Topping and Training Tech for Yields and Quality

[ttystikk]

Thanks for the kind words, but there are no shortage of people around here who put my knowlege base and experience to shame- give me 20 years, maybe I can grow my way into that label proper, lol

Dig around thru the threads, and see if you can find one about SCROG by LBH. His tutorial thread is really good for showing- with pictures- what spreading the plants out should look like and what it does for your yields. Just because he uses the SCROG method and I tie my plants down shouldn't fool you into thinking the two techniques are completely different, as they are in fact very similar.

One of his tips- which I second wholeheartedly- is to try to encourage four branches off the mainstem, instead of just two. Here's hoping you can coax a couple more outta your girls?

Second, let the size of the plants vs your growing space be your guide as to how much to top and when to flip things into flower. Slower growing indicas like S1 should cover some 70-80% of the growing area at flip, while lankier strains like Diesel only need to be at 50% or so. The first couple weeks after flip is when the girls really stretch, and you'll want to manage the training actively through that period. Once they settle down and start making buds, you'll have the structure you'll finish with.

As far as topping, I've topped a maximum of three times, and what happens is a progressive flattenting of the colas. Top no times, you get a huge spear or a tallish shrub depending on strain. Top once you get a bush. Top twice you get what I have found is the best of all worlds for my own style, nice and broad without a lot of oversized buds hogging the resources, leading to strong, even growth all across the plant. Topping more than that leads to more evenness, but the plant seems to kinda give up a bit and not produce its biggest, strongest buds...

The upshot here is that topping, tying down and training is very much a learning process; you'll get some plants/crops spectacularly right, and others will be disappointments. It's easiest to use one strain at a time for any given crop. Keep working with the same strain so you can get to know its characteristics. Each new strain is its own individual and needs its own learning curve. The best approach is just like LBH says; a combination of topping and tying/Scrog'in to achieve even coverage across the surface area of your grow, AND big fat mouthwatering colas bustin' out all over!

Good luck, and happy practicing!~

 

[lewy]

aha just stating facts ive read the posts u ant stupid,
thankyou a yes ive read loads obout scrog , and thankyou 4 your advice ive have attached sum pics im on week 3 n a bit from planting ( not germination) wat your option of light hieght ive topped them all and also, you know the side shoots off the plant should i top them just a thought nice 1 lew:cool0041:

 

[ttystikk]

aha just stating facts ive read the posts u ant stupid,
thankyou a yes ive read loads obout scrog , and thankyou 4 your advice ive have attached sum pics im on week 3 n a bit from planting ( not germination) wat your option of light hieght ive topped them all and also, you know the side shoots off the plant should i top them just a thought nice 1 lew:cool0041:

Nice girls! Okay, so the first question is what size flowering zone is it gonna be? Are they where they're going to be in flower? If so, I'd think about flipping in the next week or so because they'll all grow together. If you're moving them into a more spread out arrangement, then you'll want to wait a little longer... but not too much, because you don't want them overcrowded.

I see lots of good side branches growing, but right now they're pretty short. Let them get longer. That's how the plant will spread out.

 

[GreenStone]

Nice thread. I employ all of these techniques and much much more. For several years now I've been working on developing this new technique similar to what you describe that I call monsterSCROG'ing.

Pictures say it all, but basically its a mobile, modular extremely large SCROG that is 2'x2' with the first "trellis" set at 9" above the soil, and the second "screen" or "trellis" set at 18" above the soil. Extreme topping and training is employed to the 4 splayed main branches. They flower under a 1000w HPS on a light mover in a 8" Blockbuster hood with a dedicated 440cfm fan. The flower room holds (6) 2'x2' monsterSCROG's in a 4'x6' environmentally controlled room.

Mine have about 40-100 colas that are from 4-12" tall with 9" as a median. I generally pull 4-12 ounces from each plant with about 5-6 zips on average. 4-6 month veg for each plant with extensive LST, and topping as you described here in this thread. You will note in the pic that each monsterSCROG is mobile and sits on a cart. It is also transplanted as a SCROG, you will notice that the 5 gallon pot is split in half. I start the SCROG in the top half of the bucket in veg, drop it on top of the lower half with flower mix and veg for 2-4 more weeks then flower it out.

This strain is Indiana Bubblegum (gixies) and there are about 75 tops. The main canopy never got thicker than 12" and I topped her about 6 times.

