tobh goes swimming Dutch style

[Aqua Man]

Hardness could be a bit higher. I would try to aerate if ya can. Do a simple test. Im betting about 0.4 of that is carbonic acid in the water supply. Fill a glass with tap and test ph. Then aerate for 2 hrs or let sit for 24hrs and check the ph again.

It could simply be the hardness needs to come up. How much acid are you adding to how much water to emget your desired ph? I'll look up the concentration of the gh ph down. Or post a pick of the back label.

 

[tobh]

Hardness could be a bit higher. I would try to aerate if ya can. Do a simple test. Im betting about 0.4 of that is carbonic acid in the water supply. Fill a glass with tap and test ph. Then aerate for 2 hrs or let sit for 24hrs and check the ph again.

It could simply be the hardness needs to come up. How much acid are you adding to how much water to emget your desired ph? I'll look up the concentration of the gh ph down. Or post a pick of the back label.

Per 9 gallons, I average 40ml pH down to achieve 5.5. Last night was 48ml to get to 5.5. 40ml after adding silica to get to 6.5, another 8ml after all other additions to get to 5.5.

The labeling doesn't include anything but here's a screenshot of the MSDS ingredients list

 

[Aqua Man]

Per 9 gallons, I average 40ml pH down to achieve 5.5. Last night was 48ml to get to 5.5. 40ml after adding silica to get to 6.5, another 8ml after all other additions to get to 5.5.

The labeling doesn't include anything but here's a screenshot of the MSDS ingredients list

View attachment 1068154

Hmmmm your testing ph from the res right? I mean I know as plants take up nitrates the ph will rise but that still seems like a pretty large swing and plenty of acid. So should not be an issue... im kinda stumped but will do some more thinking.

 

[tobh]

Alright, 3gal bucket I use to fill the res at change out filled with 3gal water from the faucet I use. Initial pH of 8.72. Two airstones placed, will check pH again in two hours.

 

[tobh]

Hmmmm your testing ph from the res right? I mean I know as plants take up nitrates the ph will rise but that still seems like a pretty large swing and plenty of acid. So should not be an issue... im kinda stumped but will do some more thinking.

Yes. I take a sample in a clean cup from the flow out of the venturi, which sits in the res, and test the sample.

 

[tobh]

Alright, in my quest to solve this mystery, I found some updated feed charts from Front Row AG. Looks like my ratio for part A and part B are off in addition to everything else that may be playing a role in this. Head math and sloppy weighing bit me, I tell ya what.

Based on the HARD Rockwool Dry GRxGL Feed Chart document located here, if I were running feed at 100% I should be applying:

34.2 grams Part A
22.5 grams Part B

Now, I'm not running at 100%, I'm trying to run closer to 70% - 75%. So, multiplying those numbers by .75 gives:

26.65 grams Part A
16.92 grams Part B

Here's the kicker. What I've been doing is more along the lines of:

28.5 grams Part A
25 grams Part B

If I were feeding on their ratios, which aren't exactly linear ask you scale down from recommendations, I'd be feeding on a ratio of 66% part B to part A. What I've actually been feeding at is closer to 88% part B to part A. Roughly a 20% difference between the recommendations for this stage of growth and what I'm actually doing.

This is food for thought based on further down on the above linked document. Here is what is written so you don't have to go read it for yourself:

FRONT-ROW AG PART-A Delivers highly chelated micro-nutrients, Calcium and Nitrogen at unprecedented solubility & availability at wide pH ranges.

FRONT-ROW AG PART-B Delivers essential concentrations of magnesium and sulfur to ensure optimized photosynthesis, ideal volumes of potassium and phosphorus, combined with surfactants and citric acid evenly distribute fertilize Ions, and ensure unparalleled solubility

Let me know what you think. I'm starting to think this is probably a pretty big contributing factor, and will be corrected in tonight's res change.

 

[Aqua Man]

Alright, in my quest to solve this mystery, I found some updated feed charts from Front Row AG. Looks like my ratio for part A and part B are off in addition to everything else that may be playing a role in this. Head math and sloppy weighing bit me, I tell ya what.

