The Magic Bullet

HookedonPonics · Mar 16, 2014

gliders420 said:
How did your run turn out? I just read the whole thread and you said you were doing a side by side

Yes I did, internode spacing was shorter using the Ca-25 and stretch wasn't as drastic on the table that received the foliar regiment including Ca-25 before and the week after flip. It's been awhile since that run and I can't remember the exact numbers but I use it on everything now. Stuff lasts forever too.

Bangarang · Mar 21, 2014

I just recieved my Cal-25 to get this straight. 1 Tsp/gal every 10 days? When is the best time to stop applying?
Cap's post "1 x per week from rooted cut to end of stretch for me." What happens if you spray later in flower?

Jalisco Kid · Mar 21, 2014

You get thicker bud,but what do you mean by later in flower. I would not take it to much past week 5 or so as I think it cuts back on flavor. Really depend on how you have been applying the Ca to your plant and in what medium.

Bangarang said:
I just recieved my Cal-25 to get this straight. 1 Tsp/gal every 10 days? When is the best time to stop applying?
Cap's post "1 x per week from rooted cut to end of stretch for me." What happens if you spray later in flower?

CelticEBE · Apr 26, 2014

@Capulator do you use yucca with Cal-25?

Also, because my foliars don't always land on a day that I have made tea, so I would like to just add the Foliar pack to the mix. My question is this. Do I need to add a food source for the Foliar pack? I realize that with tea there is a food source available. But if I just mixed up a batch of ca-25, kelp, and foliar pack.....would they be lacking?

One last question. Would using saturator and doing my foliar with lights turned down be harmful to the foliar pack?

Thanks Cap!

Bangarang · Apr 27, 2014

I do not know if i can see the direct effect of the Cal25 on a plant. I have been applying Cal25 and then two days later ferti-nitro. I will be honest the ferti-nitro is the shit in veg or whenever you need a dash more N. Anyone ever use ferti-nitro in there Res?

Seamaiden · Apr 28, 2014

Bangarang said:
I do not know if i can see the direct effect of the Cal25 on a plant. I have been applying Cal25 and then two days later ferti-nitro. I will be honest the ferti-nitro is the shit in veg or whenever you need a dash more N. Anyone ever use ferti-nitro in there Res?

You won't be able to see a direct (immediate) effect from Ca-25 due to Ca's immobility.

Capulator · Apr 28, 2014

CelticEBE said:
@Capulator do you use yucca with Cal-25?

Also, because my foliars don't always land on a day that I have made tea, so I would like to just add the Foliar pack to the mix. My question is this. Do I need to add a food source for the Foliar pack? I realize that with tea there is a food source available. But if I just mixed up a batch of ca-25, kelp, and foliar pack.....would they be lacking?

One last question. Would using saturator and doing my foliar with lights turned down be harmful to the foliar pack?

Thanks Cap!

Yes. I use thermx 70 whenever I spray and yes you can just use the foliar pack, kelp and some thermx. I would alternate between that and the Ca25. Spray Ca25 day one and then foliar pack mix day 2.

@Seamaiden I disagree I feel like the leaves are thicker and more turgid a day after I use Ca25. Just my own observation though.

Herb Forester · Apr 28, 2014

@Capulator have you examined this solution under your microscope? At the ppms we use for foliar, I thought calcium chloride more or less sterilizes whatever is mixed with it. Am I wrong?

Capulator · Apr 28, 2014

Herb Forester said:
@Capulator have you examined this solution under your microscope? At the ppms we use for foliar, I thought calcium chloride more or less sterilizes whatever is mixed with it. Am I wrong?

nope. I will do that. chloride is not chlorine though.

Billyboat · Apr 29, 2014

Hey cap I keep seeing ca25 sold out everywhere... Any idea on where to grab some

Herb Forester · Apr 29, 2014

As I understand it, CaCl2 is used in biotech for transforming bacteria (hosting DNA). It dissociates into Ca2++ and 2 Cl-. The Ca ions make the cell membrane more permeable, and the negatively charged chloride ions pass through carrying water molecules with them, causing the cell to swell and take up the new DNA.

The process compromises the bacteria somehow, but this is where my limited knowledge ends. Also I have no idea what concentrations are used, but was assuming (incorrectly?) that it's much less than our foliar application rates.

OGkushistein · Apr 29, 2014

Billyboat said:
Hey cap I keep seeing ca25 sold out everywhere... Any idea on where to grab some

I purchased the product using a money-order delivered to there address.49.95 +5.60 shipping fee
Bio-Gard Agronomics, Inc.
10518 Rosehaven Street/104
Fairfax,VA 22030 U.S.A.

Capulator · Apr 29, 2014

Herb Forester said:
As I understand it, CaCl2 is used in biotech for transforming bacteria (hosting DNA). It dissociates into Ca2++ and 2 Cl-. The Ca ions make the cell membrane more permeable, and the negatively charged chloride ions pass through carrying water molecules with them, causing the cell to swell and take up the new DNA.

The process compromises the bacteria somehow, but this is where my limited knowledge ends. Also I have no idea what concentrations are used, but was assuming (incorrectly?) that it's much less than our foliar application rates.

fuckin A I have no clue. I don't think I could see DNA changes in bacteria with my scope anyway. ;)

Herb Forester · Apr 30, 2014

Capulator said:
fuckin A I have no clue. I don't think I could see DNA changes in bacteria with my scope anyway. ;)

What I meant was if low concentrations damage the bacteria (cell membrane integrity), I guessed 1000ppm would do them in for sure. I don't have Calcium25 to compare, but that's roughly the rate I spray CaCl2. Unfortunately no microscope either.

