Topping and Training Tech for Yields and Quality

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UKgrow

UKgrow

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Hi, what an interesting thread. Very informative and helpful. After reading your tips I am applying your technique to one of my girls. I have photos below. It is a Big Buddah Blue Cheese, vegging in an 11.5 liter pot, It has been topped, the stems wired out and topped again once they reached 6". It is 15" high, and a canopy diameter of 14". In the pic most of the stems are held down by wires, I am going for the eight main stems like you recommend. The other plant I'm trying a slightly different technique. It is a Barney's Farm Liberty Haze, This girl has been tied down from an early age and is 11" high but with a canopy of 24" by 16". All stems have been tied down and topped at around 6-8"'s only yesterday. It's looking lush but I'm just experimenting. Thanks for your thread and invaluable tips.
 
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ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
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Hi, what an interesting thread. Very informative and helpful. After reading your tips I am applying your technique to one of my girls. I have photos below. It is a Big Buddah Blue Cheese, vegging in an 11.5 liter pot, It has been topped, the stems wired out and topped again once they reached 6". It is 15" high, and a canopy diameter of 14". In the pic most of the stems are held down by wires, I am going for the eight main stems like you recommend. The other plant I'm trying a slightly different technique. It is a Barney's Farm Liberty Haze, This girl has been tied down from an early age and is 11" high but with a canopy of 24" by 16". All stems have been tied down and topped at around 6-8"'s only yesterday. It's looking lush but I'm just experimenting. Thanks for your thread and invaluable tips.

I went for four side branches off the amin stem, but as long as they grow evenly and provide good coverage I don't think it matters. From the pics, your girls are doing great! Glad I can help out, and keep them pics a' comin'!
 
JaySin420

JaySin420

36
18
I didn't see anyone ask about root size limiting the amount of tops that can reach the plants genetic maximum? More green up top needs more root down low.....or the trade off would be smaller buds with same grams per plant.
 
squiggly

squiggly

3,277
263
I didn't see anyone ask about root size limiting the amount of tops that can reach the plants genetic maximum? More green up top needs more root down low.....or the trade off would be smaller buds with same grams per plant.


It's not as clear cut as this--but yes this is a consideration worth noting.

The roots are not a plants only source of energy. At a given point in it's life, it's true that total weight output will be limited by root mass--but this is not the only thing which plays into this. The plant also has energy and nutrient stores which it can utilize, the state of those stores will also play a role depending on where you are in the life cycle.

There will always be a limiting effect from the roots, but the size of it will vary based on other factors. It may even be possible to nix it out--if we had a perfect set of information on what the plant wants and when. Of course we don't have such a set of info, and it would be mind-spinningly complex if we did--however, not being able to elucidate a proper set of conditions to see such an effect does not mean one doesn't exist.

In practice, though--this is a great question. I'm curious to hear everyone's answers.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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I didn't see anyone ask about root size limiting the amount of tops that can reach the plants genetic maximum? More green up top needs more root down low.....or the trade off would be smaller buds with same grams per plant.

From a more mechanical standpoint, remember that different growing methods have a drastic effect on a plant's ability to adequate supply itself with water and nutrients. A plant- any plant- will need a much larger root ball in poor soil than in rich soil, for obvious reasons. Taking this to its logical conclusion, if you're in hydro where the plant gets everything it wants for the asking, it may not need much of a rootball because it's already getting all it needs! Remember that nearly all plant structures cost the plant energy to grow and maintain. Roots are no different, so the plant won't grow any more than it needs to meet its requirements.

If you're concerned about a small root mass, add some phosphorus to your nute mix- without going overboard or running your over EC/ppm too high... This will help encourage root growth- and later on in bud phase, it helps push flowers as well.
 
