Searching for high THCV strains

[Moe.Red]

Baby's first TLC try with my widow '94 bx "black widow" from Nirvana. Used a kit from cannalytics which included a nice pipette.

Is it just me or does it look like there is THCV in there? Perhaps it's CBG and thcv is absent... I kind of feel like CBG and cbc are blending....

Obviously i will do another test when i am fresh to compare precision since I am far from an expert like @Moe.Red , but still. Interesting spectrum at a minimum.

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Yes you have the v. I replied on planet Milson but really nice work on the plant. You have me beat on thcv!

 

[Moe.Red]

Well one difference is you may be using just a few cannabinoids, 3 or 4 or so ?
And you leave out more than 100 others that would be available naturally in the plant, possibly creating a very different effect.

You would need to understand my process to know that is not true. I’ll explain more when I get to a keyboard. But yes there is still a “base” plant that needs to be right in this process to work.

 

[Moe.Red]

Well one difference is you may be using just a few cannabinoids, 3 or 4 or so ?
And you leave out more than 100 others that would be available naturally in the plant, possibly creating a very different effect.

So first we need to unpack the implicit assumption in your statement. First there are 100 cannabinoids (I think that number is high), that they are all in every plant, that they are at levels sufficient to make an impact, and that impact is a positive one. Thats a lot of assumptions that I'm not willing to make.

There are just so many variables here that its hard to truly parse into useable information. Add to that the consumption method, addition of terpenoids and flavonoids in varying quantities, and the problem seems insurmountable to be clear on what causes what.

So let's say you wanted to see the effects of THCV. You could, as I showed pics of previously in this thread, take a bud ("full spectrum", but what's in it?) and add THCV to it and smoke it. Basically you are getting everything that was in the base plant with a might higher concentration of THCV. If you know the effects of the bud by itself, you can start to test theories about what THCV does and does not do. But you are still limited by what the base plant has in it for the full entourage effect.

Take it to the next level - do an Ethanol extraction keeping the sample temps below 40*C - and you have a full spectrum concentrate (undecarbed). You could then add stuff to that in varying quantities and see the result.

Next step, perform the Eth extraction on your 5 favorite plants. Combine them. You now have the complete cannabinoid and terpene profile of 5 plants, all of which have varying amounts of the ~85 cannabinoids (many will still be at undetectable levels). Now you are starting to get to a base that is much closer to what I think you are describing.

Here's where it gets hard - you have to select and grow plants that have varying makups. That is not easy, because seemingly all the breeders out there are looking for that high THC spike to the detriment of all else, which is in general the plants we are all talking about. Look at Milson's TLC - those giant blobs are THC. That is representative of 99% of the testing I have done and seen done with the genetics we are working with today. This high THC and little else result from breeding leads to what many call a boring high. But high it is, so it sells.

What about going back to landraces and finding those truly unique cannabinoids in detectable levels. Combine those. Then you can use the isolates to dial in percentages of the big cannabinoids - THC, CBD, CBC, CBG, THCV, etc. That goes for terps too.

What I am describing is a short cut to breeding. And more importantly, you can go off the rails trying to breed that one thing (like THCV) and screw up the proportions of other good stuff in the process. I submit that a single plant will never be as wide a spectrum of molecules as the process I have outlined. And what if, after your years of breeding for a THCV spike - you get the same result as today's commercial pot. A heavily skewed plant towards one cannabinoid. And what if we know that CBD and THCV work together along with other molecules to reach the desired effect - and your newly minted genetic masterpiece has no CBD? Do you claim THC Victory and sell the seeds that produce a plant that has limited effect? Marketing 101 says yes.

There may come a time when all these interactions are fully understood, and a plant so perfect in every way is bred to contain exactly what is needed (which of course will vary by the person consuming) but I am not holding my breath.

