P
pacog
Guest
Fatman... I found a Fuji Ring Compressor Blower 17 CFM Model VFC 083P-IT-RS. Looks similar to the Gast would this work?
Papa
Supporter
- 2,474
- 163
if oxygen concentration in air is about 20%, isn't that about 200,000 ppm?
but if I may suggest, fatman, there are several of us who would like to better understand how we might optimize the contribution of DO to our ladies. you, having "a shelf full of DO meters" and experience with using them [which seems to be essential to getting accurate readings] could do some very valuable case studies for the farm. [and i suspect it's more interesting than sanitation engineering, at least it smells better].
fatman, have you checked out squarepusher's thread?
it would be very helpful for those of us who would like to learn more about this to see actual tests of the various conditions that may or may not impact DO levels . . . then we could run an optimum DO system next to the typical system and learn what impact DO might have on the ladies.
i've been helping a buddy put together his idea of a perfect reservoir for increasing his DO levels, here's a pic, what do you think?
Papa
but if I may suggest, fatman, there are several of us who would like to better understand how we might optimize the contribution of DO to our ladies. you, having "a shelf full of DO meters" and experience with using them [which seems to be essential to getting accurate readings] could do some very valuable case studies for the farm. [and i suspect it's more interesting than sanitation engineering, at least it smells better].
fatman, have you checked out squarepusher's thread?
it would be very helpful for those of us who would like to learn more about this to see actual tests of the various conditions that may or may not impact DO levels . . . then we could run an optimum DO system next to the typical system and learn what impact DO might have on the ladies.
i've been helping a buddy put together his idea of a perfect reservoir for increasing his DO levels, here's a pic, what do you think?
Papa
FLB
- 256
- 28
HOLY CONCRETE papa!! Somebodies bout to drop the bomb. Out of work concrete contractor maybe?? haha
P
pacog
Guest
Damn Papa... Someone wants to keep things aerated!!!! How big are those diffusers?
L
Lost
- 2,969
- 38
I'd like to see you use that pump in a residential or even some warehouse areas. regen blowers are loud!
Listen, im sure your very book smart, but not all of what you are saying adds up. :)
And I do not think you understand where I am coming from with the bubbles. Doesn't matter, im not going to argue textbooks with you. I grow herb. My experience does not happen in a vaccume.
One other thing, you mention the Under Current systems and then say the bubbles are useless. ??
Well pick one, are air bubbles useless or not? Do you think an undercurrent system with no air would do just as good? Thats basically what you are saying and I don't care how book smart you are or how many DO meters you have, the plants will do many times better with bubbles in the root mass.
You might want to try a less condensending tone if you really want to get a real discussion going. Unless you just want to talk text books :)
p.s. I still believe that the bubbles coming into contact with the rootmass raises the oxygen in the rootmass. Prove me wrong :)
M
mrdizzle
- 1,895
- 48
fatman forgets that air bubble moving through roots creates turbulance. Im also confused, if air can not be used by roots then why is lp aeropnics effective? I have read in maxyeild that bubbles moving through the root mass do give the roots DO. So its maxyeild vs fatman. and if the undercurrent creates more DO then my mbp Ill quit the game. also saying that in the same tub of water, there are different levels of DO, I dont see how that is possible
Papa
Supporter
- 2,474
- 163
dreamin' big
can you imagine the scale of system a reservoir like that could serve? [wink, wink]
it might even be bigger than jack's :)
Papa
can you imagine the scale of system a reservoir like that could serve? [wink, wink]
it might even be bigger than jack's :)
Papa
P
pacog
Guest
NOW THAT'S IMPRESSIVE!!!!:banana1sv6:
Would love to see that set up. A dream come true I tell you.