jyip

jyip

807
93
Dig around thru the threads, and see if you can find one about SCROG by LBH.
i had seen LBH'sscrog thread, great pics n directives, same principles tho,,,, i do the same here, but diferently, i LST, i never cut my plants feeling that they get wounded needlessly, I only bend the tips and tie back, i tie the main top back, then i target the next branch that tries to take over and so on till 12/12 begins and then the pace picks over the stretch somewhat depending on what strain ur growing. i gro i hydro witha 1k hps over a 4x4 ebb n flo table ona a 40 gal rez, canna nutes, nothing fancy and run around 20 plts yeilding 700-900 grams dry bud a tray. i hava small gro area, 9x6x7 tall roughly 450 sq ft sealed room. 4 year bulbs, i csn identify cuz i just changed an old one last week, read up on it, when bulbs wear out, the blue n green spectrums go first and the red stays till the end , that raises room heat cuz of infared rays and the the red alone gro like shit, after i put new bulb in,boom! they took off and all the minature leaves n growth took full size and from clones with tiny nubs 3 weeks back to 8-10 in tall and ten inch wide, tons of low branches, too may to count, really, bubble gum, hindu kush i am running, and just put 5 red columbian ruby red's in the pebbles, hoping to flip in 2 weeks n bam, bud time coming...



great info n thread

i think each way we gro has its strong points whether sea of gren w/quick turnover n growth being the idea, or lo plt #'s w/scrog or however u shape em up,, i think u said it takes hands on experience n u learn as u go n gro is how it happens, and one change at a time is best to see what happens
pEACE
jay
 
jyip

jyip

807
93
i had seen LBH'sscrog thread, great pics n directives, same principles tho,,,, i do the same here, but diferently, i LST, i never cut my plants feeling that they get wounded needlessly, I only bend the tips and tie back, i tie the main top back, then i target the next branch that tries to take over and so on till 12/12 begins and then the pace picks over the stretch somewhat depending on what strain ur growing. i gro i hydro witha 1k hps over a 4x4 ebb n flo table ona a 40 gal rez, canna nutes, nothing fancy and run around 20 plts yeilding 700-900 grams dry bud a tray. i hava small gro area, 9x6x7 tall roughly 450 sq ft sealed room. 4 year bulbs, i csn identify cuz i just changed an old one last week, read up on it, when bulbs wear out, the blue n green spectrums go first and the red stays till the end , that raises room heat cuz of infared rays and the the red alone gro like shit, after i put new bulb in,boom! they took off and all the minature leaves n growth took full size and from clones with tiny nubs 3 weeks back to 8-10 in tall and ten inch wide, tons of low branches, too may to count, really, bubble gum, hindu kush i am running, and just put 5 red columbian ruby red's in the pebbles, hoping to flip in 2 weeks n bam, bud time coming...



great info n thread

i think each way we gro has its strong points whether sea of gren w/quick turnover n growth being the idea, or lo plt #'s w/scrog or however u shape em up,, i think u said it takes hands on experience n u learn as u go n gro is how it happens, and one change at a time is best to see what happens
pEACE
jay
LBH is in rhode island threadsif ya wanna see
 
GanjaAL

GanjaAL

865
63
My question about LBH's technique is... what if you have an 8' lid? I want to maximize growth without throwing this technique out the window. When all is said and done with pots and light height... I will have 3.5' to grow in... so my quetion is... do I fill the screen and then flip so I can get three feet of growth, wait until it is 1/3 filled and then flip to account for the stretch or do I wait like some have said with certain og's and wait until the screen is 3/4 full then flip????
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
My question about LBH's technique is... what if you have an 8' lid? I want to maximize growth without throwing this technique out the window. When all is said and done with pots and light height... I will have 3.5' to grow in... so my quetion is... do I fill the screen and then flip so I can get three feet of growth, wait until it is 1/3 filled and then flip to account for the stretch or do I wait like some have said with certain og's and wait until the screen is 3/4 full then flip????

I didn't see anything in the RI threads that seemed relevant to this conversation- I'm sure I must've missed something. Can anyone post a link?

Here's the potential error in your thinking, GanjaAl; only outdoors does it make sense to grow tall plants. This is because sunlight, at least by the time it reaches Earth, doesn't attentuate or weaken between the top and bottom of a plant- or the top and bottom of a mountain, for that matter.

Indoors, it's a whole different ballgame, where the optimal distance horizon beween too close and too far from a bulb is measured in inches, not yards. Therefore, not only is it possible to have indoor plants that are less than 3 feet tall, it's all but essential if you want decent yields and quality.

Specifically; light saturation levels are achieved at a distance of 18-24" from a 1000w bulb. Closer than that and the plant is merely shading itself out rather than gaining more energy. Likewise, as soon as that distance is doubled, the light intensity has dropped off by a factor of four! This is how the inverse square law of light intensity works:

Light Intensity = 1/(Distance)^2

Practically then, you want your plants to be trained into a basically horizontal regime, where the ENTIRE growth surface area, including leaves and buds, is kept within this horizon. In fact, in order to push this concept to its ultimate logical conclusion, the optimal working thickness of a plant once it's grown a stem and is able to be trained, is... zero.