Yes, I get that what I am proposing is both foreign and in many cases uncomfortable for people to embrace. But it's what I do as an engineer. It's not that different from metallurgy in all honesty. Add a small amount of chromium to carbon steel and get stainless, a completely different yet equally useful alloy. Add too much and you ruin the result. Not enough, same problem.

Somebody will figure all this stuff out eventually. For right now, might as well be me, I got nothing else important going on!

My last thought before I jump off my soap box - how do you know that THCV (or whatever you are going for) will actually do the work inside you that you hope to get done? This is what I want to flesh out with my known qty of different molecules. You know all the things that CBD supposedly cures? Hell they even put it in pet products now. I call BS in my gut, but I don't really know unless I experience it myself, right?

The scientific method is an empirical method of acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century. It involves careful observation, applying rigorous skepticism about what is observed, given that cognitive assumptions can distort how one interprets the observation. It involves formulating hypotheses, via induction, based on such observations; experimental and measurement-based testing of deductions drawn from the hypotheses; and refinement (or elimination) of the hypotheses based on the experimental findings. These are principles of the scientific method, as distinguished from a definitive series of steps applicable to all scientific enterprises.[1][2][3]

To which I would add that once a hypothesis is proven, another must be able to duplicate results or it is rejected. This is doubly hard when the thing you are testing is your own brain.

 

[Moe.Red]

I kind of feel like CBG and cbc are blending....

A couple things you can do to help this.

#1 - use the entire plate. Start your drops lower and let the eluent make it nearly all the way to the top. This will aid in separation.
#1A - if you are specifically testing for those 2, you can let the eluent run all the way to the top and then some, aiding in separation of the slower molecules. This will eliminate the testability of the top of the plate, but there is nothing interesting up there anyhow.
#2 - use Fast Blue BB dye instead of what they sent with the kit. CBG is orange and CBC is purple with fast blue, helping with detection.
#3 - Tune your decarb to the molecule(s) you are interested in. I explained that in the video series where I did decarb testing on Jack the Ripper.

 

[Milson]

A couple things you can do to help this.

#1 - use the entire plate. Start your drops lower and let the eluent make it nearly all the way to the top. This will aid in separation.
#1A - if you are specifically testing for those 2, you can let the eluent run all the way to the top and then some, aiding in separation of the slower molecules. This will eliminate the testability of the top of the plate, but there is nothing interesting up there anyhow.
#2 - use Fast Blue BB dye instead of what they sent with the kit. CBG is orange and CBC is purple with fast blue, helping with detection.
#3 - Tune your decarb to the molecule(s) you are interested in. I explained that in the video series where I did decarb testing on Jack the Ripper.

Thank you! Now that i have my feet wet my brain is on overdrive....thinking how i can do the test more precisely....the notion of going closer to the edge of the plate is like steadyyyyyyy lol.

Gotta watch that video again.....thank you again for those.

 

[Imone]

My first grow was Lebanese landrace indoors...12/12 from day one. The timer for bumped and lites were off eighteen hours and naturally I got hermied. I didn't find any bananas but both plants got seeded. One was a very strong couch lock stone. That was the red stemmed Pheno. I didn't over feed by the way...
The other was a green stem Pheno that produces a mellow high that wakes up your mind and keeps you focused. It's like coffee but better.
I want to grow it again. I'm not sure if it hermied or the other one did...or both. I have some pollen from a Vietnamese black I'm thinking of trying on it. Maybe a long flowering sativa will reduce the hermied?
Does this green stem Lebanese sound like a thcV strain?

 

[Moe.Red]

Does this green stem Lebanese sound like a thcV strain?

Plausible. Still got any?

 

[Imone]

Yes I do...it is older but the effect remains good. I think I will get it tested. I am asking for bids on testing now.

 

[Moe.Red]

Yes I do...it is older but the effect remains good. I think I will get it tested. I am asking for bids on testing now.

Where are you?

 

[Imone]

Near Oklahoma City, I am getting it tested today...

