MGRox
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- Aug 6, 2014
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@Power OG stellar pics as always!
@Stumpy420 she's gonna be "gettin' down to it" real soon.
@Lazerus00 Looking good! I've still got mine in smaller pots (bad me, bad) will be too late for the 1 liters haha.
Ok, so finally I've got an update with headband (pheno 2 of 2).
For those that have and may be still following the urea and bullrider;
So, the bulk of the bulls that got the modified urea formula previously shown; are far enough along to make comparisons with my original formula. As well I'm starting to get data points for the new urea mix I'm testing (mentioned with lower NH4 and JR peters instead of MG for urea). Thankfully everything has / is responding as intended; which means there's not some other factor still unknown....yay.
I want to state up front here again that bullrider responds to this much more than other strains. I have a fuel in each week set and I could not tell you when I changed things; however I can visibly see exactly what was changed with bull. As such, I'm using bull as the basis to try to determine "optimal" and "preferable" ratios; that will / are being applied to other strains.
So then to cover in one spot;
-The original formula is 53% urea, 36% NH4 and 11% NO3.
-The modified formula is 34% Urea, 21% NH4 and 45% NO3. (previously shown)
-The Low NH4 formula is 32% Urea, 10% NH4 and 58% NO3.
--ALL SAME NPK-- // --- Modified and Low NH4 also same Mg, Ca and very close S, Fe and traces.
I have early thoughts with the low NH4 formula.
Last but not least. I need to get some pics up of the new stuff that's coming along too. hopefully that will come shortly. Due to space constraints I've had to keep things as small as possible so far.
@Stumpy420 she's gonna be "gettin' down to it" real soon.
@Lazerus00 Looking good! I've still got mine in smaller pots (bad me, bad) will be too late for the 1 liters haha.
Ok, so finally I've got an update with headband (pheno 2 of 2).
First, the pic; On the left is with Urea (modified formula, shown previously) and the right is with NO3.
I have actually flowered more than the "bean run" of this; though I didn't weigh each one, so I'll use the bean number. From a bean and with NO3 I got 56. This run with modified urea god 54 (not a hold back).
From a form perspective, this strain was one that bordered on "loose" with NO3. I had hoped the density and structure would be possibly improved with urea and both were; though I would say density increase was not large.
From a smoke /flavor perspective, this strain has been kept so far because of it's flavor and I'm not a flavor guy. It has a nice full bouquet and sweetness with NO3. However, with urea; again the flavor profile was altered and "narrowed". As well the sweet component is much less noticeable. As a result of this and marginal improvement in density; if I were to keep this strain further, I would run it with NO3 and not urea
I have actually flowered more than the "bean run" of this; though I didn't weigh each one, so I'll use the bean number. From a bean and with NO3 I got 56. This run with modified urea god 54 (not a hold back).
From a form perspective, this strain was one that bordered on "loose" with NO3. I had hoped the density and structure would be possibly improved with urea and both were; though I would say density increase was not large.
From a smoke /flavor perspective, this strain has been kept so far because of it's flavor and I'm not a flavor guy. It has a nice full bouquet and sweetness with NO3. However, with urea; again the flavor profile was altered and "narrowed". As well the sweet component is much less noticeable. As a result of this and marginal improvement in density; if I were to keep this strain further, I would run it with NO3 and not urea
So, the bulk of the bulls that got the modified urea formula previously shown; are far enough along to make comparisons with my original formula. As well I'm starting to get data points for the new urea mix I'm testing (mentioned with lower NH4 and JR peters instead of MG for urea). Thankfully everything has / is responding as intended; which means there's not some other factor still unknown....yay.
I want to state up front here again that bullrider responds to this much more than other strains. I have a fuel in each week set and I could not tell you when I changed things; however I can visibly see exactly what was changed with bull. As such, I'm using bull as the basis to try to determine "optimal" and "preferable" ratios; that will / are being applied to other strains.
I'm very happy with the previously shown urea formula as applied to a "preferable" ratio to use. As compared to the original formula; there is a good consistency and uniformity of structure and it is not quite as dependent on timing. As well, the increase of Ca, Mg and lowering of NH4 seem to help increase overall "health" (used loosely).
However this does reduce the "effect" to a marginal degree compared to the original formula. I believe for a formula to "try", that is fairly "safe"; while still achieving the effects of urea, the previously shown formula is best.
below is a pic (though not great). I tried to get multiple tops to show consistency of form and health. These are 3 tops from 2 plants at about 7 weeks. These got the modified urea formula shown (week 3-6).
