click80
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Thanks...Yeah when I am taking my cuts I def try to plan it so I can more than one node in the rooter.
Thanks...Yeah when I am taking my cuts I def try to plan it so I can more than one node in the rooter.
click80
- 747
- 63
I have once again run into a problem in transitioning to the flood tables and would like to know how others do it.
These clones were rooted great, I put them into 3" RW cubes and watered with clonex, GreatWhite, Superthrive, and a 450 ppm nute solution...ph'd to 5.6
They popped out the bottom of the RW in just two days and were doing great but then they stopped. I suppose they are air pruning so I put them in some plastic trays with hydroton in the bottom but they definitely slowed down and I don't know why. They still look great and are healthy but I am not popping roots out the bottom like I did last time when I put them in Perlite. The last grow when I put them in the perlite to veg for a few days under an 8 tube t5 the roots kept growing and I have a thick bush of them covering the entire bottom of the cube and they were about 2 inches long.
I didnt want to use the perlite this time cause i didn't know if i could get it off of the roots. They are/have gone into hydroton.
Very frustrating....
These clones were rooted great, I put them into 3" RW cubes and watered with clonex, GreatWhite, Superthrive, and a 450 ppm nute solution...ph'd to 5.6
They popped out the bottom of the RW in just two days and were doing great but then they stopped. I suppose they are air pruning so I put them in some plastic trays with hydroton in the bottom but they definitely slowed down and I don't know why. They still look great and are healthy but I am not popping roots out the bottom like I did last time when I put them in Perlite. The last grow when I put them in the perlite to veg for a few days under an 8 tube t5 the roots kept growing and I have a thick bush of them covering the entire bottom of the cube and they were about 2 inches long.
I didnt want to use the perlite this time cause i didn't know if i could get it off of the roots. They are/have gone into hydroton.
Very frustrating....
Dr.Pepper
- 233
- 43
a great tutorial DS!
thnx for sharing your method. :yes
thnx for sharing your method. :yes
El Cerebro
- 1,197
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Ok the next batch of clones just made me a liar. 100% coco in small party cups on a heat mat, watered with ~200ppm clonex / maxicrop seaweed, ~5.8ph. With IBA dip, at 6-7 days I have roots on the bottoms, all except one which I sacrificed and the roots were halfway down the cup. Worth saying this was with a strain that always clones well, but the time was reduced easily by half compared to same amount of roots without it. I will never clone without IBA again..
desertsquirrel
- 1,177
- 83
nice
click80
- 747
- 63
The following is from Wiki...I have always thought that because of osmosis the water would tend to migrate into the clone ensuring optimum turgidity.
The following is from Wiki. Doesn't using RO water actually work better than solutions with any TDS? IN other words doesn't using RO water help turgidity and ensure the cut is hydrated to it's full potential?
Osmosis is the movement of solvent molecules through a selectively permeable membrane into a region of higher solute concentration, aiming to equalize the solute concentrations on the two sides.[1][2][3] It may also be used to describe a physical process in which any solvent moves, without input of energy,[4] across a semipermeable membrane (permeable to the solvent, but not the solute) separating two solutions of different concentrations.[5] Although osmosis does not require input of energy, it does use kinetic energy [6] and can be made to do work.[7]
One frame of a computer simulation of osmosis
Net movement of solvent is from the less concentrated (hypotonic) to the more concentrated (hypertonic) solution, which tends to reduce the difference in concentrations. This effect can be countered by increasing the pressure of the hypertonic solution, with respect to the hypotonic. The osmotic pressure is defined to be the pressurerequired to maintain an equilibrium, with no net movement of solvent. Osmotic pressure is a colligative property, meaning that the osmotic pressure depends on the molar concentration of the solute but not on its identity.
Osmosis is essential in biological systems, as biological membranes are semipermeable. In general, these membranes are impermeable to large and polar molecules, such as ions, proteins, and polysaccharides, while being permeable to non-polar and/or hydrophobic molecules like lipids as well as to small molecules like oxygen, carbon dioxide, nitrogen, nitric oxide, etc. Permeability depends on solubility, charge, or chemistry, as well as solute size. Water molecules travel through the plasma membrane, tonoplast membrane (vacuole) or protoplast by diffusing across the phospholipid bilayer via aquaporins (small transmembrane proteins similar to those in facilitated diffusion and in creating ion channels). Osmosis provides the primary means by which water is transported into and out of cells. The turgor pressure of a cell is largely maintained by osmosis, across the cell membrane, between the cell interior and its relatively hypotonic environment.[8]
The following is from Wiki. Doesn't using RO water actually work better than solutions with any TDS? IN other words doesn't using RO water help turgidity and ensure the cut is hydrated to it's full potential?