Here are a few shots of how the bucket system works. The first "trellis" is just for LST and usually its just a few pieces of string to constrain the lower main branches to its splayed position. I vegetate plants in this little 2.5 gallon with the PVC frame for 2 months before adding the bottom 2.5 gallon of flower mix and veging another 2-4 weeks to fill the top screen or trellis (depending on the strain). For this stain I used a SCROG screen with 2.5 inch spacing or 64 spaces in a 2'x2' screen. For indicas I just use a trellis with 5" spacing in the trellis.

 

[Capulator]

Looking forward to your pics, brother!

ScrOG, or Screen o' Green, is an entirely compatible approach to taking maximum advantage of indoor lighting. The only reason I don't use it is because of the interval production approach I'm testing, which is to move plants from one environment optimized for their current needs to another as they grow, and I haven't figured out how to efficiently move the screen with the plant.

If the experiment doesn't work out, I'll happily do SCROG, cuz it's less work for the same results!

Put the whole thing on casters.

EDIT... LIKE THAT^^

 

[Capulator]

Nice thread. I employ all of these techniques and much much more. For several years now I've been working on developing this new technique similar to what you describe that I call monsterSCROG'ing.

Pictures say it all, but basically its a mobile, modular extremely large SCROG that is 2'x2' with the first "trellis" set at 9" above the soil, and the second "screen" or "trellis" set at 18" above the soil. Extreme topping and training is employed to the 4 splayed main branches. They flower under a 1000w HPS on a light mover in a 8" Blockbuster hood with a dedicated 440cfm fan. The flower room holds (6) 2'x2' monsterSCROG's in a 4'x6' environmentally controlled room.

Mine have about 40-100 colas that are from 4-12" tall with 9" as a median. I generally pull 4-12 ounces from each plant with about 5-6 zips on average. 4-6 month veg for each plant with extensive LST, and topping as you described here in this thread. You will note in the pic that each monsterSCROG is mobile and sits on a cart. It is also transplanted as a SCROG, you will notice that the 5 gallon pot is split in half. I start the SCROG in the top half of the bucket in veg, drop it on top of the lower half with flower mix and veg for 2-4 more weeks then flower it out.

This strain is Indiana Bubblegum (gixies) and there are about 75 tops. The main canopy never got thicker than 12" and I topped her about 6 times.

View attachment 176875

View attachment 176876

View attachment 176877

View attachment 176878

Here are a few shots of how the bucket system works. The first "trellis" is just for LST and usually its just a few pieces of string to constrain the lower main branches to its splayed position. I vegetate plants in this little 2.5 gallon with the PVC frame for 2 months before adding the bottom 2.5 gallon of flower mix and veging another 2-4 weeks to fill the top screen or trellis (depending on the strain). For this stain I used a SCROG screen with 2.5 inch spacing or 64 spaces in a 2'x2' screen. For indicas I just use a trellis with 5" spacing in the trellis.

View attachment 176879

View attachment 176880

View attachment 176881

Thats one hell of a veg time GS, but I like the training method. I use a single trellis. I over grow my plant in veg, with one FIMM at around 6", then when I move them in to flower, I tie all the leaders down. This forces lower growth up and in to the canopy. Then for the next 3 weeks or so of stretch, I guide the branches to fill the canopy, and remove the lower branches that arent getting any light/cant stretch enough to make it. VEG: max 3 weeks. Granted this is in hydro, and not soil, but you could do the same with soil if you had 2 rooms and planned ahead. 20-24 oz or so per sq meter with this method (and the right strian) This picture is sour kush (DNA headband).

What I meant tystik about my nuff said post was that if all the tops are getting hit with maximum amount equal light, you will get great yields. That is why scrog is so great, or SOG, or trellised plants, or LST, or defoliating at the right time. You need to open up the plant so as many budsites as possible are exposed to as much light as possible (WITHOUT BURNING).

I have a vert grow going right now with one plant that is surrounded by 4, 1k's. No training necessary. Only some defoliating. Right now those plants are 6' tall and 4' wide, and covered in light. Hoping for 3 lb off one plant, but will probably get 1 or 2 since this is my first time with this method.

 

[ttystikk]

Now that's why I started this thread!

That two level SCROG setup is awesome- I'm going to do some homework with that and see how I can incorporate it into my own work.

