacco consumption. (A story was related to me not too many years ago in which a graduate student in plant pathology informed me that the annually-performed experiment in which lab plants were infected with smoking tobacco did not work that particular year. Perhaps that particular batch of cigarettes came from TbMV-resistant cutivars? How common this is these days is not known.)

Once again, strong trisodium phosphate solution remains the only wash treatment that is known to denature TbMV at a level sufficiently high to merit making research scientists happy people. Interestingly, there is some support in the literature for using milk (!), both on hands and on cutting tools. Mumble-mumble, something about antibodies, mumble mumble. However, it has been suggested that while this works for annuals (such as tobacco), it is not useful for perennials as the antibodies will eventually detach, and the virus continues to run rogue once again- years later. For cannabis, this may be important as plants are treated as essentially immortal once they are turned into perpetual clones via cuttings.

So, yes- your surgeon is quite correct from a standpoint of human health. However, tobamoviruses are not known to afflict humans, and this does not carry over well into the realm of plant pathology. Once again, it is far better than nothing: you will reduce the number of virus particles on a cutting tool, which ultimately may reduce the chances of virus spread.

I would still contend that a box of single-use razor blades is still cheaper, and all but assures the spread of viruses will not occur from cutting tools. As the size of cultivation facilities continue to grow, and communal plant cultivation becomes more common in certain markets, this aspect of horticulture should be followed with greater care. It is a shame to lose valuable plants to viruses, particularly older cultivars that (eventually) may no longer be available as un-virused plants.

The sooner that cannabis growers realize there may be a much larger problem with viruses lurking under the surface, the sooner growers can act in order to arrest the spread and contain the potential issues with latent virus infection.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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It can resist formalin???

We have many issues with those who endeavor to cultivate cannabis. Their casual use of extremely toxic or otherwise strongly effective compounds is but one issue. Their blatant disregard to causing resistance in species or groups of species is yet another, and quite underappreciated at this point in time, in my opinion. Passing on myth and legend as though it were fact, but is instead merely gospel, is yet another.

TSP. I spent so much time washing walls with that stuff when I was a kid. Pretty much every time my mother wanted new wallpaper up. I kind of like the smell. I need to know this stuff because I'm not going to use razor blades to harvest my vegetables, or prune, and I do cross-use a lot of equipment and tools. For making cuttings, I see it working fine, but I can see me cutting the hell out of myself if I try to use blades to accomplish the other cutting tasks.
 
Y

Ythor

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It can resist formalin???

At risk of spreading rumors, there are some who suggest it can survive autoclaving. That shouldn't be possible. But viruses aren't really "alive," and the structure of TbMV is so... sound that it can reform from its individual parts, like some sort of weird Terminator virus. From that, there are some who claim it can resist thermal denaturation, at least up until some relatively insane temperature.

Once again, heating the cutting tool up will reduce infectivity, even if it doesn't eliminate the possibility entirely. So- it's still better than nothing.

We have many issues with those who endeavor to cultivate cannabis. Their casual use of extremely toxic or otherwise strongly effective compounds is but one issue. Their blatant disregard to causing resistance in species or groups of species is yet another, and quite underappreciated at this point in time, in my opinion. Passing on myth and legend as though it were fact, but is instead merely gospel, is yet another.

Holy heck. Using stuff like naptha for making hash oil. I have people tell me all the time that all the naptha evaporates, and that there's no trace left after it's made; I ask them how they know this- has it ever been tested? I then offer to test it on GC/FID, and nobody has ever offered me up a sample. Butane- same deal. These are not food-grade solvents. And in many cases, these preparations are for consumption by sick people. Worst case, you are assuming these solvents aren't contaminated. Best case, you're just concentrating the compounds that don't volatilize- stuff that was never meant for consumption.
 
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cctt

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There are many distributors of solvents like butane, and it's easy enough to take a can and evaporate it alone to see how much it leaves behind. Unfortunately I don't know many who actually try this before going ahead with their extraction. Why not, I've no idea. Casual use of toxic compounds, indeed. If I knew someone with access to chromatography equipment you can bet I'd take them up on that all the time. Eventually I'd become a real nuisance :)
 
Y

Ythor

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so have you analyzed any high-grade solvent-extract samples? if so can you publish the data?

Not that I could release; someone else owns the data.