Osmosis is the movement of solvent molecules through a selectively permeable membrane into a region of higher solute concentration, aiming to equalize the solute concentrations on the two sides.[1][2][3] It may also be used to describe a physical process in which any solvent moves, without input of energy,[4] across a semipermeable membrane (permeable to the solvent, but not the solute) separating two solutions of different concentrations.[5] Although osmosis does not require input of energy, it does use kinetic energy [6] and can be made to do work.[7]
Net movement of solvent is from the less concentrated (hypotonic) to the more concentrated (hypertonic) solution, which tends to reduce the difference in concentrations. This effect can be countered by increasing the pressure of the hypertonic solution, with respect to the hypotonic. The osmotic pressure is defined to be the pressurerequired to maintain an equilibrium, with no net movement of solvent. Osmotic pressure is a colligative property, meaning that the osmotic pressure depends on the molar concentration of the solute but not on its identity.
Osmosis is essential in biological systems, as biological membranes are semipermeable. In general, these membranes are impermeable to large and polar molecules, such as ions, proteins, and polysaccharides, while being permeable to non-polar and/or hydrophobic molecules like lipids as well as to small molecules like oxygen, carbon dioxide, nitrogen, nitric oxide, etc. Permeability depends on solubility, charge, or chemistry, as well as solute size. Water molecules travel through the plasma membrane, tonoplast membrane (vacuole) or protoplast by diffusing across the phospholipid bilayer via aquaporins (small transmembrane proteins similar to those in facilitated diffusion and in creating ion channels). Osmosis provides the primary means by which water is transported into and out of cells. The turgor pressure of a cell is largely maintained by osmosis, across the cell membrane, between the cell interior and its relatively hypotonic environment.[8]
desertsquirrel
- 1,177
- 83
The following is from Wiki...I have always thought that because of osmosis the water would tend to migrate into the clone ensuring optimum turgidity.
The following is from Wiki. Doesn't using RO water actually work better than solutions with any TDS? IN other words doesn't using RO water help turgidity and ensure the cut is hydrated to it's full potential?
Osmosis is the movement of solvent molecules through a selectively permeable membrane into a region of higher solute concentration, aiming to equalize the solute concentrations on the two sides.[1][2][3] It may also be used to describe a physical process in which any solvent moves, without input of energy,[4] across a semipermeable membrane (permeable to the solvent, but not the solute) separating two solutions of different concentrations.[5] Although osmosis does not require input of energy, it does use kinetic energy [6] and can be made to do work.[7]
One frame of a computer simulation of osmosis
Net movement of solvent is from the less concentrated (hypotonic) to the more concentrated (hypertonic) solution, which tends to reduce the difference in concentrations. This effect can be countered by increasing the pressure of the hypertonic solution, with respect to the hypotonic. The osmotic pressure is defined to be the pressurerequired to maintain an equilibrium, with no net movement of solvent. Osmotic pressure is a colligative property, meaning that the osmotic pressure depends on the molar concentration of the solute but not on its identity.
Osmosis is essential in biological systems, as biological membranes are semipermeable. In general, these membranes are impermeable to large and polar molecules, such as ions, proteins, and polysaccharides, while being permeable to non-polar and/or hydrophobic molecules like lipids as well as to small molecules like oxygen, carbon dioxide, nitrogen, nitric oxide, etc. Permeability depends on solubility, charge, or chemistry, as well as solute size. Water molecules travel through the plasma membrane, tonoplast membrane (vacuole) or protoplast by diffusing across the phospholipid bilayer via aquaporins (small transmembrane proteins similar to those in facilitated diffusion and in creating ion channels). Osmosis provides the primary means by which water is transported into and out of cells. The turgor pressure of a cell is largely maintained by osmosis, across the cell membrane, between the cell interior and its relatively hypotonic environment.[8]
Without a root zone present osmosis does not take place. however i agree that nutrients are unhelpful.
sweet post though.
click80
- 747
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Thank you.
Yeah, I agree at this point about nutes and clones. Bennies seem to help once roots popped on my last round...
But back to the original thought...
