SCROG OUT OF CONTROL ... What did I do wrong... and how do I fix it?

[Eledin]

"I saw through equivalent the crap.. read adv. straight to wattage usage"
Its not that I thought the bulbs were consuming more than 75W, its that they tell you the equivalent in performance and they lie, when I started with LEDs I thought, like they said, that 150W were gonna perform like 1000W or so in terms of efficiency compared to HPS based on what they tell you but its not the case at all. When I bought the x2 130W panels that I have now I already knew. The coating is something usual but for that price having nano coating is great tbh. What I dont like about yours is that they dont tell you the energy efficiency, the brand of the leds and the PPFD chart whichs shows how many umols/s you get, that info is a must for me, but judging by the price you have more or less the same that I have, just a different shape. For the price we paid theyre great dont get me wrong, its just nothing impressive and it wont give you the massive buds you see in the most popular scrog pictures on google but if you grow for yourself like me is more than enough. I bought mine when they were priced at 60 euros, I know every month they put them on sale:

Amazon.es

In mine you get more information, the only thing they dont say is the brand of the LED diodes and thats because they are not samsung diodes, which are the best diodes in the market right now. Theyre probably from a chinese brand.
You probably wonder why some 100-200W panels are so expensive compared to yours, thats why, everything mentioned before.
" but to me the lumen (1st unit) output at 6 inches was close to the maximum cannabis can use.."
6 inches is gonna scorch your plants, I keep mine close cause its only 130W but not that close, they would burn. Check the output at 12" which is the closest you can get them without causing heat issues to the plant with these kind of panels when its not summer. In the PPFD chart of my panel you can see how just 4 inches is a massive difference in light recieved by the plants, in your case its the same, from 6 inches to 12 inches youre gonna lose more than half of what you meassured.
There's way too many strains for me to remember from the top of my head which ones are worth going for in SCROG, but this page can help you, if you see a strain youre interested in but the bank doesnt give you much info check the strain here:

Cannabis Grow Journals - Marijuana Grow Community - GrowDiaries

GrowDiaries is a marijuana grow journal community. Track your growth to improve your cannabis plant’s quality. Perfect place to start your first weed plant.

growdiaries.com

I can also recommend you a couple if you tell me what are you looking for in terms of flavor and effects.

 

[Mytwhyt]

It'll take a while, several grows in fact, to find the most successful type of scrog that fits you best. It was 5 or 6 for myself. I settled on a 36"x24" 2"x4" screen, one plant, one 315 watt cmh. My average yield was 1 oz for each 72sq. inches of screen, in 100 days from sprout.. A pound per plant is what I shoot for now. Here's the result for my first grow with the 315 watt lights. 2015. https://www.thcfarmer.com/threads/deep-water-culture.93398/page-3#post-2082531

 

[SnappyJack]

Mytwhyt ... thanks for the input.. Yes I've got stuff to learn... very impressive grow you got/had their.

Eledin.. lot of info to process their...

I picked this light on a gut feeling.. I liked it's style... maybe it's a company that's trying harder than the rest to put out a respectable Chinese product.. maybe not.. but then again where are the majority of led lights made.. all companies lie.. or bend the truth.. other than that I try not to get to caught up in smoke .. mirrors and flash... simplest thing I understand is what goes in (watts) more or less comes out...with efficiency we can only hope.

Sorry buddy... can't agree with 6" toast thought... at least with this sativa strain

For 10 or so weeks... 1 to 1.5 inches from the bud... I've spent a lot of time in east coast ocean sun... I've seen plants grow in this sun... I know the warmth on the back of my hand.. so positioning the led's this close took little hesitation.. Possibly the majority of plants can't handle this close... this one does.

(reason lights are this high for the scrog is light spread)

Wow that link is like another country to me... I have to admit I'm a bit lost their...not enough pre-info in my head..

Do not know: "what are you looking for in terms of flavor and effects" ... actually: A Pain inhibitor!




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[SnappyJack]

Progress Report

3-9-24

7 days later

3-16-24

Welcome To The Jungle!


​

 

[Eledin]

Mytwhyt ... thanks for the input.. Yes I've got stuff to learn... very impressive grow you got/had their.

Eledin.. lot of info to process their...