 

[Poekie]

So first we need to unpack the implicit assumption in your statement. First there are 100 cannabinoids (I think that number is high), that they are all in every plant, that they are at levels sufficient to make an impact, and that impact is a positive one. Thats a lot of assumptions that I'm not willing to make.

There are just so many variables here that its hard to truly parse into useable information. Add to that the consumption method, addition of terpenoids and flavonoids in varying quantities, and the problem seems insurmountable to be clear on what causes what.

So let's say you wanted to see the effects of THCV. You could, as I showed pics of previously in this thread, take a bud ("full spectrum", but what's in it?) and add THCV to it and smoke it. Basically you are getting everything that was in the base plant with a might higher concentration of THCV. If you know the effects of the bud by itself, you can start to test theories about what THCV does and does not do. But you are still limited by what the base plant has in it for the full entourage effect.

Take it to the next level - do an Ethanol extraction keeping the sample temps below 40*C - and you have a full spectrum concentrate (undecarbed). You could then add stuff to that in varying quantities and see the result.

Next step, perform the Eth extraction on your 5 favorite plants. Combine them. You now have the complete cannabinoid and terpene profile of 5 plants, all of which have varying amounts of the ~85 cannabinoids (many will still be at undetectable levels). Now you are starting to get to a base that is much closer to what I think you are describing.

Here's where it gets hard - you have to select and grow plants that have varying makups. That is not easy, because seemingly all the breeders out there are looking for that high THC spike to the detriment of all else, which is in general the plants we are all talking about. Look at Milson's TLC - those giant blobs are THC. That is representative of 99% of the testing I have done and seen done with the genetics we are working with today. This high THC and little else result from breeding leads to what many call a boring high. But high it is, so it sells.

What about going back to landraces and finding those truly unique cannabinoids in detectable levels. Combine those. Then you can use the isolates to dial in percentages of the big cannabinoids - THC, CBD, CBC, CBG, THCV, etc. That goes for terps too.

What I am describing is a short cut to breeding. And more importantly, you can go off the rails trying to breed that one thing (like THCV) and screw up the proportions of other good stuff in the process. I submit that a single plant will never be as wide a spectrum of molecules as the process I have outlined. And what if, after your years of breeding for a THCV spike - you get the same result as today's commercial pot. A heavily skewed plant towards one cannabinoid. And what if we know that CBD and THCV work together along with other molecules to reach the desired effect - and your newly minted genetic masterpiece has no CBD? Do you claim THC Victory and sell the seeds that produce a plant that has limited effect? Marketing 101 says yes.

There may come a time when all these interactions are fully understood, and a plant so perfect in every way is bred to contain exactly what is needed (which of course will vary by the person consuming) but I am not holding my breath.

Yes, I get that what I am proposing is both foreign and in many cases uncomfortable for people to embrace. But it's what I do as an engineer. It's not that different from metallurgy in all honesty. Add a small amount of chromium to carbon steel and get stainless, a completely different yet equally useful alloy. Add too much and you ruin the result. Not enough, same problem.

Somebody will figure all this stuff out eventually. For right now, might as well be me, I got nothing else important going on!

My last thought before I jump off my soap box - how do you know that THCV (or whatever you are going for) will actually do the work inside you that you hope to get done? This is what I want to flesh out with my known qty of different molecules. You know all the things that CBD supposedly cures? Hell they even put it in pet products now. I call BS in my gut, but I don't really know unless I experience it myself, right?

The scientific method is an empirical method of acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century. It involves careful observation, applying rigorous skepticism about what is observed, given that cognitive assumptions can distort how one interprets the observation. It involves formulating hypotheses, via induction, based on such observations; experimental and measurement-based testing of deductions drawn from the hypotheses; and refinement (or elimination) of the hypotheses based on the experimental findings. These are principles of the scientific method, as distinguished from a definitive series of steps applicable to all scientific enterprises.[1][2][3]

To which I would add that once a hypothesis is proven, another must be able to duplicate results or it is rejected. This is doubly hard when the thing you are testing is your own brain.