However this does reduce the "effect" to a marginal degree compared to the original formula. I believe for a formula to "try", that is fairly "safe"; while still achieving the effects of urea, the previously shown formula is best.
below is a pic (though not great). I tried to get multiple tops to show consistency of form and health. These are 3 tops from 2 plants at about 7 weeks. These got the modified urea formula shown (week 3-6).
-The original formula is 53% urea, 36% NH4 and 11% NO3.
-The modified formula is 34% Urea, 21% NH4 and 45% NO3. (previously shown)
-The Low NH4 formula is 32% Urea, 10% NH4 and 58% NO3.
--ALL SAME NPK-- // --- Modified and Low NH4 also same Mg, Ca and very close S, Fe and traces.
I have early thoughts with the low NH4 formula.
The change from the modified to low NH4 formula, as related to the urea effect; is quite dramatic. It would appear that a Large fraction of the urea effect will be negated or negatively impacted with this formula. The ONLY alterations to the entire profile was the drop from 20% to 10% NH4; which moved NO3 up from 45% to 58%. This means there are still 2 possible reasons for why the effect is largely gone. A. a minimal level of NH4 was not achieved. B. The increase of NO3 in relation to Urea. I'm 95% sure that B. is the case.
There is no good way to test this as even making 2 formulas would still require a variation in urea; which adds another variable.
If this is the case; then it could be hypothesized that having an NO3 ratio in excess of 50% total N will largely negate the urea effect. Basically you're going to have to go full on into a urea formula or risk negative or no positive results; related to the urea effect.
Waaay back at the beginning of this all I related to the fact that my bull lowers its NO3 utilization ability moving into flower. That this was often evidenced by bits of NO3+ and that the urea formula did not do this. I have a pic from one bull at about 4 weeks (with the new low NH4 urea formula) and you can see the classic "nitrate" related effects with my bull.
Negatives in this pic from Nitrate.
-Note the smaller topmost leaves and are thin.
-Note the NO3+ clawing on the newest growth signaling borderline toxicity.
-Note narrower and elongated / stretched top cola.
-Note while darker green; the leaves are not overly shiny.
I'll continue this formula until there are enough specimens to develop an average basis from; however I fully expect a decent drop in yield / form and structure from this formula as compared to the previous. It is still early to tell for sure, but I believe these will be a bit "gapped" in the top sections and rather narrow in form. I.e. more what you would have typically expected to occur with higher urea levels not higher nitrate.
One other final note I hadn't pointed out as a possible positive with the Urea formula. As far as "trim" leaves (fully crystalized); my bull would typically average 5-7 grams of trim per plant with NO3. However, with urea it has only been 2-3 grams. I notice with the new lower NH4 formula, again there are going to be significantly more leaves. Comparison there cannot be made until several are done.
There is no good way to test this as even making 2 formulas would still require a variation in urea; which adds another variable.
If this is the case; then it could be hypothesized that having an NO3 ratio in excess of 50% total N will largely negate the urea effect. Basically you're going to have to go full on into a urea formula or risk negative or no positive results; related to the urea effect.
Waaay back at the beginning of this all I related to the fact that my bull lowers its NO3 utilization ability moving into flower. That this was often evidenced by bits of NO3+ and that the urea formula did not do this. I have a pic from one bull at about 4 weeks (with the new low NH4 urea formula) and you can see the classic "nitrate" related effects with my bull.
Negatives in this pic from Nitrate.
-Note the smaller topmost leaves and are thin.
-Note the NO3+ clawing on the newest growth signaling borderline toxicity.
-Note narrower and elongated / stretched top cola.
-Note while darker green; the leaves are not overly shiny.
I'll continue this formula until there are enough specimens to develop an average basis from; however I fully expect a decent drop in yield / form and structure from this formula as compared to the previous. It is still early to tell for sure, but I believe these will be a bit "gapped" in the top sections and rather narrow in form. I.e. more what you would have typically expected to occur with higher urea levels not higher nitrate.
One other final note I hadn't pointed out as a possible positive with the Urea formula. As far as "trim" leaves (fully crystalized); my bull would typically average 5-7 grams of trim per plant with NO3. However, with urea it has only been 2-3 grams. I notice with the new lower NH4 formula, again there are going to be significantly more leaves. Comparison there cannot be made until several are done.