Okay, then why does the clone wilt when the medium (rooter/whatever) dries out? Same thought comes to me about the wilting that occurs when the dome is removed too soon on new clones, some never recover. In my experiments, I have removed the dome at different times. It seems that after three or four days I have removed dome and after a few hours they recover, but don't root as well as if I just leave the dome on the whole time. Their survival isn't really germane to this, but the wilting is. Turgidity is changing and can be manipulated. So that means some type of water movement is occurring? Or, is the clone stuck with whatever amount of water is in it when cut and if it transpires too much it dies? If it is then letting clones set overnight in water should be useless, but I know it is not, that definitely helps.
The same thought has bugged me since when I got my EZ Cloner, or rather the contradiction, since I would take clones with the EZ with no dome. Humidity was about 75% as I remember, not much more, but they did not wilt. So why does the clone retain more turgid (turgidier?haha) in an aerocloner than if you cut a clone and stuck it in a RRooter with no dome given similar humidity? There has to be some water transport occurring, right? Seems like vapor pressure in the air and some type of pressure on the stem (or the cut) is keeping different degrees of turgidity on the clone and that the environment the stem is in makes a difference on how much wilting occurs...
I know this is not a big deal. I can grow clones and thats all that matters. I am just trying to understand all of the different plant processes and this confuses me. Shit I am at the point where it all confuses me.
Nutrients are driving me nuts. I try to be patient but to answer all my questions I would need twenty grows going at a time.
click80
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I was doing a search to find out how fast IBA breaks down in medium and came across this. Haven't had time to go further but looks kind of interesting. Google Scholar rocks.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...nticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...nticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=
K
kushtrees
- 591
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I have a plant that I took from a slightly unhealthy mother due to neglect and just not enough time to deal with her. It rooted fine but I have not been able to get it healthy for almost 2 months now, it doesnt like the nutes I used to give to the strain with great results, it doesnt like any of the new nutes I changed it up to. how true do you think that statement is DS, cuz if its 100% true then how is there any chance of me getting the plant healthy enough to take new, healthier cuts from.
I never thought that just because in clone it wasnt the healthiest of plants that it wouldnt ever be able to fully recover. thanks for this awesome thread DS
click80
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I have been thinking about this for a couple hours. I know that environment can/will affect phenotype expression so if this is true then you would simply be replicating the same expression if you clone it while it is not healthy. BUT...I have had a Deathstar going for almost three years now...I have started mothers from mothers probably at least five or six times. The last time I did this the mom was not exactly in bad health but was not all that great. I did clone it and the clones did good, I kept two to turn into moms and they are doing great. Part of that is me knowing a lot more about taking care of moms, proper pruning and cloning, and knowing how to use bennies, teas, and light nutes. Not exactly an answer, but maybe you should not give up hope yet.
organicness
- 194
- 28
I will say I just started adding 1tsp per 7 gallons in my cloner and I'm getting roots that are super far up the stem now instead of just off the bottom tip. And, fast! Thanks!
desertsquirrel
- 1,177
- 83
No that statement does NOT mean that even the most ragged and ruff looking clone or mom cannot be properly managed back into a perfect plant.
It does mean that in commercial applications your simply going to take a loss, if this is your approach.
snoopytime
- 188
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If you wanna make your own IBA solution the strength of CLONEX GEL, which says '3 grams IBA per liter' on the bottle, buy the 25 gram bottle of this here for $74 -
Be sure to get the IBA-K , since its a water soluble salt, otherwise the plain IBA wont go into solution (dissolve)
Then take half the bottle of pure IBA powder (a shade over 12 grams) and fold it into a one gallon bottle of pure RO water. Shake it lol. This is now identical stregnth to CLONEX GEL.
Now if you wanna rock the DS trick of adding it to your hydro solution instead of RE etc, a second dilution is necessary to make it a simple '1ml per gallon' additive . .
To make a quart of '1ml per gallon' (DIY roots excel minus the pinch of beneficials) - add 50ml of your "DIY CLONEX" gallon from above to 950ml of RO water in your empty quart(or liter) nute bottle.
To make a gallon of '1ml per gallon' (DIY roots excel minus the pinch of beneficials) - add 200ml of your "DIY CLONEX" gallon from above to an empty gallon nute bottle then top it off with almost a gallon of RO -
tada! you now know how to make 160+ litres of sterile RE for how much? is it 160 x $180 = $28,800?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?
Fukk that! how about $74! sounds better . . with all that leftover money not buying H&G another weekend in the Palms rockstar suite lolol you can get yourself a new car instead!
