To Foam Or Not To Foam: Why Isn't My Tea Foaming? Is That Bad?

[Seamaiden]

That's an idea, caveman... but when I've used the foam, I collect it in a bucket and then the bubbles tend to break down. I truly do not know the answer, my assumption, though, has been greater nutrient density. For all I know it's to do with the polarity of the molecules involved.

 

[squiggly]

Bubbles form in structures known as micelles which are arranged thusly:

This orientation can be flipped if they are in a nonpolar solvent like hexanes.

As Seamaiden suggests this has to do with polarity.

Hydrophilic essentially means "polar", whereas hydrophobic is nonpolar.

This arrangement of molecules is, while the least thermodynamically "expensive" formation for this type of molecule in a polar solvent, actually a fairly ordered structure. Because of entropy these molecules will not tend to arrange themselves this way if there is no polar solvent present.

What happens when you skim the foam off is that basically, air is a nonpolar "solvent" for the most part--but its not extremely polar either. It's in a bit of a middle ground. So there is no reason for the bubbles to keep their shape.

Essentially the only reason that the bubbles form in the first place is that it would be more difficult for the water to create complex structures around the nonpolar ends of these molecules. These structures are typically called clathrates, and they are even MORE ordered than micelles. Because entropy basically says that the least ordered thermodynamic configuration will be favored you end up with micelles rather than clathrates. In a strange way (and this isn't always clear without a lot of exposure to theory) it's actually the existence of the possibility for clathrates that drives the formation of micelles. I can't really demystify the reasoning behind that without a bunch of math and a few hours of lessons lol.

When you take the foam out of solution the compound/mixture has no need to arrange itself into either of these configurations and so it just falls apart (probably into a liquid).
As an experiment you can take this liquid, reintroduce it into a cup of water and whip it up really well--you should end up with bubbles.

Another possibility is that the inside of the bubbles is actually made up of, mostly nonpolar, air and that you're getting some thermodynamic interactions from that and the formation of bubbles has more to do wit viscosity/polarity of the liquid itself than it does with amphpathic molecules in it.

Clathrates look something like this:

 

[caveman4.20]

My new favorite word is clathrates!

 

[Seamaiden]

My new favorite word is two words--squamate hemipene.

:D

Squigs just schooled us.

 

[Capulator]

Here is a tea with no foam. I scoped it to be sure there was life, and there was a shitload of active bacteria and a lot of beautiful hyphae development in this batch. No foam=no problem.

 

[Capulator]

Well it looks like youtube fucked my video up. I will have to try again later.

 

[Fresh Starts]

I added 4 cups of alfalfa to my brewer and when I came back a day later the foam went out of control!

How long do you wait to pull the alfalfa out of the brewer cap?

 

[Capulator]

I added 4 cups of alfalfa to my brewer and when I came back a day later the foam went out of control!

How long do you wait to pull the alfalfa out of the brewer cap?

I am not sure I understand the question can you elaborate please?

 

[Fresh Starts]

Alfalfa is a great addition for a little tricontanol boost. I add a handful or two to my tea. Just have to be diligent about using it in a timely manner, and not slacking and letting it hang out for a long time, or it will smell like horseshit.

How long do you let it hang out in you're brewer before you take it out?

 

[Funkstarfish]

just a few more cents.

I was brewing my own Compost teas with a small air pump and stone and getting very minimal foam. I recently upgraded to a very strong air pump and my teas foam like the pictures. So the amount of air you add makes a difference, but I assume that has more to do with fractionation than an increase of bio activity. either way they both smell like sweet earth and forest humus, and both seem to work, but for some reason, i like the foam. makes me feel cozy. I also sometimes scrape the foam from the top and dump it on things... figure that foams got a lot of protiens in it anyway.

also, if you keep orchids, compost teas are the answer. foliar and drench, compost teas will grow orchids like nothing else. I've got around 20 that flower every year in a south facing window with no supplementation of light or heat.

Compost teas for the win. foam, or no foam, still wins.

 

[budm]

How long do you let it hang out in you're brewer before you take it out?

You don't take it out... You can add a small amount (i use 5-10 drops in a 5 gallon brew) of vegetable oil to help with the foam though.

 

[Fresh Starts]

To be clear, I'm not concerned with the foaming as much as I am with my brew smelling like horse dung.

 

[budm]

Lol, I haven't found anything to offset that smell! But to be honest, I've not been looking too hard either. I did try to steep some alfalfa once to extract the good stuff - you think the tea smells bad, omg my experiment was rank!!