The point of topping and training plants is to keep them within this optimal lighting zone, and the flatter the plant is from top to bottom, the better. I aim for a plant's working thickness- not including the mainstem and meristems for support- to be no more than 15" from top to bottom, and ideally about a foot or so. This is the whole point of SCRoG, LST, Sea of Green, etc.

If this sounds to you like I'm training my plants to look like some kind of green flying saucer on stilts, then you've got the visual exactly right.
 
jyip

jyip

807
93
again, cool thread, i just realized that i kinda shape the whole at a time, moving plants, bending tips down, tieing this way n that to get the even canopy,,, here's pic of my last tray to show the end results, this was from a few years back from last one i did...sh#t, i can't load picture now, gotta try later, tho i think its in my stuff here whereever pics go when u save them to your profile, either way, lotsa cool info, and its nice to know that I'm going in right direction ..pEACE
 
jyip

jyip

807
93
I didn't see anything in the RI threads that seemed relevant to this conversation- I'm sure I must've missed something. Can anyone post a link?

quote]

i will find and post the link for u later Tystick,,,, as well as the picture of my tray to show mine too

jyip Farmer
again, cool thread, i just realized that i kinda shape the whole at a time, moving plants, bending tips down, tieing this way n that to get the even canopy​

by whole thing, i meant the 4 x 4 ft tray i use
pEACE
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
You can find 'vine clips', they're like $10 for a bag of 100, and they're reusable and snap together easily. Very handy for this kind of work. You can drill holes around the top edges of your pots or buckets, run some string through it, and then tie the string off to vine clips. Because the vine clips open and close easily, they are da bomb for making adjustments quickly!
 
GanjaAL

GanjaAL

865
63
Hey brother.... so since I am using 6- 15 gallon magic pots (fabric pots) with a 75/25 chow mix, the grow screen being 6' x 9' and using 3- 1k bulbs in adjust a wings with 16" space between wings and then 25.5" away from that walls.... what max height would you suggest? The manufacture suggests 3' plus plants for max potential as the wings are able to reflect a good amount of light. OGR wife and Skywalker OG are what I will be a planting. Thanks for the insight. Just want to get this grow on and do it right with input from some of the more experienced growers. I am very much a noob at this. Reading every chance I get.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Hey brother.... so since I am using 6- 15 gallon magic pots (fabric pots) with a 75/25 chow mix, the grow screen being 6' x 9' and using 3- 1k bulbs in adjust a wings with 16" space between wings and then 25.5" away from that walls.... what max height would you suggest? The manufacture suggests 3' plus plants for max potential as the wings are able to reflect a good amount of light. OGR wife and Skywalker OG are what I will be a planting. Thanks for the insight. Just want to get this grow on and do it right with input from some of the more experienced growers. I am very much a noob at this. Reading every chance I get.

Your a-wings are gonna be some bright and hot units, so start with them 3' above your girls' tops, and then carefully let them down a little over several days to allow the girls to harden off to the intensity. Since they're stationary, you're not going to want to get them much closer than 24-30" anyway. Run a good fan across the tops of the plants, and if the hood swings a bit that's fine too.

You might scope my thread on my DIY light rotator; that's the SHIZZNIT for running an A-wing closer to your girls! Built my own light rotator- wanna see?
 
GanjaAL

GanjaAL

865
63
Thanks brother... I have a totall of 8 fans that will be running and a 2 ton mini split. So I am going to have to go with the max height of my tops at no more than 2.5' which should give me a decent compromise. Thanks again brother. Headed to watch the fights and will check your thread out later on tonight. Thank you again for your input.
 
jyip

jyip

807
93
I didn't see anyone ask about root size limiting the amount of tops that can reach the plants genetic maximum? More green up top needs more root down low.....or the trade off would be smaller buds with same grams per plant.
i think roots hav a bigger play in it all too, i always have afew plts on my tray tat do better than the others, abd they all have abetter root mass, still havent pegged why this happens tho

i finally figures out the pics here,,duhh,,,i nevr topped these, i alway get supper bushy plts, idk why tho, i tie em and shape thruout stretch and shape em to max bud production