Cap- I couldn't just put it on casters because A. I run RDWC and can't disconnect the buckets, and B. running a whole stage on a cart wouldn't fit through the doors.

The way I move the girls from one space to another is to grow them in 8" net bucket lids, and drill holes around the edges to tie string through that then ties down the main branches. This way, everything is self contained and attached to the bucket lid and moves easily with it.

 

[GreenStone]

Capulator... yeah buddy! VERY NICE! Now thats how its done. I'm in supersoil and I am so impressed with the results I am getting that Hydro fell off the radar. I'm sure if I went with coco and a top drip I could easily pull 12-20 zips from each 4 sq.ft. monsterSCROG. That would be amazing (for me). But way, way too much bud! ;)

ttystikk... I'll take a pic of just the pvc tiered trellis system so you can see how its all assembled together. It is indeed a wicked design that I've come up with. Please feel free to use and/or improve upon anything.

The monsterSCROG I made fits through my veg and flower room doorways (which are standard door sizes). I specifically designed the screen size for that reason.

The whole pvc trellis setup should fit easily around the outside of your RWDC bucket and serve as a perfect holder for the screen (or screens if you try the tiered trellis setup).

 

[ProdigyGrower]

I just pulled over 12 zips on my the white x Appalachia aka lucky charms from using these types of techniques they deff work.

 

[ttystikk]

Trellis Engineering

ttystikk... I'll take a pic of just the pvc tiered trellis system so you can see how its all assembled together. It is indeed a wicked design that I've come up with. Please feel free to use and/or improve upon anything.

The monsterSCROG I made fits through my veg and flower room doorways (which are standard door sizes). I specifically designed the screen size for that reason.

The whole pvc trellis setup should fit easily around the outside of your RWDC bucket and serve as a perfect holder for the screen (or screens if you try the tiered trellis setup).

I built my system- at least as currently configured- so that I can move each stage of girls from one custom designed environment to another every 2 weeks, first through veg, and then through flower. I did it this way to maximize energy and space efficiency, and to ensure that lighting, temperature, humidity and the nutrient/additive package are all ideal for that specific 2 weeks in the plant's lifecycle.

As I mentioned before, my girls are all in 8" net bucket lids, with small holes drilled around the rim to accomodate the twine I use to tie down the plants. I use vine clips so the string doesn't damage stems and so they're easy to adjust. This way, when I need to move the plant I grab the netpot lid, and everything comes along as one easy to carry unit. This makes what otherwise would be a big job of moving plants trivially simple. Pick them up from one RDWC bucket and plunk them down in the next, done.

724530 8" MESH POT/ BUCKET LID:


The reason I'm interested in the trellis is because fiddling with the strings and vine clips is a tedious process and so if it can be streamlined, I have that much more free time! My only issue with adopting your design, Greenstone, is that the trellis as you've designed it would not travel well from one stage to the next. If I (we?) can figure out how to make it a structurally integrated part of the bucket lid, then I will do it ASAP!

One idea I had was to use a modified version of a 'spirit catcher' style weaving. What I have in mind is a circle of stiff wire or some such perhaps two feet in diameter, with enough weaving inside to form the screen for SCROGging the plants. I can even imagine one that could be adjustable, so as to grow with the plant's needs. However, I'm still struggling with how to structurally attach it to the bucket lid. I can't depend on the plant itself to hold things in place, as they grow in hydroton rocks in the netpot and so they don't stand up well by themselves.

 

[Capulator]

I built my system- at least as currently configured- so that I can move each stage of girls from one custom designed environment to another every 2 weeks, first through veg, and then through flower. I did it this way to maximize energy and space efficiency, and to ensure that lighting, temperature, humidity and the nutrient/additive package are all ideal for that specific 2 weeks in the plant's lifecycle.

As I mentioned before, my girls are all in 8" net bucket lids, with small holes drilled around the rim to accomodate the twine I use to tie down the plants. I use vine clips so the string doesn't damage stems and so they're easy to adjust. This way, when I need to move the plant I grab the netpot lid, and everything comes along as one easy to carry unit. This makes what otherwise would be a big job of moving plants trivially simple. Pick them up from one RDWC bucket and plunk them down in the next, done.