Props to DS - a true scientist!
PS - when you order the IBA powder you get an email that says you need to provide a 'science project' description so they can tell what you need the powder for. Just lookup the latin name for some plant and say you are testing rooting behavior at various dilutions of IBA.
PSS - if $74 is STILL too much because you need super ape-shit amounts, get it here for around $180 a KILO DELIVERED of pure.
http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=iba+potassium
PSSS - This stuff likes it cold and dark, keep the powder in the fridge and the mix in at least a dark cabinet if you can.
Peace out
Be sure to get the IBA-K , since its a water soluble salt, otherwise the plain IBA wont go into solution (dissolve)
Then take half the bottle of pure IBA powder (a shade over 12 grams) and fold it into a one gallon bottle of pure RO water. Shake it lol. This is now identical stregnth to CLONEX GEL.
Now if you wanna rock the DS trick of adding it to your hydro solution instead of RE etc, a second dilution is necessary to make it a simple '1ml per gallon' additive . .
To make a quart of '1ml per gallon' (DIY roots excel minus the pinch of beneficials) - add 50ml of your "DIY CLONEX" gallon from above to 950ml of RO water in your empty quart(or liter) nute bottle.
To make a gallon of '1ml per gallon' (DIY roots excel minus the pinch of beneficials) - add 200ml of your "DIY CLONEX" gallon from above to an empty gallon nute bottle then top it off with almost a gallon of RO -
tada! you now know how to make 160+ litres of sterile RE for how much? is it 160 x $180 = $28,800?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?
Fukk that! how about $74! sounds better . . with all that leftover money not buying H&G another weekend in the Palms rockstar suite lolol you can get yourself a new car instead!
Props to DS - a true scientist!
PS - when you order the IBA powder you get an email that says you need to provide a 'science project' description so they can tell what you need the powder for. Just lookup the latin name for some plant and say you are testing rooting behavior at various dilutions of IBA.
PSS - if $74 is STILL too much because you need super ape-shit amounts, get it here for around $180 a KILO DELIVERED of pure.
http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=iba+potassium
PSSS - This stuff likes it cold and dark, keep the powder in the fridge and the mix in at least a dark cabinet if you can.
Peace out
El Cerebro
- 1,197
- 113
^thx for the phytotech link, other interesting stuff there too. seems like iba is much cheaper here though: http://www.plantsandstuff.com/Products.html, like half the price.
girlwondergrows
- 60
- 8
Great thread, thank you!
I have a question: Does anyone know why the CLONEX gel swells the stem so much? I currently use dip and grow and a ezcloner 120 with ro water ph'd to 6.0 and have really high success rates (the key is bleaching the fucking thing every time) but I don't get that huge thick stem that I see in other people's clones.
I have a question: Does anyone know why the CLONEX gel swells the stem so much? I currently use dip and grow and a ezcloner 120 with ro water ph'd to 6.0 and have really high success rates (the key is bleaching the fucking thing every time) but I don't get that huge thick stem that I see in other people's clones.
click80
- 747
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What is the dip n gro ppm? IBA at 3000ppm is the reason I have always assumed.
click80
- 747
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Jesus. 10k ppm? I know that I have read in more than one place that higher solutions of IBA are detrimental to adventitious root formation.
I have also read that NAA is more for secondary root formation. I know clonex does the best for me in rapid rooters and I have used just about every freaking product out there. Clonex is idiot proof.
I have also read that NAA is more for secondary root formation. I know clonex does the best for me in rapid rooters and I have used just about every freaking product out there. Clonex is idiot proof.
girlwondergrows
- 60
- 8
The dip-n-grow is 10K ppm (1%) IBA and 5k PPM (0.5%) NAA but you dilute it. I use the 1 to 15 dilution which gives about 700ppm IBA and 350ppm NAA.
click80
- 747
- 63
I know that I just reached a point that I didn't see the point in trying to tweak out roots from a cut. 7 days is fine for me. On a production basis, then I am sure factoring in days matters over the course of a year. Now, I just soak that rooters in a bennie solution without myco's, use clonex gel and keep moist. I keep a hood with vents and open the vents one quarter every other day, by the time they are fully opened I have roots and then I start using full bennies with myco's. I probably over do the myco but I want to ensure inoculation. Once I get a microscope maybe I can adjust. Seems to be working so far. I do know that once the get rooted it is really smart, imo, to keep the momentum up. Roots, once they get going, are amazing biological wonders.
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