F
fatman
Guest
First understand that a low pressure aero system is not a good system. It's effectiveness as often quoted by manufacturers is based upon using 15 psi or more for a delivered water pressure. This pressure creates an "atomized" spray. The word atomized is important as the atomization makes the water into many droplets that are fully saturated with DO. The droplet sizes vary quite a bit and only few are of optimal size for easy up take by the roots. As a result the plants have some droplets that are perfectly sized. These droplets and the full saturation with DO increase the efficiency of a proper LP aero system. Over watering (water over saturation) caused by the larger droplets lower efficiency so that the efficiency starts to drop toward the efficiency of a common DWC system. The roots laying in a thick mass lower the efficiency even more. But as most DWC use to few and improperly sized air bubbles, they also have a problem equivalent to the root problem of the standard small tube aero system.
Now the DWC bubbles: Buoyancy is the key word here. First consider that a bubble is buoyant. A large bubbles is more buoyant than a small bubble. This is simply because it contains more air and the air being lighter than the water causes buoyancy. Now consider that a bubble trying to raise to the surface is actually a force pushing upward. The larger bubble produces more force.
Now consider the small bubbles. Yes they have more combined surface area per a given volume then a lessor number of bigger bubbles, so if the DO is below saturation level many, many small bubbles of say a total volume of 1 can provide a DO boost easier than the larger bubble of a total volume 1. However, small bubbles have very, very little buoyancy and therefore little force. Small bubbles have so little buoyancy force that the often stick to the sides of the reservoir and the roots and do not even have enough buoyancy force to break free and rise to the surface.
What this all means is small bubbles create little turbulence as they have little buoyancy force. They do not have enough force to effectively move roots enough to keep the roots separated so that water can flow freely between the roots. However if a DO boost to normal saturation level is need in the open areas where the small bubbles move then they are efficient at doing that. However the larger bubbles have a buoyancy force larger enough to keep the water turbulent. The larger bubbles move the roots around much more allowing water that is still saturated with DO to reach all the roots. Using small bubbles means little water flows between all the roots so the roots near the center of the mass receive very little or no DO as the water is already stripped of DO as it moves slowly through the root masses.
So if you intend to use air alone in your DWC reservoir use a combination of both large and small bubbles. In reality though the turbulence and circulation caused by many large bubbles will supply more than enough DO.
If any of you can figure out how to get tiny bubbles to possess enough buoyancy to force their way quickly between all the roots to keep them separated from each other and in constant motion you can be famous. In general small bubbles just flow around the root masses, where big bubbles can force themselves between the individual roots within the roots masses due to their stroger buoyancy forces.
The large tank shown in Papa's reply simply looks like an aeration chamber for a water treatment plant where the primary concern is gas stripping and aeration for oxidation purposes. Using small bubbles bubble diffusers alone a DWC would need a grid work such as that to perform optimally. I am quite sure if you checked you would fine those ose diffusers emit bubbles a lot larger than the typical air stones used by most mj growers. The tank shown would be using at least a large roots style blower to supply air adequate for that many diffusers.
As far as an undercurrent providing more DO dizzle, you also seem to be lacking in knowledge about DO. DO only needs to be supplied in quantities to meet the needs of bacteria oxygen demand and the demand of the plants roots. It requires very little in a hydro mj growing system to supply to a reservoir all the DO that is needed. I have no idea what kinda of system you are talking about when calling it a mbp system. Br esides I have not read anything you have posted yet that tends to lend any credibilty to your posts.
The problem is getting that fully DO saturated water to all the roots. As far as the Maxiyield deceptive half truth write up...I am quite sure it did not say what you implied. Few small bubbles make it into a root mass, so they can not supply DO to the water they do not contact. If bubbles make it into the roots masses yes if the bubbles still contain Oxygen and they are surrounded by water they will give up oxygen gen to the water. That water with DO can then be taken up by roots it contacts. IE bubbles do not supply DO to roots. Bubbles supply DO to water and the water is up taken by the roots to obtain DO. The bubbles in the undercurrent are to provide turbulence. Maintaining DO is simple dizzle in nearly all systems. As far as all water in a reservoir having the same DO that is NOT the CASE in a DWC reservoir with non turbulent water throughout the whole reservoir. If you had the capability to take a DO reading through out a poorly circulated non turbulent DWC reservoir u you would find the DO would vary a great deal through out the reservoir. Only the clearly open areas with lots of water circulation would be saturated with DO.