724530 8" MESH POT/ BUCKET LID:


The reason I'm interested in the trellis is because fiddling with the strings and vine clips is a tedious process and so if it can be streamlined, I have that much more free time! My only issue with adopting your design, Greenstone, is that the trellis as you've designed it would not travel well from one stage to the next. If I (we?) can figure out how to make it a structurally integrated part of the bucket lid, then I will do it ASAP!

One idea I had was to use a modified version of a 'spirit catcher' style weaving. What I have in mind is a circle of stiff wire or some such perhaps two feet in diameter, with enough weaving inside to form the screen for SCROGging the plants. I can even imagine one that could be adjustable, so as to grow with the plant's needs. However, I'm still struggling with how to structurally attach it to the bucket lid. I can't depend on the plant itself to hold things in place, as they grow in hydroton rocks in the netpot and so they don't stand up well by themselves.

If you use simple chicken wire and zip tie a cylinder of it to the net pot it will be very sturdy. You coudl tie down to that, and you coudl zip tie a cut square sheet of sturdy screen material (steel reinforcement for driveways maybe) when you move to the next step. Then you can add anotehr layer at teh next step,, except bigger... etc...

 

[ttystikk]

upside down 'tophat' of wire?

If you use simple chicken wire and zip tie a cylinder of it to the net pot it will be very sturdy. You coudl tie down to that, and you could zip tie a cut square sheet of sturdy screen material (steel reinforcement for driveways maybe) when you move to the next step. Then you can add another layer at the next step,, except bigger... etc...

I think I like your idea, a lot. They do sell circular mats of wire, don't they? The corners tend to catch on things. I wouldn't go so far as to do several layers, just one would be enough.

Much of the reason I'd be doing it is to train me(!) to keep everything at a consistent height so as to effectively optimize the all-important plant to light distance.

As you've no doubt gathered, I'm working a production line approach so that I don't have too much work to do at any given time, nor do I have long waits between crops.

There is one more benefit to this, and that is to remove as many variables from the sytem as possible. That's important because when I start testing my light rotator I can focus on only that variable, and when people ask what else I changed, I can truly say 'nothing!'

 

[GreenStone]

tystik, you could use pvc frame mounting a couple pieces of pvc on the bucket lid with an adhesive (like liquid nails) to connect the pvc trellis frame to, or you could cut holes in the bucket lids like I do. Make the bottom support piece different so it doesnt interfere with the net pot.

The top half of this bucket is sitting on a bucket lid turned up side down with four holes cut into it. Basically the bucket has no bottom, its just a skin with an upside down lid as the bottom. It improves drainage solves a ton of other problems.

 

[GreenStone]

With my initial design I attached the trellis to the outside of the 5 gallon bucket by cutting notches in the pvc and putting a cotter pin through each leg to connect it to the bucket. I dont have any pix of that though.

I just wanted to post a few more pix of the system im still designing and testing. Im not trying to hyjack your thread, I just thought that you might benefit from a few of these pix.

Here is a pick of a transplant I did today. I just pull the plant from the 1 gallon pot and drop her right into the top half of the bucket system. It fits in absolutely perfectly, its just a simple filling in of the space around it with fresh veg mix and Im done. Note I also do my transplanting in huge plastic concrete mixing bins. God I love these things.

Oh, the strain is the new CannaVenture Purple Berry BX. She has been topped 3 times and she has been in veg for about 3 months now. She still has about 2 more months to go; one month in the 2.5 gal, then another 2-4 weeks in the 5 gallon (with the bottom half attached).

Tomorrow I will post a pic of her with the tiered trellis in place.
~Doc

 

[ttystikk]

It's not a thread jack if you're spot on da topic!

With my initial design I attached the trellis to the outside of the 5 gallon bucket by cutting notches in the pvc and putting a cotter pin through each leg to connect it to the bucket. I dont have any pix of that though.

I just wanted to post a few more pix of the system im still designing and testing. Im not trying to hyjack your thread, I just thought that you might benefit from a few of these pix.

Here is a pick of a transplant I did today. I just pull the plant from the 1 gallon pot and drop her right into the top half of the bucket system. It fits in absolutely perfectly, its just a simple filling in of the space around it with fresh veg mix and Im done. Note I also do my transplanting in huge plastic concrete mixing bins. God I love these things.