 

[Fresh Starts]

Seriously though- I was not expecting the smell. Its really like farm animal poop. I brewed the alfalfa for 2 days and that was all it took- I threw the stuff out. I must say that I am hoping to see a very positive outcome from this batch of tea. If not I'm not sure the smell is worth brewing again. It also made the tea much more opaque- it looks rich.

I've added bioag cytoplus which is a humic acid with seaweed extract in granular form into the tea alongside the alfalfa.
My plants seem to like it.

 

[Seamaiden]

How long do you let it hang out in you're brewer before you take it out?

You can make a quick alfalfa tea that doesn't smell anywhere nearly as bad as what you get via a typically brewed tea. A handful of hay (less if it's meal) into about a half gallon of warm water, let it steep for a half hour to an hour, and there you have it.

Oh, shit! You let it brew for two days? Emphasis on the shit, eh?

just a few more cents.

I was brewing my own Compost teas with a small air pump and stone and getting very minimal foam. I recently upgraded to a very strong air pump and my teas foam like the pictures. So the amount of air you add makes a difference, but I assume that has more to do with fractionation than an increase of bio activity. either way they both smell like sweet earth and forest humus, and both seem to work, but for some reason, i like the foam. makes me feel cozy. I also sometimes scrape the foam from the top and dump it on things... figure that foams got a lot of protiens in it anyway.

also, if you keep orchids, compost teas are the answer. foliar and drench, compost teas will grow orchids like nothing else. I've got around 20 that flower every year in a south facing window with no supplementation of light or heat.

Compost teas for the win. foam, or no foam, still wins.

Yep! Concentrated nutrients, really. Just don't know what all is in there without some kind of assay. I wish I could keep orchids. My mother does in her cage thingy in SoCal, my grandmother did in Puerto Rico and I have a cousin who lives in the mountains in PR and she's got a greenhouse just filled to the brim with orchids and gingers. I only have two south-facing windows here, one is tiny and high and the other's in a bedroom. East and west facing galore, south facing, not so much.

 

[budm]

You can make a quick alfalfa tea that doesn't smell anywhere nearly as bad as what you get via a typically brewed tea. A handful of hay (less if it's meal) into about a half gallon of warm water, let it steep for a half hour to an hour, and there you have it.

Thanks Sea, that explains where my 'steep' went wrong. I put roughly 2 cups of alfalfa meal into a 2L coke bottle and filled up 3/4 of the way with distilled water. Said bottle was then placed under a tree out back where it's in the sun 1/2 day and shade 1/2 day. About 30 days later, I remembered that I had put it out there - lol. When I picked up the bottle it was rock hard. I now know it was hard from the internal pressure of the bottle because when I opened the lid it literally exploded everywhere; on me, the tree, the yard, the neighbor's dog and OMG the smell was horrible. It took several days to get it out of my nostrils!! :oops: :facepalm:

 

[Seamaiden]

Oh my GOD!!!!!! LMAO!!!! That's hilarious, it's something I would totally do.

 

[Funkstarfish]

Hey Seamaiden

Next time i do divisions ill get in touch. I have an orchid that is pretty hard to kill and never stops blooming, i mean it literally has flowers every single day of the year. It was a rescue score from a friend of my mother's, no idea what species. I think you could keep it anywhere with reasonable light and it would grow and flower. I soak it in leftover tea or nutes diluted every now and again, but otherwise just keep a spray bottle next to it and hit it any time i am admiring. Hit me up if that sounds like something you dig.

 

[jumpincactus]

I used to keep a live reef tank and used a protein skimmer as part of my water quality management system.

You guys will notice that the smaller the bubbles the more foam will be produced. My skimmer had a venturi valve that created very very small bubbles and a huge volume of them. It was very effective with removing DOC's (dissolved organic compounds). With that said, as Cap believes no foam no problem.

The trick is if you don't want a bunch of foam use a bubbler that doesn't create microfine bubbles as this allows the organics to attach to the bubbles. I use just a aquarium air pump with the airline tubing and allow this to bubble up from under my casting sack of goodies and my foam is minimal. But when I used a wooden airstone with microfine bubbles my foam was out of control.

Not a chemist and I would think that based on this theory by throwing out your foam you are also discarding the majority of the beneficials you were trying to create in the first place. Just thinking out loud.

 

[TheSmoker]

im making my first tea ever ( not using caps, for now) and I am getting no foam period.. im getting a bunch of small bubbles but that's about it. from what I have seen in this post, I shouldn't be worried about no foam? its hard not to worry about the foam factor when it seems every ones teas have foam.