There are many distributors of solvents like butane, and it's easy enough to take a can and evaporate it alone to see how much it leaves behind.

This does not take into account any solvent that may have a greater affinity for the product- the hash oil- than for escaping into the atmosphere.

I'm certain there's very little residue from evaporated butane; however, do we really know what's in there? It's not food-grade. As with naptha, nobody at any point in production is thinking to themselves, "Golly, someone might eat products produced with this. Maybe I shouldn't dump in XYZ" or "maybe I should do a better purge on the pipes so there's no benzene in the finished product." I normally don't cite Wikipedia, but:

Forms of naphtha may be carcinogenic, and frequently products sold as naphtha contain some impurities which may also have harmful properties of their own.[7][8] Like many hydrocarbon products, they are products of a refining process in which a complex soup of chemicals is broken into another range of chemicals, which are then graded and isolated mainly by their specific gravity and volatility. There is, therefore, a range of distinct chemicals included in each product. This makes rigorous comparisons and identification of specific carcinogens difficult, especially in our modern environment where people are daily exposed to many such products, and is further complicated by exposure to a significant range of other known and potential carcinogens.​

And yet people that eschew conventional medicine for the management of disease in favor of hash oil and other preparations ignore how there may just be some really, really bad crap in these solvents, and continue to use them for medical purposes.

Worse, these products don't always come from the same source; suppliers change, formulations change, the market prices change so providers and their products change. Batch-to-batch analyses would have to be performed.

It is worth remembering that sometimes it's the trace compounds that are the worst- BPA in polycarbonate water bottles, active as an endocrine disruptor at the part per billion levels; dioxins in incineration waste, with limits in the part per trillion range, that sort of thing.

I suppose I'm just missing the part where naptha produces advantages over food-grade ethanol, other than in price.
 
straincreation

straincreation

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Well bro if you got a virus ur fucked ... I'm against all non organic pesticide use some Einstein oil and if the fuckers are being stubborn than I resort to organacide.. I had root aphids a couple harvests back in my top feed system.. It was hydro.. I've never had a problem with them in soul but they are visious little SOB.. And they are diligent and consistent I did a organicide dip actually a soak and it took care of the direct problem around the root ball but they were all in the clay it was shit tossed it and hydro out the window I fucken raged I'm back to soil now and happy.. Moved to a dryer climate now Im having to deal with spider mites
But if u stay on top of um they are weak and u can control them quite easily... I was dealing with pm by the coast and now that's gone it's only one of the strains that is weak and then it spreads everywhere... I always say u check it twice and everything stays nice..
 
C

cctt

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This does not take into account any solvent that may have a greater affinity for the product- the hash oil- than for escaping into the atmosphere.
That's a very good point. I've been thinking the best setup would involve a solvent recovery system, and in that case after a few runs whatever is going to be left behind will have been. But it would definitely be nice to use food-grade solvent.
 
C

cctt

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Well bro if you got a virus ur fucked ...
But if u stay on top of um they are weak and u can control them quite easily...
Yes, unfortunately. It's very difficult to tell though - the symptoms look to me like what I think of as a root aphid problem, but for all my searching have not found evidence of a single root aphid. Leading me to think it's more complex than that. I did an imidacloprid test on one plant and it has not noticeably improved, so there's one more reason to think there are (or are no longer) living root aphids continuing to cause these issues.
 
RobotChicken

RobotChicken

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I do what I have to, to feed my family. I support many people and many people depend on me, so I can't mess around without pesticides.

If I didn't have to worry about money, then I would certainly try to attain a growing environment where successful organics could be realistic. But until then, I would recommend to all growers to use pesticides regularly. Again, that's only if you need to earn profits. If you're rich, then you can afford to buy the time to learn how to create a well balanced environment where pesticides are not necessary.

I would say if you have to make money please don't do it at the expense of people's health.

Probably time to do something else if you can not grow without pesticides...Unless I guess your growing for "CUSTOMERS" who already smoke meth.

pesticides only compromise peoples' immune systems!

Most of the people your growing for if they are true patients have compromised immune systems already and these meds will make them worse. Making money at the expense of others health, fuck it, right....!!! gotta do what ya gotta do...On the real...I can get meth at a really cheap rate and the market is WIDE OPEN!!! Let's get crackin....Gotta make that paper.


Treebark- I am really glad you had those plants tested for pesticides...
 

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