Based on the HARD Rockwool Dry GRxGL Feed Chart document located here, if I were running feed at 100% I should be applying:

34.2 grams Part A
22.5 grams Part B

Now, I'm not running at 100%, I'm trying to run closer to 70% - 75%. So, multiplying those numbers by .75 gives:

26.65 grams Part A
16.92 grams Part B

Here's the kicker. What I've been doing is more along the lines of:

28.5 grams Part A
25 grams Part B

If I were feeding on their ratios, which aren't exactly linear ask you scale down from recommendations, I'd be feeding on a ratio of 66% part B to part A. What I've actually been feeding at is closer to 88% part B to part A. Roughly a 20% difference between the recommendations for this stage of growth and what I'm actually doing.

This is food for thought based on further down on the above linked document. Here is what is written so you don't have to go read it for yourself:

FRONT-ROW AG PART-A Delivers highly chelated micro-nutrients, Calcium and Nitrogen at unprecedented solubility & availability at wide pH ranges.

FRONT-ROW AG PART-B Delivers essential concentrations of magnesium and sulfur to ensure optimized photosynthesis, ideal volumes of potassium and phosphorus, combined with surfactants and citric acid evenly distribute fertilize Ions, and ensure unparalleled solubility

Let me know what you think. I'm starting to think this is probably a pretty big contributing factor, and will be corrected in tonight's res change.

I always says it best to mix nutes at 100% and dilute down if using RO.

 

[tobh]

I always says it best to mix nutes at 100% and dilute down if using RO.

I'm using tap, which we'll have results of the bubbling for a couple hours in about ten minutes. If i can avoid using RO, I'd like to. So, depending on the results of bubbling some water for a couple hours, and mixing the two part at correct ratios, it'll be telling. The ratio thing is by far the easiest to fix right now, so hopefully overnight will be a bit more stable.

 

[Aqua Man]

I'm using tap, which we'll have results of the bubbling for a couple hours in about ten minutes. If i can avoid using RO, I'd like to. So, depending on the results of bubbling some water for a couple hours, and mixing the two part at correct ratios, it'll be telling. The ratio thing is by far the easiest to fix right now, so hopefully overnight will be a bit more stable.

I'm still not certain the ratio would impact the ph swing a whole lot... initial ph yes.

 

[tobh]

Initial pH of 8.72

Bubbling for two hours resulted in a pH of 8.75. Is that indicative of the presence of carbonic acid?

 

[Aqua Man]

Bubbling for two hours resulted in a pH of 8.75. Is that indicative of the presence of carbonic acid?

What did it start as? Oops nvm seen it... nope thats hardly anything

 

[Lynch_Ironside]

Do beneficial bacteria play a roll in ph? Also what's the survivability of the bacteria in a highly alkaline environment?
@Aqua Man had said in a previous post that decolonization of these bacteria by entirely emptying and the refilling will have a huge impact on these colonies and had reccomended doing a 25 percent change at a time to offset total depopulation. Along with this the reccomendations for a sponge filter to help keep bacteria colonized. I'm paraphrasing all of this.
I'm curious about your issue too, hopefully you get it figured out.

 

[Aqua Man]

Do beneficial bacteria play a roll in ph? Also what's the survivability of the bacteria in a highly alkaline environment?
@Aqua Man had said in a previous post that decolonization of these bacteria by entirely emptying and the refilling will have a huge impact on these colonies and had reccomended doing a 25 percent change at a time to offset total depopulation. Along with this the reccomendations for a sponge filter to help keep bacteria colonized. I'm paraphrasing all of this.
I'm curious about your issue too, hopefully you get it figured out.

Wow I'm impressed. What I was referring to is the way we use bacteria is extremely expensive and with a few modifications we can inoculate once and keep the colonies thriving. But for that we need to give them a proper home and be very mindful of water changes ph and temps.