I have read the squarepusher DO thread in another Forum. I like squarepusher and most often his eplies are credible so this is not something I really want to write, but a quaetsion/request ia a question/request. The posted data showing DO above saturation levels with a standing reservoir with no circulation for hours is inaccurate. The statement about air stones only being able to provide 75% DO saturation is inaccurate. The state that bubbles supply DO to roots is inaccurate and I already explained that above. The stories about reservoirs with DO much above normal saturation levels are merely wishful thinking. The only really credible information in the thread came form a replier with the user name of VelvetElvis. If you notice the only way they obtain DO higher in the research work was by actually injecting pure H2O into the water delivery lines. In any reservoir where the water is at normal atmospheric pressure any DO in excess of saturation, very quickly returns to its gas state (in water to a bubble), so it is no longer DO just gaseous O2 that rises to the water surface and enters the room air.
I am sure squarepusher has leraned by now that to obtain a accuratte DO reading that the water needs to be mving across the tip of the DO probe. I Onecan not simply stick a probe inti ]o still water andget an accuratte DO reading. Either the waternust be in constant motion or the probe must be kept in constant motion. All it takes is one air bubble inside of the probe or on the probes membrne to nake all readings worthless.
They make really nice dis ffuser for large tanks that have a proppelle r above the diffuser. The rising bubbles turn the prop which also incraese circulation and turbulence.
Unless your running high temps High reservoir DO is not really not a major an issue. Circulation and turbuemce is always an issue with DWC. High DO in a DEC resrvoir matters liitle if the circilation and turbulence is poor.High DO water is of no use if it is not high DO by the time it makes it to the roots masses inner roots. If it is a low circulation low turbulent reservoir the way ter is low DO (or zero DO) by the time it makes it to the ceneter of the root mass. MJ roots only need contact with waer containing a minimum of about 2 ppm of DO. The problem lies in that all the roots need contact with water containing at least 2 ppm of DO. No, it does not work to supply 10 ppm to half the roots and 0.25 ppm to the other half.
Now the DWC bubbles: Buoyancy is the key word here. First consider that a bubble is buoyant. A large bubbles is more buoyant than a small bubble. This is simply because it contains more air and the air being lighter than the water causes buoyancy. Now consider that a bubble trying to raise to the surface is actually a force pushing upward. The larger bubble produces more force.
Now consider the small bubbles. Yes they have more combined surface area per a given volume then a lessor number of bigger bubbles, so if the DO is below saturation level many, many small bubbles of say a total volume of 1 can provide a DO boost easier than the larger bubble of a total volume 1. However, small bubbles have very, very little buoyancy and therefore little force. Small bubbles have so little buoyancy force that the often stick to the sides of the reservoir and the roots and do not even have enough buoyancy force to break free and rise to the surface.
What this all means is small bubbles create little turbulence as they have little buoyancy force. They do not have enough force to effectively move roots enough to keep the roots separated so that water can flow freely between the roots. However if a DO boost to normal saturation level is need in the open areas where the small bubbles move then they are efficient at doing that. However the larger bubbles have a buoyancy force larger enough to keep the water turbulent. The larger bubbles move the roots around much more allowing water that is still saturated with DO to reach all the roots. Using small bubbles means little water flows between all the roots so the roots near the center of the mass receive very little or no DO as the water is already stripped of DO as it moves slowly through the root masses.
So if you intend to use air alone in your DWC reservoir use a combination of both large and small bubbles. In reality though the turbulence and circulation caused by many large bubbles will supply more than enough DO.
If any of you can figure out how to get tiny bubbles to possess enough buoyancy to force their way quickly between all the roots to keep them separated from each other and in constant motion you can be famous. In general small bubbles just flow around the root masses, where big bubbles can force themselves between the individual roots within the roots masses due to their stroger buoyancy forces.