I picked this light on a gut feeling.. I liked it's style... maybe it's a company that's trying harder than the rest to put out a respectable Chinese product.. maybe not.. but then again where are the majority of led lights made.. all companies lie.. or bend the truth.. other than that I try not to get to caught up in smoke .. mirrors and flash... simplest thing I understand is what goes in (watts) more or less comes out...with efficiency we can only hope.

Sorry buddy... can't agree with 6" toast thought... at least with this sativa strain

View attachment 2137060​

For 10 or so weeks... 1 to 1.5 inches from the bud... I've spent a lot of time in east coast ocean sun... I've seen plants grow in this sun... I know the warmth on the back of my hand.. so positioning the led's this close took little hesitation.. Possibly the majority of plants can't handle this close... this one does.

(reason lights are this high for the scrog is light spread)

Wow that link is like another country to me... I have to admit I'm a bit lost their...not enough pre-info in my head..

Do not know: "what are you looking for in terms of flavor and effects" ... actually: A Pain inhibitor!




.

With my 60-80 euros 130W panel I would toast them at 6 inches, even if I managed to keep the temperature at the higher canopy at check the UV and intensity of the regular light aswell would burn my tips and bleach my buds. The same would go for any panel used by any professional grower, the fact that you can use it at 1 inch proves to me even further that is not really that energy efficient (thats probably why they dont even give you something as basic as a PPFD chart or energy efficiency rate, which they would totally give you if they had something to brag about). Thats fine, I think the panels we have, you and I, are super good for the price (40 bucks? really, thats almost a gift) but theyre nowhere close to what a professional grower would use (but we grow for ourselves, the only reason I wanna upgrade to a 600W one is to be able to start selling more). Not the first time it would happen to me, burning a bud, sometimes a stem goes out of control and wants to reach the sun and Im not gonna sacrifice all the other branches getting less light because of 1 so yeah, I had my experiences with burned (be it by heat or light intensity) buds, nothing too serious tho unless its affecting all of your top canopy. That plant you showed me has plenty of airflow and lightflow, the buds are not close together, nor the leaves, in a SCROG thats not gonna be the case, the goal is to fill it up all with buds so youre gonna have the top canopy taking 90% or more of the light and also more heat. Do you have a fan to dissipate the heat on the top canopy and create some breeze? Also the initial symptoms of light burn are: slight bleaching on the buds, burned tips and dry crispy edges on top leaves, in case your plants need some more distance from the light thats how you can tell in case you didnt know.
Okay back to the strains, if youre looking for a pain inhibitor you really need to try 1:1 strains (THC-CBD ratio) or 2:1 even for a more strong THC effect. Combining THC and CBD is way more effective for the pain than just THC. You could even plant THC, CBD and CBG, the more major cannabinoids the better because they all bind to different receptors in our neurons that manage anxiety and pain. If Im not making myself clear and there's something you dont understand just let me know what it is. Im a total phreak and I suspect youre gonna be one too hahaha. Im gonna make some digging to see which 2:1 and 1:1 strains are good right now and maybe you can get a CBG one aswell. Ill make a post when its ready.

 

[Nio]

Looks to me you should have topped a lot more. Famous SROG tutorial

 

[Eledin]

Reputable 1:1 THC-CBD Strains:
-Pennywise by Subcool's The Dank seeds or New420guy seeds. Offering as much as 15% THC and 15% CBD by Subcool seeds and 12% THC and 12% CBD by new420guy seeds.
-Royal Highness by Royal Queen Seeds. Offering as much as 14% THC and 14% CBD.
-Danceworld by Royal Queen Seeds. Offering as much as 12% THC and 12% CBD.
-OG Kush CBD by Dinafem or Medical Seeds. Offering as much as 10% THC and 10% CBD by dinafem and 12% THC and 12% CBD by medicalseeds.
-S.A.G.E. CBD by T.H. seeds. As much as 10% THC and 10% CBD
-Painkiller XL by Royal Queen Seeds. Offering as much as 9% THC and 9% CBD.

