tobh goes swimming Dutch style

[Aqua Man]

So given this additional info, it's got me thinking. I'm going to do a change out once I finish up work for the day. They've drank enough to warrant a top off now, and pH has crawled up five points overnight, EC staying the same. Will modify my process slightly. Instead of what I listed above, I plan on doing:

Tap, 9 gallons
Protekt, 45ml (last listing was a typo, apply at 5ml/gal)
[Allow to mix for 30min via venturi pump]
pH down to 6.5
[Allow to mix for 10min via venturi pump]
Front Row AG, part A: 27g
[Allow to mix for 10min via venturi pump]
Front Row AG, part B: 25g
[Allow to mix for 10min via venturi pump]
Hygrozyme: 3oz
[Allow to mix for 10min via venturi pump]
pH down to 5.5
[Wait 30 min, adjust pH further if needed]
Hydroguard: 18ml

While this is going to extend the change out process significantly in terms of time, I'm curious to see if it'll lead to a more stable pH. Can't hurt to give it a shot.

Perfect. I usually do 15 min for silica then ph down 10 min part a then add b and once dissolved i pH down and add hydrogaurd... then pop back in an hour or 2 as water that comes straight from the tap will rise anywhere from a point to 0.4 if no buffer.

 

[tobh]

Perfect. I usually do 15 min for silica then ph down 10 min part a then add b and once dissolved i pH down and add hydrogaurd... then pop back in an hour or 2 as water that comes straight from the tap will rise anywhere from a point to 0.4 if no buffer.

Looking at the label on the protekt, it's 3% soluble potash (k2o) and 7.8% silicon dioxide derived from potassium silicate. That indicates i've had two flaws in my mixing process. The first being probably not letting the silica mix adequately before adding the other nutrients. While I haven't visually witnessed any fall out as a result, it's possible it has been occurring. The second flaw was failing to pH between adding silica and the rest of the nutrients.

This will be interesting to see what happens going forward. Thank you for sharing your wealth of experience and knowledge.

 

[tobh]

Doing the res change out now, and noticed some things. I was concerned about possible mites, and this sure looks like my suspicions are coming to be accurate. I've scoped the leaves (not these ones yet, others though) and haven't seen anything that resembles what online pics look like but this definitely looks like some kind of pest damage.

That being said, best method of dealing with these things? I have neem, and have been told white oil is a great solution for them as well. No Pest strips were recommended to me, but like hell if I'm going to run those in the tent. I care about my health a bit too much for that.

 

[Aqua Man]

Doing the res change out now, and noticed some things. I was concerned about possible mites, and this sure looks like my suspicions are coming to be accurate. I've scoped the leaves (not these ones yet, others though) and haven't seen anything that resembles what online pics look like but this definitely looks like some kind of pest damage.

That being said, best method of dealing with these things? I have neem, and have been told white oil is a great solution for them as well. No Pest strips were recommended to me, but like hell if I'm going to run those in the tent. I care about my health a bit too much for that.

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Looks like they are asking for a touch drier RH. Not that the humidity is bad. I just find that sativas like it more humid end of VPD and indicas like it on the drier side.

 

[tobh]

Looks like they are asking for a touch drier RH. Not that the humidity is bad. I just find that sativas like it more humid end of VPD and indicas like it on the drier side.

Do you think that could be causing this leaf spotting? My humidity is a real bitch. Seriously need to get a dehuey.

I'm now on a hunt for the grand wisdom of Seamaiden... she used to have all the fixes for the bugs back when. My biggest fear is having a serious infestation take hold.

 

[Aqua Man]

Do you think that could be causing this leaf spotting? My humidity is a real bitch. Seriously need to get a dehuey.

I'm now on a hunt for the grand wisdom of Seamaiden... she used to have all the fixes for the bugs back when. My biggest fear is having a serious infestation take hold.

Yeah I cant help with bugs... im definitely not someone to give advice on them. Proper transpiration can cause all sort of issues. Not sure if that would be the cause though

 

[beluga]

Can you get a picture in whiter light?
And undersides?

If it were me, I'd probably do a cursory neem/castile soap wipe down with even the slightest suspicion of anything.

 

[tobh]

Can you get a picture in whiter light?
And undersides?

If it were me, I'd probably do a cursory neem/castile soap wipe down with even the slightest suspicion of anything.

I'll turn off the Last Standing Blurple in the tent, and turn on the flash on my phone. I have some on page 3 I think that show the initial damage with scoped suspects.

I didn't even think about using castile soap as a wetter -- was gonna grab some Bronner's tomorrow. Really need to consider some kind of IPM at this point. Never in nearly two decades of doing this have I ran into this kind of issue.

 

[tobh]

Alright, res change out is done. I don't trust my ppm meter, a new one is on the list of need sooner than later. Max PPM that registered: 806, consistently showed 777, and 755, bouncing between the two. pH 5.5. We'll see what happens over the next 24 hours..

 

[tobh]

2+ hour follow up pH check, had climbed to 5.9. Re-adjusted to 5.5. We'll see what tomorrow brings. @Aqua Man may have come with the infinite wisdom on this one.

Also, I think the leaf issue is likely a calcium def. The two part is supposed to supply this, but it's possible it's not enough. Or, the pH swings were locking it out (highly likely). If the pH swings stabilize with this new change out method, it'll be smooth sailing.

 

[beluga]

I'll turn off the Last Standing Blurple in the tent, and turn on the flash on my phone. I have some on page 3 I think that show the initial damage with scoped suspects.