The large tank shown in Papa's reply simply looks like an aeration chamber for a water treatment plant where the primary concern is gas stripping and aeration for oxidation purposes. Using small bubbles bubble diffusers alone a DWC would need a grid work such as that to perform optimally. I am quite sure if you checked you would fine those ose diffusers emit bubbles a lot larger than the typical air stones used by most mj growers. The tank shown would be using at least a large roots style blower to supply air adequate for that many diffusers.
As far as an undercurrent providing more DO dizzle, you also seem to be lacking in knowledge about DO. DO only needs to be supplied in quantities to meet the needs of bacteria oxygen demand and the demand of the plants roots. It requires very little in a hydro mj growing system to supply to a reservoir all the DO that is needed. I have no idea what kinda of system you are talking about when calling it a mbp system. Br esides I have not read anything you have posted yet that tends to lend any credibilty to your posts.
The problem is getting that fully DO saturated water to all the roots. As far as the Maxiyield deceptive half truth write up...I am quite sure it did not say what you implied. Few small bubbles make it into a root mass, so they can not supply DO to the water they do not contact. If bubbles make it into the roots masses yes if the bubbles still contain Oxygen and they are surrounded by water they will give up oxygen gen to the water. That water with DO can then be taken up by roots it contacts. IE bubbles do not supply DO to roots. Bubbles supply DO to water and the water is up taken by the roots to obtain DO. The bubbles in the undercurrent are to provide turbulence. Maintaining DO is simple dizzle in nearly all systems. As far as all water in a reservoir having the same DO that is NOT the CASE in a DWC reservoir with non turbulent water throughout the whole reservoir. If you had the capability to take a DO reading through out a poorly circulated non turbulent DWC reservoir u you would find the DO would vary a great deal through out the reservoir. Only the clearly open areas with lots of water circulation would be saturated with DO.
I have read the squarepusher DO thread in another Forum. I like squarepusher and most often his eplies are credible so this is not something I really want to write, but a quaetsion/request ia a question/request. The posted data showing DO above saturation levels with a standing reservoir with no circulation for hours is inaccurate. The statement about air stones only being able to provide 75% DO saturation is inaccurate. The state that bubbles supply DO to roots is inaccurate and I already explained that above. The stories about reservoirs with DO much above normal saturation levels are merely wishful thinking. The only really credible information in the thread came form a replier with the user name of VelvetElvis. If you notice the only way they obtain DO higher in the research work was by actually injecting pure H2O into the water delivery lines. In any reservoir where the water is at normal atmospheric pressure any DO in excess of saturation, very quickly returns to its gas state (in water to a bubble), so it is no longer DO just gaseous O2 that rises to the water surface and enters the room air.
I am sure squarepusher has leraned by now that to obtain a accuratte DO reading that the water needs to be mving across the tip of the DO probe. I Onecan not simply stick a probe inti ]o still water andget an accuratte DO reading. Either the waternust be in constant motion or the probe must be kept in constant motion. All it takes is one air bubble inside of the probe or on the probes membrne to nake all readings worthless.
They make really nice dis ffuser for large tanks that have a proppelle r above the diffuser. The rising bubbles turn the prop which also incraese circulation and turbulence.
Unless your running high temps High reservoir DO is not really not a major an issue. Circulation and turbuemce is always an issue with DWC. High DO in a DEC resrvoir matters liitle if the circilation and turbulence is poor.High DO water is of no use if it is not high DO by the time it makes it to the roots masses inner roots. If it is a low circulation low turbulent reservoir the way ter is low DO (or zero DO) by the time it makes it to the ceneter of the root mass. MJ roots only need contact with waer containing a minimum of about 2 ppm of DO. The problem lies in that all the roots need contact with water containing at least 2 ppm of DO. No, it does not work to supply 10 ppm to half the roots and 0.25 ppm to the other half.
squarepusher
- 959
- 43
ya. i plan to do another test, but I admit something was going horrible wrong with my last test. Its either a cheap DO meter, or I wasn't using it correctly. On my next attempt I will take more pains to ensure accurate as possible results, but I think something was interfering with accurate results from my last test getting very weird readings
:sad0047:
:sad0047:
M
mrdizzle
- 1,895
- 48
I think I get it, so like I said, air bubbles do provide DO to the roots, and of course the smaller the better that is why airstones exsist. the turbulance from some of those bubbles also creates DO. and the 30ft that my water travels in 4in pvc after it overflows from my tubs, right before it waterfalls in to my res only to be pumped at 1800gph into my tubs at a rate of 18time per hour should give me the 2ppm needed to grow decent herb
L
Lost
- 2,969
- 38
So Fatman, how would you properly inject the air into the system for max effect?