Reputable X:1 THC-CBD Strains:
-Amnesia Haze by Royal Queen Seeds: As much as 22% THC and medium CBD (we get to a point where Royal Queen Seeds wont give you an exact number but a range because it can vary so much from pheno to pheno, but is allegedly close to 2:1 THC CBD).
-Ice by Royal Queen Seeds: As much as 18% THC and medium CBD (usually that means around 5% for reference)
-Fruit Spirit by Royal Queen Seeds: As much as 18% THC and high CBD (around 10% for reference)
-Blue Power by Vision Seeds: As much as 16% THC and high CBD
-Satin Black Domina by Sensi Seeds: As much as 14% THC and 7% CBD.
-Royal Medic by Royal Queen Seeds: As much as 10% THC and around 5-8% CBD.

Reputable CBG Strains
-CBG Force by Dutch Passion: 10-15% CBG >0,2% THC.
-Eboshi CBG by Medical Seeds. 8-15% CBG >1% THC and CBD.
-CBG Zerodue by Seed Stockers: As much as 9% CBG >0,2% THC.

 

[the rrock]

Reputable 1:1 THC-CBD:
-Pennywise by Subcool's The Dank seeds or New420guy seeds. Offering as much as 15% THC and 15% CBD by Subcool seeds and 12% THC and 12% CBD by new420guy seeds.
-Royal Highness by Royal Queen Seeds. Offering as much as 14% THC and 14% CBD.
-Danceworld by Royal Queen Seeds. Offering as much as 12% THC and 12% CBD.
-OG Kush CBD by Dinafem or Medical Seeds. Offering as much as 10% THC and 10% CBD by dinafem and 12% THC and 12% CBD by medicalseeds.
-S.A.G.E. CBD by T.H. seeds. As much as 10% THC and 10% CBD
-Painkiller XL by Royal Queen Seeds. Offering as much as 9% THC and 9% CBD.

Reputable X:1 THC-CBD Strains:
-Amnesia Haze by Royal Queen Seeds: As much as 22% THC and medium CBD (we get to a point where Royal Queen Seeds wont give you an exact number but a range because it can vary so much from pheno to pheno, but is allegedly close to 2:1 THC CBD).
-Ice by Royal Queen Seeds: As much as 18% THC and medium CBD (usually that means around 5% for reference)
-Fruit Spirit by Royal Queen Seeds: As much as 18% THC and high CBD (around 10% for reference)
-Blue Power by Vision Seeds: As much as 16% THC and high CBD
-Satin Black Domina by Sensi Seeds: As much as 14% THC and 7% CBD.
-Royal Medic by Royal Queen Seeds: As much as 10% THC and around 5-8% CBD.

Reputable CBG Strains
-CBG Force by Dutch Passion: 10-15% CBG >0,2% THC.
-Eboshi CBG by Medical Seeds. 8-15% CBG >1% THC and CBD.
-CBG Zerodue by Seed Stockers: As much as 9% CBG >0,2% THC.

why waste time(grows) with these strains when their are 35%thc strains readily available(sativa or indica) and FYI cbd dont get you high.I grew strains like yours above for years cuz I didnt know any better. for example>twenty20 breeders< ... theyve put the work in and its damn near perfection(descriptionwise)
i grew the black domina back in the early 80s when the Sensi name meant something,was good back then for insomnia

 

[Eledin]

why waste time(grows) with these strains when their are 35%thc strains readily available(sativa or indica) and FYI cbd dont get you high.I grew strains like yours above for years cuz I didnt know any better. for example>twenty20 breeders< ... theyve put the work in and its damn near perfection(descriptionwise)
i grew the black domina back in the early 80s when the Sensi name meant something,was good back then for insomnia

Because he wants it for the pain, and as I stated before different cannabinoids bind to different pain receptors and other nerve-related receptors (THC binds to different receptors than CBD and so on) so the more major cannbinoids such as THC, CBD, CBN or CBG combined the more receptors they attach to and the more it mitigates the pain. He is not looking to get as fucked up as possible, he wants pain relief. 2:1 THC CBD strains are good if you still want the high but also more medicinal properties, and you can always mix in more THC from another strain with similar flavor profiles. Hell, you can even make it 20:1 THC CBD if you want to, just find your mix, you can still get fucked up even if you add CBD, CBN or CBG as long as you keep a high THC level, even tho the high is gonna be different depending on the rates.
EDIT: For a clear example that you can easily try at home if you want, make THC candy. Suggar melts at around 200ºC which ideally is when you will have a convertion of around 20-30% of your THC to CBN. Its gonna get you fucked up but its a totally different high than if you bake a THC cake at 160-180ºC (since 160 is ideal for cakes and its when decarb from THCa to THC happens). You just need to be careful that is not too hot when you add your concentrate to the melted candy or you will ruin all the THC and CBN. Sorry for using ºC Im from Spain ^^'. Part of the trick with the candy is that when youre adding your THC its gonna be initially at 200ºC or higher but only for a few seconds, allowing THC to not decarb completely into CBN. My brother took a piece of the candy when I was sleeping and he thought it was CBD, he couldnt even open his eyes, ofc he took a monster dose, in moderate doses is like a high in which youre more focused, hard to describe.