 

[Aqua Man]

Do beneficial bacteria play a roll in ph? Also what's the survivability of the bacteria in a highly alkaline environment?
@Aqua Man had said in a previous post that decolonization of these bacteria by entirely emptying and the refilling will have a huge impact on these colonies and had reccomended doing a 25 percent change at a time to offset total depopulation. Along with this the reccomendations for a sponge filter to help keep bacteria colonized. I'm paraphrasing all of this.
I'm curious about your issue too, hopefully you get it figured out.

To answer your question yes thay absolutely play a role but more so in soil grows. If a pop does off you can see ph dropping and if there is a population boom as increased respiration can result in an increase of carbonic acid and so does decay. Its not common to see this is hydro without some major indicators first.

 

[Lynch_Ironside]

Shit, sorry @Aqua Man I didn't mean to misrepresent what you were trying to say. I guess I'm a bit confused. My take away was the symbiotic relationship between the plants and bacteria is disrupted by full water changes, as a fish tank would be, and by doing fractional changes we could protect this relationship?

 

[Aqua Man]

Shit, sorry @Aqua Man I didn't mean to misrepresent what you were trying to say. I guess I'm a bit confused. My take away was the symbiotic relationship between the plants and bacteria is disrupted by full water changes, as a fish tank would be, and by doing fractional changes we could protect this relationship?

You absolutely right but populations bounce back very fast when re innoculated. Thier reproduction rates increase with temps. By changing only 25% of the water at a time but more frequently we can reduce the frequently of inoculation and completely eliminate it if we provide a good home suck as a sponge filter.

 

[Aqua Man]

Bit you also need to be mindful of water changes and nutrient ratios. As this can have a huge impact on ratios. If you did as much as 50% a week you can pretty much assure that ratios will stay in balance. There is a slot to it so if ya wanna learn more just shoot me a PM. This is all old-school fish keeping info. I spent 20 yr breeding fish, plants and making my own nutrients. There is sooo much that can be transitioned to hydro but ita not all plug n play like most want. It takes time and understanding. So much from aquaponics also.

 

[tobh]

Do beneficial bacteria play a roll in ph? Also what's the survivability of the bacteria in a highly alkaline environment?
@Aqua Man had said in a previous post that decolonization of these bacteria by entirely emptying and the refilling will have a huge impact on these colonies and had reccomended doing a 25 percent change at a time to offset total depopulation. Along with this the reccomendations for a sponge filter to help keep bacteria colonized. I'm paraphrasing all of this.
I'm curious about your issue too, hopefully you get it figured out.

At this point, I'm going through a process of elimination. The root cause will be uncovered, and I don't really feel any risk of losing the plants yet. I just want the plants to be of the best health possible, and to know how to run this system as dialed as possible.

I'm not terribly concerned about completely wiping out the bacterial cultures as I'd be surprised how healthy they're doing with these crazy rapid pH swings. As Aqua Man said, there are cheaper ways to retain those cultures. I'm not sure if they influence the pH at all, but the solution they come in might. Could be a bad batch (expired/bad mix/etc). That'll be determined one way or another though.

Tonight's experiment is just like last nights, changing two things:

- Use RO water instead of tap. This will eliminate any substances in my tap water that may be causing problems.
- Use full strength mix of nutrients at exact ratios per recommendations. This will also indicate if the incorrect ratio was upsetting the buffering of the silica and pH down.

If by tomorrow morning, as was this morning, the pH is back over 6 from 5.5, I'll know it's not my tap or the nutrient ratio. If it stays stable, when it comes to the next change out, I'll switch back to tap and monitor again.

This will confirm which was the root cause, if it was the tap water or the nutrient ratio, or will indicate it's one of the additives.

Worst case, and as a control, what I'll next is a back step to my initial method of running pool shock to keep the res sterile and monitor for swings. That would eliminate two additives that have been introduced over a short time frame and put me back at baseline.

I would then drop the pool shock again, and begin with identifying which of the two additives is at fault by running them individually. Finally, return back to current status quo and test again.

Sure, this process will be wasteful (9 gallons of solution being changed out daily is a shitty process). However it will lead to identifying what the root cause is.