Capulator · Apr 30, 2014

I also have a huge bottle of metalosate Ca. When in doubt, switch to something you don't have questions about. haha. All I know is the results I see, so maybe I am killing all the bacteria and only spraying CaCl2 and tricontanol (if that is what Ca25 is) with some kelp?

@Herb Forester I just read some shit about CaCl2 opening the bacterias "pores" so that DNA can get in..cool weird shit.

I was reading this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21071211 and it seems that they are saying that CaCl2 actually causes the bacillus to produce more yPGA (whatever that is).. it's slightly over my head though so i may be inferring wrong.

Fuck now I am thinking too hard and I need some sleep. I can't concentrate on complex science ATM.

I think @squiggly had an awesomely scientific answer to CaCl2 and bacteria..

Also I have read YS talking about the supposed detrimental effects of Ca25 on bacteria (Funny that because I started using Ca25 because of him in the first place) :facepalm:

squiggly · Apr 30, 2014

PGA stands for poly-glutamic acid. Glutamine is an amino acid with an amine (specifically an amide) side chain, seen here:

The left side of this molecule (beyond the first NH2 from the right) is the side chain.

In glutamate this side chain is modified. Glutamate is a precursor to glutamine typically in biosynthesis. The side chain is modified thusly (ignore Na):

A hydroxyl group has replaced the amino group in glutamine. This makes the side chain acidic rather than basic. This hydroxyl groups on both ends are actually deprotonated at biological pH which means the carboxylic acid (protonated form) into a carboxylate (deprotonated form), seen here (again ignore the Na ion, it's simply there to "balance" the molecule ionically--also note the orientation is flipped left to right in this picture):

^^That thing is glutamate, sodium gluatamate to be specific.

The "y" in yPGA is actually a "gamma". This refers to a type of linkage wherein the amino group forms (leftmost in the above picture) a peptide bond (amide bond) with the carboxyl group on the side chain of a second glutamate (rightmost in the above picture).

This looks something like what's seen on wiki:

The "n" here as well as the trailing bonds denote that this bond can be made many times. The "poly" refers to the fact that many such bonds are made in yPGA. This thing is essentially a big amino acid chain, really big.

This is of particular interest to us because water soluble polyorganic acids of greater size than 1250-1500 Da (daltons) increase fertilizer uptake in plants and therefore promote plant growth. To use a term we're all familiar with by now, these big polyorganic acids help to chelate fertilizers.

So, in short yPGA is good. More is better.

squiggly · Apr 30, 2014

Capulator said:
and it seems that they are saying that CaCl2 actually causes the bacillus to produce more yPGA (whatever that is).. it's slightly over my head though so i may be inferring wrong.

You are correct.

Capulator · Apr 30, 2014

squiggly said:
You are correct.

LOL squiggs I love you man but I need a decoder ring when you start talkin science. Is 1000ppm of Cl from CaCl2 bad for the bacteria? Am I killing them by mixing a teaspoon of Ca25 in to a gallon of tea. I was reading that the h20 "surrounds" the Ca and Cl in solution, that they don't form any other compounds, so will the Cl from this solution negatively (or positively) impact ALL the bennies or just a bunch of them, or none at all?

squiggly · Apr 30, 2014

Capulator said:
LOL squiggs I love you man but I need a decoder ring when you start talkin science. Is 1000ppm of Cl from CaCl2 bad for the bacteria? Am I killing them by mixing a teaspoon of Ca25 in to a gallon of tea. I was reading that the h20 "surrounds" the Ca and Cl in solution, that they don't form any other compounds, so will the Cl from this solution negatively (or positively) impact ALL the bennies or just a bunch of them, or none at all?

That I can't tell you. But I'm moving tomorrow and should be set up in about 2-3 weeks with my lab. I can run some tests for you then.

Also, it's not specifically true that the Ca won't react with anything else. This depends on concentrations. When things are dissolved they take on what is known as a clathritic structure.

The water does "surround" them, but they don't specifically prevent reactivity. These clathrates are short lived and constantly interconverting millions of times a second--so there are always openings sprouting up where something can get in and react.

It's less likely you'll see a reaction with the Cl spectator ions floating around for a number of reasons, but it can still happen.

Here's a clathrate:

To explain the interconversion between clathrates imagine you've got your Ca atom and it's falling straight down through a solution.

Imagine the water is aligned in sheets, and that as the Ca ion passes through each sheet, it closes around it in this clathrate structure. As it falls through the bottom of the clathrate and into another sheet, this happens again and again (and the previous clathrate structure goes back into its "sheet" configuration).

That's not specifically how it works, but it gives a better visualization than seeing the clathrate alone.

Here's what one of the "sheets" might look like:

squiggly · Apr 30, 2014

Also based on what you're showing here in terms of increase yPGA production. I wonder if it might not be beneficial to actually kill a number of the bacteria to release all of their products into a slurry that you could also apply. In addition to making available a great deal of the raw products your living bacteria need, you would make a lot more yPGA available directly to the roots.

Doing an application for this would look something like this to me:

Brew your tea. Dillute and apply as normal.

Take some of your undiluted tea and put it under high pressure to lyse the cells (or apply a great deal of physical force to it, to break the cells open--a blender might work well enough).
Use the resultant solution as a root drench, and apply a bit of it as a diluted foliar the day AFTER you apply your bacterial foliar (you would need to be sure to continue to bubble air through it so as not to invite anaerobes--but this could be done on a much smaller scale).

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