Please try to show a real world example us farmers can put to use. 8-9 paragraphs and no, "So what you do is to __________."
Help us out here. :)
Please try to show a real world example us farmers can put to use. 8-9 paragraphs and no, "So what you do is to __________."
Help us out here. :)
L
Lost
- 2,969
- 38
FLB
- 256
- 28
IPlay4Keepz
- 454
- 63
What i understood is, that in RDWC the most important aspect is the turbulence created by the larger bubbles so more DO reaches the roots. Also that the water be constantly recirculating at the proper rate so the nutrient solution is constant throughout the system. So correct me if i'm wrong, the most effective way of improving the Undercurrent is by changing the air pump and stones so we can create more turbulence in the buckets? And if so, what combination of air pump and stones would you recommend? Thanx for the info. -Keepz
ScuzyRoach
- 159
- 18
fatman;372837. If you can find a chart showing 20 ppm of DO in water reservoirs etc said:
F
fatman
Guest
You got it!! Use a blower instead of an air pump and use at least 2 large diffusers or four smaller diffusers in each reservoir. This is what you want in the way of diffusers:
The secomd option is to use the existing air pump with the coarser bubble difusser by link above and use a needle wheel pump instead of a Danner pump as supplied by the undercurrent people.
D
DoubleDub
- 170
- 18
Fatman, What about non-dwc type systems?
What would the ideal and practical DO enrichment method be for a 100 gallon res that is hooked up to a simple drip feed irrigation system?
Would a small pond aerator be sufficient since turbulence wouldn't play a role?
What would the ideal and practical DO enrichment method be for a 100 gallon res that is hooked up to a simple drip feed irrigation system?
Would a small pond aerator be sufficient since turbulence wouldn't play a role?
F
fatman
Guest
Your getting closer. The air bubbles do not directly provide DO or gaseous oxygen to the roots. The small bubbles supply DO to the water. The water then supplies DO to the roots. The small bubbles supply little turbulence though. Turbulence is needed to keep the roots stands separated enough to allow good water circulation in between the roots strands. Yes this separation allows the small bubbles to move into the root masses as the root strands are separated. The small bubbles do not have the buoyancy strength to force their way through a mass f roots that are not separated so the bubbles simply go around the root masses and float to the surface through open spaces.
If your major concern is to add DO to the water use many,many smaller bubbles to supply DO to th water more efficiently and quicker. If your concern is to get DO laden water to all the roots then larger bubbles perform better as the have the buoyancy strength to force their way into a root mass plus they supply more turbulence thereby causing the root masses individual strands to separate and "fluff up" the root masses allowing easy water movement within the masses and between the root strands.
Your system should maintain over full saturation in its main body of water, but that is not really the issue. The issue is your way water turbulent enough every where there are roots to assure all the roots obtain adequate DO. Actually dude the flow rate through your tubs should be at least 30 exchanges or more per hours if your relying on water flow alone. IE for 100 gallons of water then 3000 gph would be much better. 5000 would be great. It is alos not so much a atter of flow ate either. It is still movement of ewater between all the roots that matter. It is ver possible to have high flow in a laminar flow that does not move the roots enough. If you are using only pump circulation to provide turbulence a multitude off small inlets works better than a large pipe running from tub to tub. Under current does not pump circulated water to produce turbulents. It mearely keep a gentle flow of water moving between all tubs so as to maintain matching water parameters in all tubs. It depends entirely on air for causing turbulence. The one sigle diffuser in it side reservoir maintains adequate DO by its self.
Repeated studies show plants roots do not require high levels of DO except at high temps. IE you still seem some what confused.
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