Oh, the strain is the new CannaVenture Purple Berry BX. She has been topped 3 times and she has been in veg for about 3 months now. She still has about 2 more months to go; one month in the 2.5 gal, then another 2-4 weeks in the 5 gallon (with the bottom half attached).

Tomorrow I will post a pic of her with the tiered trellis in place.
~Doc

Good info here, brother.

I may have confused you a bit with terminology; there are specific pots out there where the center is a net pot, and the top is wide enough to cover a 5 gallon bucket. They come in various sizes from 6" dia. pots up to 10". I chose 8" cuz it seemed right for me and standardized on it.

I'm with Cap on your veg time; 5 months? That's longer than my girls take to go from fresh cut all the way through harvest! I know its not a necessary evil of soil grows because I have plenty of experience in soil. The plant you're replanting in the pic looks a little nutrient burned, the tips are yellow and brown like it's getting too much of a good thing. Do you reuse your soil? Do you flush regularly?

Since I'm growing in RDWC- recirculating deep water culture- using 5 gallon buckets with 1" bulkheads and tubing throughout, of course I can't have any leaks from the bottom of my bucket. Now, since the net bucket lid sits on top of the 5 gallon bucket like, well, a lid, that's where I want to attach my SCROG frame.

One of the reasons I liked Cap's sketch was that I could use twist ties instead of zip-ties to hold the wire bits together and to the net bucket lid, which makes everything structurally sound and yet also allows for easy disassembly at harvest time. Another is cost; I'm betting a roll of wire fencing and a source for the round wire tops is going to be a lot cheaper than all the PVC you're using.

Don't get me wrong; I think the system you have is a good one, and clearly it works very well. It fits the criteria I'm looking for in terms of ease of use and repeatability. The trouble is since I'm working with more sites, the cost becomes a big issue for me.

 

[Capulator]

on the idea I threw out there...

I would get those cheapie bamboo sticks/stakes or 1/2" pvc with holes drilled for the zip tie to pass through and reinforce the chicken wire with 4 stakes/sticks zip tied to the cylinder. Then, you could cut a nice hole in one section to access the base of the plant. This would totally work. Cheap. reusable. Only thing you would have to replace is the zip ties. You coudl tie all your leaders to the outside of the chix wire instead of the top of the net pot, and then when they get taller, top em with the screen, and move em out. Train them again, throw em in flower...

and boom goes the dynamite.:mad0233:

 

[ttystikk]

Get Baaack, Da Fuse Is LIT!!!

on the idea I threw out there...

I would get those cheapie bamboo sticks/stakes or 1/2" pvc with holes drilled for the zip tie to pass through and reinforce the chicken wire with 4 stakes/sticks zip tied to the cylinder. Then, you could cut a nice hole in one section to access the base of the plant. This would totally work. Cheap. reusable. Only thing you would have to replace is the zip ties. You coudl tie all your leaders to the outside of the chix wire instead of the top of the net pot, and then when they get taller, top em with the screen, and move em out. Train them again, throw em in flower...

and boom goes the dynamite.:mad0233:

The wire I'm thinking about using is actually the stuff you get in rolls of fence material; the openings are big enough to stick your hand through, the wire is large enough diameter so as not to cut the stems, and it's plenty stiff enough to stand on its own without additional support.

I have already drilled 4 holes in the edges of each net bucket lid, so I'd use that as a working diameter for the vertical cylinder. Using twist ties, or zips, either one, would provide enough stability to hold it all together.

>>>reaching into the hat<<< watch for Mr. Rabbit

:icon_animal26:

 

[Capulator]

The wire I'm thinking about using is actually the stuff you get in rolls of fence material; the openings are big enough to stick your hand through, the wire is large enough diameter so as not to cut the stems, and it's plenty stiff enough to stand on its own without additional support.

I have already drilled 4 holes in the edges of each net bucket lid, so I'd use that as a working diameter for the vertical cylinder. Using twist ties, or zips, either one, would provide enough stability to hold it all together.

>>>reaching into the hat<<< watch for Mr. Rabbit

:icon_animal26:

even better. I used 6" galvanized animal fencing on my MPB's and it is sturdy and works great. Nice and comfy to reach through wherever you want.

 

[Capulator]

twist ties are a little weak, but the coated garden wire will work perfect, and is REUSABLE.

 

[ttystikk]

twist ties are a little weak, but the coated garden wire will work perfect, and is REUSABLE.

I'll check that out.