Gotcha
Thanks for explaining, and let me add, glad your ego doesnt get upset with my comment, that is never my intention, i only care about the information.
As far as i am concerned you can stay on your soap box all day long.

You and Milson take discussions to another level, i am just following along and learning, hope my occasional comments have some value...

Apart from that, i do think its a pity that now there are 2 Thcv threads.

The "base plant", i really like that expression and now understand what you meant.
Thanks.

 

[Moe.Red]

Gotcha
Thanks for explaining, and let me add, glad your ego doesnt get upset with my comment, that is never my intention, i only care about the information.
As far as i am concerned you can stay on your soap box all day long.

You and Milson take discussions to another level, i am just following along and learning, hope my occasional comments have some value...

Apart from that, i do think its a pity that now there are 2 Thcv threads.

The "base plant", i really like that expression and now understand what you meant.
Thanks.

I love the questions. There is no room in the scientific method for ego. I will also be the first one to admit I'm wrong and shamelessly steal your ideas if you have a better one. And if I said something that still does not make sense or seems wrong, I'm open to intellectual challenges.

I agree about the 2 threads. Things went south over there in a hurry. I contacted Trips via PM and tried to smooth things over, but that thread devolved quickly to a bunch of bad juju, name calling, whatever. I just don't have tolerance for drama and bullshit, so I noped out with several others. But not before I asked Trips to make up with the others on this thread and move over here. Apparently that was a no go for him, so

 

[Milson]

I love the questions. There is no room in the scientific method for ego. I will also be the first one to admit I'm wrong and shamelessly steal your ideas if you have a better one. And if I said something that still does not make sense or seems wrong, I'm open to intellectual challenges.

I agree about the 2 threads. Things went south over there in a hurry. I contacted Trips via PM and tried to smooth things over, but that thread devolved quickly to a bunch of bad juju, name calling, whatever. I just don't have tolerance for drama and bullshit, so I noped out with several others. But not before I asked Trips to make up with the others on this thread and move over here. Apparently that was a no go for him, so

Your mature push toward the heavily focused and technical aspects of this field have been an awesome contribution to this community and i know a lot of people here are grateful for that.

Sad what happened with the other thread, but these kinds of things bubble up and pop sometimes i guess. If i feel myself getting mad and have time to hit the eject button i really do try to.

 

[Imone]

This forum seems to have it share of bushut. This is one of the few times I posted here.

 

[Moe.Red]

Very nice of you to say. I don't know any other way to be.

Not to get all gushy here, but I could not be in the position I am today without the farm and folks like you guiding me. My horticulture experience is a drop in the bucket compared to you guys. The number of self imposed glass ceilings (I'm the guy who previously was afraid of pollen in my grow space) I have shattered thanks to you guys is pretty impressive. If I ever do reach my desired state I will not have gotten there alone.

Need a bro hug now?

 

[Imone]

Testing for potency of CBD, cbg, thc thcV etc is fifty dollars. Terpene testing is supposed to be sixty five. They said they will do both for hundred! I will report back.

 

[Imone]

I dropped it off and should hear back in four days

 

[Moe.Red]

I dropped it off and should hear back in four days

Love how you jump right in there.

 

[Imone]

Well I had a day off...and the wife wanted out of the house so...

 

[Milson]

Just want to share that the initial results with this the widow you see the chemical signature of above in a shortbread cookie preparation (infused into grapseseed oil and with lecithin) are quite positive for my dad. Like, there is a neurological benefit and I can see it in the curve of his back when he is standing.

I am trying to be cautious and I am not claiming a miracle here, but to put it mildly this merits a lot of further research on my part. The fact he experiences minor dyskinesia similar to that he gets from DBS and sinamet suggests.....I mean you tell me. To me it says there is something neurological going on as opposed to just treating the pain separately.