The best part about this is I have so much of it documented now, it's no longer a game of shooting in the dark. I've learned a few things I have done incorrectly, and will continue correct as I proceed on this journey. Worst case, I'm out a bit of water, some nutrients, but will know that it's not base water related, base nutrient related, res and root health related, or silica related.

That leads up to the next set of variables which are environmental, where things get a bit more tricky and much more expensive to manipulate. Fingers crossed it doesn't go that far. Hell, by that point, and so long the plants don't get cooked in all my shenanigans, it'll be time to flower and it'll be closer to dialed in for a great final sprint.

 

[Lynch_Ironside]

At this point, I'm going through a process of elimination. The root cause will be uncovered, and I don't really feel any risk of losing the plants yet. I just want the plants to be of the best health possible, and to know how to run this system as dialed as possible.

I'm not terribly concerned about completely wiping out the bacterial cultures as I'd be surprised how healthy they're doing with these crazy rapid pH swings. As Aqua Man said, there are cheaper ways to retain those cultures. I'm not sure if they influence the pH at all, but the solution they come in might. Could be a bad batch (expired/bad mix/etc). That'll be determined one way or another though.

Tonight's experiment is just like last nights, changing two things:

- Use RO water instead of tap. This will eliminate any substances in my tap water that may be causing problems.
- Use full strength mix of nutrients at exact ratios per recommendations. This will also indicate if the incorrect ratio was upsetting the buffering of the silica and pH down.

If by tomorrow morning, as was this morning, the pH is back over 6 from 5.5, I'll know it's not my tap or the nutrient ratio. If it stays stable, when it comes to the next change out, I'll switch back to tap and monitor again.

This will confirm which was the root cause, if it was the tap water or the nutrient ratio, or will indicate it's one of the additives.

Worst case, and as a control, what I'll next is a back step to my initial method of running pool shock to keep the res sterile and monitor for swings. That would eliminate two additives that have been introduced over a short time frame and put me back at baseline.

I would then drop the pool shock again, and begin with identifying which of the two additives is at fault by running them individually. Finally, return back to current status quo and test again.

Sure, this process will be wasteful (9 gallons of solution being changed out daily is a shitty process). However it will lead to identifying what the root cause is.

The best part about this is I have so much of it documented now, it's no longer a game of shooting in the dark. I've learned a few things I have done incorrectly, and will continue correct as I proceed on this journey. Worst case, I'm out a bit of water, some nutrients, but will know that it's not base water related, base nutrient related, res and root health related, or silica related.

That leads up to the next set of variables which are environmental, where things get a bit more tricky and much more expensive to manipulate. Fingers crossed it doesn't go that far. Hell, by that point, and so long the plants don't get cooked in all my shenanigans, it'll be time to flower and it'll be closer to dialed in for a great final sprint.

Sounds like a solid plan. That's exactly the way I try and look at things, it may cost some nutes and water but the experience and knowledge gained is invaluable. I'm anxious to see what was causing this issue, I'll stay tuned!

 

[tobh]

Tonight's res changeout:

9 Gallons Distilled h2o
Starting ppm: 3
Starting pH: 7.2

Protekt: 45ml, 75ppm, pH 10.45

15ml pH down to 6.5

Part A: 34.2 grams, 568ppm, pH 5.5
Part B: 22.5 grams, 750ppm, pH 5.3

Hygrozyme: 69ml, 750ppm, pH 5.3

Hydroguard: 18ml, 809ppm, pH 5.3

First thing I noticed was a lack of cloudiness upon adding the Protekt. The pH went far higher (was averaging 9.5 with tap), but it also took far less pH down to get it back to desired level. Overall, this res change was the clearest I've seen. No cloudiness or anything like that.

The final pH is a bit low, but it's close enough that I'm not terribly concerned about it. We'll see what the overnight swing does once the first cycle happens. I'll do one more check after it runs and confirm final changeout numbers as any residual in the sites will be homogenized with the fresh solution.

I'm confident but not certain that my tap is the root cause of these problems. The next 18 or so hours will be good confirmation, and if things remain stable, a week from now will validate.