I didn't even think about using castile soap as a wetter -- was gonna grab some Bronner's tomorrow. Really need to consider some kind of IPM at this point. Never in nearly two decades of doing this have I ran into this kind of issue.

Ah.. I missed the ones posted earlier.
I'd agree that the leaf damage is not from pests.

It's hard to say what those little white specks are, but I would probably play it safe and treat them now.
Peppermint Bronners is a great carrier for oils. I've always just kinda eyeballed the ratio, but you can definitely find recipes around the net.
I've only ever had spider mites inside once and I treated it first by bombing the room with diatomaceous earth and vacuuming up every bit of the plants, and then with a neem/castile treatment. Worked well. Low-suction vacuums are pretty handy when it comes to pests.
Outdoors, I'd get them more often and now just use neem as a preventative all the time... I've not had to deal with them in years and years, thankfully.
Well.. except when the Mrs brings a plant home from a farm or nursery... always just treat those right away.

 

[Aqua Man]

Alright, res change out is done. I don't trust my ppm meter, a new one is on the list of need sooner than later. Max PPM that registered: 806, consistently showed 777, and 755, bouncing between the two. pH 5.5. We'll see what happens over the next 24 hours..

Sometimes ppm meters go whacky when the battery gets low.

 

[tobh]

Sometimes ppm meters go whacky when the battery gets low.

ah didn't think about that. I'll check the battery. Always helpful having a multimeter around for such things.

I'm gonna go pick up some RO. I suspect that the tap has some buffer in it that's influencing the swing. I pulled a water quality report from the utility company and nothing really sticks out, but there's no telling how accurate or current it is. Overnight, pH climbed to 6.7. Something is buffering much harder than the pH down can compete with.

If the issue persists with RO, I'll be re-evaluating running a live res entirely. I know hygrozyme will work with peroxide so that'll be my next move if the swing persists. It seems that once I added the hydroguard, this problem really became an issue. Prior, there was some swing present, but not like this.

If going back to sterile doesn't work, then I'll be looking at a different silica source. Protekt was recommended by multiple people but if the buffering it does can't be controlled without profuse amounts of pH down, then another source will be required.

All that being said, I've decided the leaf damage is being caused by calcium lockout. I believe this is being caused by the crazy pH swings, so the plant doesn't really have time to uptake enough for its requirements. The symptoms line up with early stages -- slight yellowing randomly around the plant, necrotic-like holes in the more affected leaves, slight tip curling. This is likely compounded by running LEDs.

If I fix the pH, I should fix the lockout and be ready for flower in the next week or two.

 

[Aqua Man]

ah didn't think about that. I'll check the battery. Always helpful having a multimeter around for such things.

I'm gonna go pick up some RO. I suspect that the tap has some buffer in it that's influencing the swing. I pulled a water quality report from the utility company and nothing really sticks out, but there's no telling how accurate or current it is. Overnight, pH climbed to 6.7. Something is buffering much harder than the pH down can compete with.

If the issue persists with RO, I'll be re-evaluating running a live res entirely. I know hygrozyme will work with peroxide so that'll be my next move if the swing persists. It seems that once I added the hydroguard, this problem really became an issue. Prior, there was some swing present, but not like this.

If going back to sterile doesn't work, then I'll be looking at a different silica source. Protekt was recommended by multiple people but if the buffering it does can't be controlled without profuse amounts of pH down, then another source will be required.

All that being said, I've decided the leaf damage is being caused by calcium lockout. I believe this is being caused by the crazy pH swings, so the plant doesn't really have time to uptake enough for its requirements. The symptoms line up with early stages -- slight yellowing randomly around the plant, necrotic-like holes in the more affected leaves, slight tip curling. This is likely compounded by running LEDs.

If I fix the pH, I should fix the lockout and be ready for flower in the next week or two.

Are you using citric acid by chance? It reacts with bicarbonate and will off gas as co2 making it extremely poor for use with hydroponics.

 

[tobh]

Are you using citric acid by chance? It reacts with bicarbonate and will off gas as co2 making it extremely poor for use with hydroponics.

I don't believe so. I use GH pH Down, which iirc is phosphoric acid. Citric acid is too unstable (learned that during my coco years), so I've stuck with "real" pH down since those days.

 

[Aqua Man]

I found that 85% food grade phosphoric acid works really well and you save money instead of buying diluted stuff at 2x the cost. Sulfuric is also a decent choice. Nitric and citric are no go... most pH down add some of these last 2 as a filler in a sense.

 

[Aqua Man]

I don't believe so. I use GH pH Down, which iirc is phosphoric acid. Citric acid is too unstable (learned that during my coco years), so I've stuck with "real" pH down since those days.

There could be a lot of carbonic acid in your tap water... have you tried aerating it for 2-3hrs before use?

 

[tobh]

I found that 85% food grade phosphoric acid works really well and you save money instead of buying diluted stuff at 2x the cost. Sulfuric is also a decent choice. Nitric and citric are no go... most pH down add some of these last 2 as a filler in a sense.

I did not realize that. Luckily a gallon of GH pH down was like $12. I'll hit a parts store and pick up some sulfuric acid. It's also super cheap. That's if the RO attempt doesn't change anything.

If all else fails, I'll get ahold of Front Row AG again and ask them wtf is going on.

 

[tobh]

There could be a lot of carbonic acid in your tap water... have you tried aerating it for 2-3hrs before use?

That I have not. I fill up a 3gal bucket, haul it to the res, dump it in, and repeat until at volume.

 

[tobh]

Here's my utility's water report