The History of OG Kush

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oahno

oahno

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nobody is saying oregon kid made any of these strains, he just got cuts in the 90s. all you're really proving is that all the best weed has similar origins and parentage, which is obvious. you saying blue orca is bubba and tk is og doesn't just automatically make it so. eventually we'll know the genes and know for sure i guess. but all the pictures of tk i've seen look maybe 80-85% like og and the orca pics only look half like bubba. lots of similar genetics in these strains for sure though. but at the end of the day isn't 90% of it skunk/nl/haze/hash plant (afghani)?

and again, many thanks for the pics. i feel the real breeders are going back to the 90s and digging up these real genetics again. the last 10-15 years have been complete degenerate bs if you ask me.
 
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caveman4.20

caveman4.20

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Now we're talking it's time to pop grandpa's seeds and preserve please.....families get your heirloom seeds into the green thumbs of your family's hands and make a fresh round just to be safe! ;^}
 
SpiderK

SpiderK

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I don't know what Ed is calling Maple leaf.
Ortega 15 was Maple leaf. This was crossed with AfgTx Sk and AfgS x sk males.
AfgT and AfgS were both sisters and pure maple leaf. Maybe Ed thought that AfgS meant Afg(Sam). It doesn't. The hybrid Ed is talking about is 3/4 Maple Leaf.

Nevil

===

It may have been something that I made.
The Maple Leaf cultivar AfgT had a full sister, AfgS. She was a fruitier counterpart to AfgT.
AfgSxSK1 was narcotically strong. I remember a few occasions that as group of people smoking it would suddenly get hit with a wave of warmth and then look at me with suspicion. I was inspired to cross this with the NL2xKush4, because I could detect a hint of commonality in the phenotypes. I never did find out how that panned out.

Nevil

===

A good description of NL1. Maybe ML1 meant MLxNL1. I know I made that cross.

Hash plant X NL1 was one of the strongest indica's I have smoked. That crossed real well with G13.

Nevil

===

The Maple Leaf came from a guy known to me as Jim Ortega. We traded seeds for a while. Not only did he supply me with Maple Leaf, but also Garlic Bud and Kush 4. The cannabis smoking world owes him a lot.

The Maple Leaf line provided me with a plant that I labeled Afghan T. This plant is the mother of Super/Ultra Skunk and also crossed well with HzC.

Kush 4, I crossed with NL2(which had the same Kush smell) and this Kush Hybrid is the foundation of todays Kush lines.

Garlic bud has also made it's presence felt and is part of todays super yielders.

Let me say one more thing about ML AfgT. This plant had exactly the same smell as Sams best SK1 but more so. It is the true Skunk archetype. I do not believe for one N.Y. minute that Afghani#1 is behind the SK1, which IMO gives credence to the Mendecino Joe story about SK1.

The world owes you a big Thank You Jim!
Let me be the first to say that I appreciate the work that you have done.

Nevil

===

Maple Leaf was not related to Northern Lights and didn't cross well with pure NL. Too much Indica. Hybrids of both strains dis cross well when they contained more sativa.
ML loves Skunk1. My nose and intuition tells me that these two are distantly related.

Jim Ortega is around and can speak for himself if he chooses. I get the feeling that he has spoken before and few listened.

The Afghan/hash plant is probably HPxNL1. Not a great yielder but gee it was strong.

Nevil

===

When I say NL5 did not cross well with ML, I mean it didn't fizz. I didn't find that many indica/indica crosses did. Indica to indica/sativa did. As a breeder who puts a product on the market, you find you have to deal with a few issues. What people say they want and what they really want. All those people who now seem to be against 1:1 matings would be the first to hammer you in public if they didn't get what they want in one packet of seeds. Remember brocolli man?
Predictability and genetic diversity do not go hand in hand. So you let them belittle you for doing 1:1 matings and they post pictures of the best buds in the world.

The market has changed since my day. Medical cannabis is more prominent. If you are looking for a particular effect, yield is not as important. If you say, forget about yield, I could blow you away, but few do.

Nevil

===

When I first got the NL varieties, there were 8 types, 1-8.
They came with descriptions, which I published in my catalogue. These descriptions may not correlate with what later developed. The original intention was to purchase seeds from the US NL growers. It didn't work out and supply dried up. I kept the lines separate and inbred them. NL1 and NL2 stabilised into distinct types and NL5 only produced one unique individual.
NL1 was a full blood Afghan indica. One thick main stem, dark green leaves, modest yield with nuggety buds, a little coarse with good resin production, which when ripe went golden. The high was narcotic. The seeds ranged from tiny to massive. I used to love the big ones. Large fat heavily and darkly mottled seeds. Selecting for these seeds made this Afghan even coarser. It was fun to show people these seeds.
The best line of NL1 actually came from the smaller seeded types, better high and bud structure.
There weren't many pure indica lines around in those days. Big Bud, Hash Plant and G13 were pure indicas in my estimation, but were cuttings. NL1 was the only good pure Afghani male line I had.( there was Sams Afghani#1, but that was toxic in a bad way) The NL2 was a Kush.
I put the NL1 out there as a pure strain. I wasn't popular. People would tell me, "give me the pure strains", but if it cost them 10% of their yield they would complain, well try 50%.
The pure indica hybrids were more popular. NL1 x HP and NL1 x G13 were the best. At least people could use the word pure (very popular). But they were good!

I expect that a lot of people holding what they believe to be pure indicas today, would find, if the truth be known, that the sire line traces back to NL1.