 

[SnappyJack]

Wow... lot of stuff to unpack

Nio , the rrock.. thanks for stopping by...


Eledin.. lot of information you have posted today.. the" THC, CBD, CBN or CBG .... the variety of seeds.. all.. is going to take me a little time to decipher... even though I've been reading much material on the subjects... what was made clear in one article was the combination of THC and cbd was most effective in pain management.

I have been doing research in cannabis tinctures.. studying the freeze ethanol vacuum evaporation recovery systems.. but let us discuss these type of information (and your strain / seed recommendations)in the messaging service of this forum... prefer at this time to keep my pain issues a bit private.

At this time... this place.. I'm more focused on the technical/growth part of cannabis..

Now back to this thread.... lights seem to be a burning issue on this forum... my parents are refugees from Nazi Germany era .. so naturally I was raised to be frugal.. and to do more with less... part explanation for the cheap lights.

"Do you have a fan to dissipate the heat on the top canopy and create some breeze? "

​

Part of my pre -grow tent purchase studies... the bathroom in my 1st grow was ideal for flower low humidity and steady 65-68F / 20°C. it was the beginning of winter here... I knew the tent would be a different environment ... in the above graph.. the first couple days prior to flower.. was me playing with getting the "environment" in balance... I will be making another thread on that and of course on PPFD / PAR... I Appreciate you watching my back and guidance on these issues.



.

 

[ccoki]

Net 1
Net 2
Veg room has a 2x2 and then I move them to the bloom room in a 3x3. So I net kinda late. Don't expect any uniformity out of me haha I am also terribly dyscalculic (math disability) I struggle to picture and estimate what to expect them to grow into? Idk.... anyway I let them fill to a certain point then try to stake them. I have just seen where even if it's a mess like mine it still is worth it. In fact any unnetted plant kinds feels like wasted potential. . Also in one of those pictures the plant is half chopped and I absolutely needed the support to give that underbrush a couple weeks more I am seeing they like to feel supported.

 

[DeadheadJim]

Net 1
Net 2
Veg room has a 2x2 and then I move them to the bloom room in a 3x3. So I net kinda late. Don't expect any uniformity out of me haha I am also terribly dyscalculic (math disability) I struggle to picture and estimate what to expect them to grow into? Idk.... anyway I let them fill to a certain point then try to stake them. I have just seen where even if it's a mess like mine it still is worth it. In fact any unnetted plant kinds feels like wasted potential. . Also in one of those pictures the plant is half chopped and I absolutely needed the support to give that underbrush a couple weeks more I am seeing they like to feel supported.

Checkout the Northern Scrogger on YouTube. He starts to scrog at veg. When the canopy is full he flips to flower. When they stretch. He adds another net. He's got it down to a science and he explains it. He calls it welcome to scrog school.

 

[SnappyJack]

DeadheadJim... yeah found that on utube last year.. 2 screens.. more labor than I'm looking for at this time.

Still prefer this method:

ccoki.. like Mytwhyt said so eloquently at top of this page : "It'll take a while, several grows in fact, to find the most successful type of scrog that fits you best"

 

[Fromunda506]

If you don’t want the canopy to extend much beyond the screen, you want to flip it when the screen is 2/3 to 3/4 full. You also want to run fewer plants with a flatter canopy. That is what I’m doing in a 3 x 3 currently with 1 Dante’s inferno. It got flipped to 12–12 two weeks ago and is almost done stretching. The whole canopy is about 6” deep and probably won’t get more than 8-10” by the time she’s done.