505
 
Toker Ace

Toker Ace

158
28
Great thread Ty. I didn't see CCOB mentioned. Crop Circle of Buds. Start by transplanting into the final pot with the stem almost horizontal and the rootball close to one side. You are angling the stem to make it easy to start bending in a circle around the container. Don't top until it makes it all the way around. I use the green landscaping wire to get it started and then use a chunk of fence bent into a circle to tie the stem to. I have always done Scrog but the screen is a PITA. I grow in individual buckets so the screen makes changing buckets out a challenge. I use the "blids" as well. I drill holes in the lid for the airlines (2/bucket) so I can pick everything up out of the old bucket and slide another one underneath. I use the 6"ones but just because that's what the store had. On a side note: as an experiment I ran a clone in a 3" net pot with hydroton next to one in a 6" blid with hydroton. The roots blasted out of the smaller netpot way faster but later in life the lack of stability doomed my plant. Fun times. I'll post a pic of my CCOB
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Great thread Ty. I didn't see CCOB mentioned. Crop Circle of Buds. Start by transplanting into the final pot with the stem almost horizontal and the rootball close to one side. You are angling the stem to make it easy to start bending in a circle around the container. Don't top until it makes it all the way around. I use the green landscaping wire to get it started and then use a chunk of fence bent into a circle to tie the stem to. I have always done Scrog but the screen is a PITA. I grow in individual buckets so the screen makes changing buckets out a challenge. I use the "blids" as well. I drill holes in the lid for the airlines (2/bucket) so I can pick everything up out of the old bucket and slide another one underneath. I use the 6"ones but just because that's what the store had. On a side note: as an experiment I ran a clone in a 3" net pot with hydroton next to one in a 6" blid with hydroton. The roots blasted out of the smaller netpot way faster but later in life the lack of stability doomed my plant. Fun times. I'll post a pic of my CCOB

Yes, I've seen these- there's a cool link to a webpage that shows detailed pictures of this technique somewhere around the Fram. I opted for the system I described because I was going for a certain area of coverage and that was the most efficient method I'd seen.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
I saw this in another thread, and felt it was germaine to the current topic:


BTW - just posted an article at

Covers natural ways of controlling stretch. It's a work in progress and I'll add more shortly to it. We're doing some research with cytokinins to see how they reduce stretch. Any feedback (good and bad) I'd be more than happy to hear. We're SEO optimizing the site now so the link may change. If this happens just go to www.manicbotanix.com and you'll find it in the articles on the site. Here's an excerpt that goes through natural ways of controlling plant height and minimizing stretch. I'll be adding a bit more to this soon.

Reducing Stretch Naturally

Various factors such as plant hormones, light, carbon acquisition, and nutrients influence the amount of stretch (apical dominance) a plant will exhibit during its life cycle. Because of this, stretch can be reduced if the right practices are implemented in the grow room.


SCROG (Screen of Green)

Scrog is a term used in the indoor growing of cannabis. The plants grow up to the screen and then are "trained" or tied to the screen, resulting in a flat table of plant growth. Through this means plants can be trained/tied out to remain shorter than they normally would grow. Another advantage to scrogging is because all the buds are growing at about the same height, it is possible to get all the growth within the effective circle of light from the lamp, resulting in increasing yields within a given space.


Tipping/Topping


Apical dominance (stretch) is caused by the apical bud (top shoot of the plant) producing IAA (auxin) in abundance.

When the apical bud is removed, the source of IAA is removed. Since the auxin concentration is much lower, the lateral buds (side shoots) are stimulated to grow. Thus, decapitating (pruning) the top of the plant will cause it to branch, reducing upward growth.

Due to this tipping/topping is a good technique, along with scrogging to control plant height.


Flipping Times and Understanding the Genetics You Work With

This is a tricky one as different people will use different techniques of growing. Some people will grow small plants in numbers while others will grow just one large plant etc. Also, different plants (genetics) will do different things. One type of plant may be very explosive and another type may not have the same vigor. One strain may be far leggier than another. Getting to know your strain will help you fine-tune the finishing height.

As a rule of thumb - the plant does 80% of its growing during the 12 hr light cycle. So be wary. Don’t think that you have to grow a plant in the 18-hour light cycle for too long. As a general rule if you switch down an 8 - 10inch plant you will finish with a 2 1/2 to 3-foot plant.

Know your plant and flip at the appropriate time!

Genetics! Genetics! Genetics!

Genetics play a major role in plant characteristics. In very simple terms, sativas are a much ‘leggier’ plant than indicas and hence indicas, or indica dominant indica/sativa crosses are better suited to indoor growing environments.

Lighting

The light energy required by plants is confined almost entirely to the visible spectrum of light (400nm – 700nm). While there are key points within this spectrum (435nm and 675nm etc), growth is optimized under the entire range of the spectrum. This is because different color wavelengths stimulate different biochemical reactions within the plant. As a result of this, different physiological functions are activated and energized, which – in turn – determine plant growth rates and formation characteristics.

Photosynthesis depends on the energy created by a combination of both light intensity and color.

Growers who have experimented with different lighting combinations can/will tell you that different lighting configurations can produce very different results. For instance, plants that are flowered under a combination of red spectrum (HPS) and blue spectrum (MH) lighting form very differently than plants that are flowered under red spectrum light alone.

For instance, a plant that is flowered under HPS light alone typically ‘stretches’ (becomes unnaturally elongated). This is because, while HPS provides large amounts of yellow and red light it tends to be lacking in other key areas of the visible color spectrum. This means that the required stimulus for the various biochemical responses is not adequate.


By introducing blue spectrum light into the red spectrum we are able to cater more adequately for these biochemical responses. In short, blue spectrum light promotes a better plant structure (shorter/stockier plant, smaller gaps between nodes) while the red spectrum light provides stimulus for flower growth.


Plant Spacing

One of the most common mistakes made by indoor gardeners is that they fail to appreciate that fewer plants can mean more yield. Too many plants crowded into a small space will compete for available light and as a result stretch as they compete. Other than this, plant crowding will result in all of the plants shading the bulk of one another out, which in turn will result in each and every plant performing well below optimum photosynthetic potential/levels.

Night and Day Temps

The differences in temperature during the day/night (light/dark) period, known as “thermoperiod”, have a major effect on plant growth. It is assumed that through a raise in temperature early in the night period, more energy is put in generative growth (flower development). However, higher temperatures during the night period, compared to the day period, will stretch internodes and vice versa. Therefore, it is critical to reduce night temperatures to that of day temperatures during the stretch and bloom period.

It is generally asserted that plants produce maximum growth when exposed to a day temperature that is about 10 to 15°F higher than the night temperature. This allows the plant to photosynthesize (build up) and respire (break down) during an optimum daytime temperature, and to curtail the rate of respiration during a cooler night. High temperatures cause increased respiration, sometimes above the rate of photosynthesis.

However, not all plants grow best under the same range between nighttime and daytime temperatures. For example, snapdragons grow best at nighttime temperatures of 55°F; poinsettias, at 62°F.

Optimum temps in cannabis have been shown to differ based on genetics, the origins of these genetics, and the environments in which they evolved. For instance, in research conducted by F.A. Bazzaz et al (1975),
‘Four populations of Cannabis sativa L. grown from seeds collected in Panama, Jamaica, Nepal, and east central Illinois were grown under controlled conditions in growth chambers, One set was grown under warm conditions (32 ° day and 23 ° night) and the other set was grown under lower temperatures (23 ° day and 16 ° night).​
CO2 exchange and transpiration were examined under various temperatures and light intensities. Observations on growth, and analyses for chlorophyll and /k 1THC (tetrahydrocannabinol) content were made. Under warm growth conditions, the central Illinois population had the highest photosynthetic rate at all temperatures investigated.​
The Nepal population had intermediate rates, while the Jamaica and the Panama populations had the lowest rate. The Jamaica and Panama populations had insignificant changes in photosynthetic response to changes in temperatures between 1 5 ° and 30 °. Under cool growing conditions the central Illinois population had the highest rate of photosynthesis with a definite peak at 25 °. Nepal plants had intermediate rates of photosynthesis, while the Panama and Jamaica populations had the lowest rate.” 1​
What this means is that some experimentation is advised; however, in all instances night temps need to be lower than day temps in order to minimize stretch.​
Ref:​
F. A. BAZZAZ, D. DUSEK*, D. S. SEIGLER and A. W. HANEY (1975) Photosynthesis and Cannabinoid Content of Temperate and Tropical Populations of Cannabis sativa​
 
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