If you let the canopy totally fill out before you flip them, you need a fair amount of headroom. Gives you a much deeper canopy with the colas nice and separated. I like to use that for plants that stretch out more and have wider internode spacing (like jealousy or a lot of og’s). When I do one like that flat, I always feel like my yield gets hurt by it and I’m not really filling my space out. This is a Topanga Canyon OG that I harvested a couple months ago out of the same space. I let the screen fill out almost completely before I flipped it to 12-12. Some of those colas were nearly 2’ long. Has everything to do with how your space is set up and what varietal you’re growing. Cheers

 

[SnappyJack]

So back to my first scrog.................

I don't have any images of my crushing and bending of stems to achieve a true scrog... but I do have these:

Below image was taken dead center between two pots pointing straight up to the lights

You should be able to notice that the main stems of the plant are not pointing up but parallel to the floor or net... take your pick.. here I have bent / crush and trained the stems to this effect .. all below the netting / scrog net

In the image below you may notice their are 7 or more stems running towards the center of the tent screen.. their are more running on the left an right (from each of the two pots) of the image below.

In the image below I've highlighted (approximately) the location of auxiliary branches.. now instead of being the lesser bud of the leading top bud in a stem.. each becomes a main stem growing up to the light with it's own main top bud ... well that's how I see it.. feel free to correct my interpretation.​

 

[Eledin]

You are doing good considering that it was an improvised SCROG. LST at the start helps a lot to get everything full but honestly I only top and pass branches through the net. As long as youre passing the branches through the net as youre doing and converting secondary buds in top buds youre doing SCROG. Plants look healthy, perhaps a bit crowded but you can do a defoliation at the end of week 3 of flower, just enough to allow some airflow and if any leaf is covering a bud site too. The only thing you can improve right now is that, defoliation and what we talked about pushing nutes slowly and see how the plants react instead of just going with fixed PPM. You have an organic soil like me so it shouldnt be too risky trying to push them a bit to see how much they can eat.
EDIT: Oh yeah as for the light, sorry if I sounded harsh or something, I also have cheap panels. Im just saying theyre cheap for a reason but for what we spent is a bargain, we still get very nice buds.
A close up and a few colas from my last harvest with cheap full spectrum panels (UV and IR included)

 

[SnappyJack]

Fromunda506.. thanks... like your style.. focusing one one plant for 3x3 area.. I thought I was at 2/3 when I flipped but inside a week it went out of control.. a bit... part of my learning curve... wasn't sure but are the 1st buds forming in that grow

 

[SnappyJack]

Eledin... Yes it's getting crowded.. indeed.. having thoughts about that.. started to trim fan leafs already.. sniping in half.. cutting out any leaf that has defect or coloration... I' thinking that crowded.. is a invite for mold / fungus.

No.. didn't take offense.. you made an effort to list yours in similar quality.. I was just making an excuses for being frugal.

By the way I didn't know you grew miniature apples...very nice... ha ha ha.. just kidding my friend.. hell of a good show / grow...

Next time throw down a Euro for comparison... ha ha

 

[SnappyJack]

More observations worth pointing out:

Approaching the second week of 12/12.. I'm a bit concerned that I don't see buds forming where as the mother plant took off in less than a week... maybe because the mother was 5 months old when I put into 12/12 and it's pot was already packed with roots.

These plant haven't even reached 50% root density... maybe their enjoying staying in vegetation?

Undaunted by this and the congestion.... I'll continue bending the stems and pointing them to open areas in the screen / net

What I found out is that bending the stems to horizontal tends to leave the area directly above center of the plant devoid of bud branches.

Not that their is a shortage of stems... their just not cramped in the center... but everywhere else it's a jungle

In the image above I'm making an attempt to guide the nearby auxiliary branches to these empty spaces.

 

[Eledin]

Hahaha you... thats not a mini apple, even tho is not a giant one either. In this pic Im holding one of them

Youre doing a good job, trimming them is a good idea yes, you can also remove some fan leaves if theyre not getting much light, those suck a lot of resources so if theyre not getting light. They tend to yellow in a few weeks after because the plant wants to get rid of it and takes the nutes. If you dont LST like mentioned before and/or do multiple topings is hard to get it 100% covered if possible at all so youre doing what you can.