Nevil

===

That's right OS. I did go to the States later and pick up the original U.S. NL5 mother and it was as it was described to me, part Thai. But my NL5 didn't seem to have any Thai influence. I spent a lot of time analysing the NL lines, in particular NL5.

I only saw evidence of two indica male lines in the NL series and that was NL1 and NL2. My best bet was that NL5 was a combination of NL1 male line and US NL5 female. I guessed that US5 was 50% NL2. Northern Lights 2x5 was the best that I could do staying within the line (pure NL).

Northern Lights changed the face of cannabis genetics (and many a smoker), but it was mostly through NL5. You've got to marvel at fate for dropping that one extreme plant into the lap of a budding seed breeder.

Nevil

===

The NL 1-8 were seed lines and most were hybrids. A couple of years after getting the seed, I went to the U.S. to get the U.S. NL5 cutting. It didn't turn out to be as good or even that similar to my NL5.

Nevil
 
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MJ Indicator

MJ Indicator

49
18
An thorough OG Kush gene map would include Bubba, Chem Dawg and Original Diesel.
 
MJ Indicator

MJ Indicator

49
18
I don't know what Ed is calling Maple leaf.
Ortega 15 was Maple leaf. This was crossed with AfgTx Sk and AfgS x sk males.
AfgT and AfgS were both sisters and pure maple leaf. Maybe Ed thought that AfgS meant Afg(Sam). It doesn't. The hybrid Ed is talking about is 3/4 Maple Leaf.

Nevil

===

It may have been something that I made.
The Maple Leaf cultivar AfgT had a full sister, AfgS. She was a fruitier counterpart to AfgT.
AfgSxSK1 was narcotically strong. I remember a few occasions that as group of people smoking it would suddenly get hit with a wave of warmth and then look at me with suspicion. I was inspired to cross this with the NL2xKush4, because I could detect a hint of commonality in the phenotypes. I never did find out how that panned out.

Nevil

===

A good description of NL1. Maybe ML1 meant MLxNL1. I know I made that cross.

Hash plant X NL1 was one of the strongest indica's I have smoked. That crossed real well with G13.

Nevil

===

The Maple Leaf came from a guy known to me as Jim Ortega. We traded seeds for a while. Not only did he supply me with Maple Leaf, but also Garlic Bud and Kush 4. The cannabis smoking world owes him a lot.

The Maple Leaf line provided me with a plant that I labeled Afghan T. This plant is the mother of Super/Ultra Skunk and also crossed well with HzC.

Kush 4, I crossed with NL2(which had the same Kush smell) and this Kush Hybrid is the foundation of todays Kush lines.

Garlic bud has also made it's presence felt and is part of todays super yielders.

Let me say one more thing about ML AfgT. This plant had exactly the same smell as Sams best SK1 but more so. It is the true Skunk archetype. I do not believe for one N.Y. minute that Afghani#1 is behind the SK1, which IMO gives credence to the Mendecino Joe story about SK1.

The world owes you a big Thank You Jim!
Let me be the first to say that I appreciate the work that you have done.

Nevil

===

Maple Leaf was not related to Northern Lights and didn't cross well with pure NL. Too much Indica. Hybrids of both strains dis cross well when they contained more sativa.
ML loves Skunk1. My nose and intuition tells me that these two are distantly related.

Jim Ortega is around and can speak for himself if he chooses. I get the feeling that he has spoken before and few listened.

The Afghan/hash plant is probably HPxNL1. Not a great yielder but gee it was strong.

Nevil

===

When I say NL5 did not cross well with ML, I mean it didn't fizz. I didn't find that many indica/indica crosses did. Indica to indica/sativa did. As a breeder who puts a product on the market, you find you have to deal with a few issues. What people say they want and what they really want. All those people who now seem to be against 1:1 matings would be the first to hammer you in public if they didn't get what they want in one packet of seeds. Remember brocolli man?
Predictability and genetic diversity do not go hand in hand. So you let them belittle you for doing 1:1 matings and they post pictures of the best buds in the world.

The market has changed since my day. Medical cannabis is more prominent. If you are looking for a particular effect, yield is not as important. If you say, forget about yield, I could blow you away, but few do.

Nevil

===

When I first got the NL varieties, there were 8 types, 1-8.
They came with descriptions, which I published in my catalogue. These descriptions may not correlate with what later developed. The original intention was to purchase seeds from the US NL growers. It didn't work out and supply dried up. I kept the lines separate and inbred them. NL1 and NL2 stabilised into distinct types and NL5 only produced one unique individual.
NL1 was a full blood Afghan indica. One thick main stem, dark green leaves, modest yield with nuggety buds, a little coarse with good resin production, which when ripe went golden. The high was narcotic. The seeds ranged from tiny to massive. I used to love the big ones. Large fat heavily and darkly mottled seeds. Selecting for these seeds made this Afghan even coarser. It was fun to show people these seeds.
The best line of NL1 actually came from the smaller seeded types, better high and bud structure.
There weren't many pure indica lines around in those days. Big Bud, Hash Plant and G13 were pure indicas in my estimation, but were cuttings. NL1 was the only good pure Afghani male line I had.( there was Sams Afghani#1, but that was toxic in a bad way) The NL2 was a Kush.
I put the NL1 out there as a pure strain. I wasn't popular. People would tell me, "give me the pure strains", but if it cost them 10% of their yield they would complain, well try 50%.
The pure indica hybrids were more popular. NL1 x HP and NL1 x G13 were the best. At least people could use the word pure (very popular). But they were good!

I expect that a lot of people holding what they believe to be pure indicas today, would find, if the truth be known, that the sire line traces back to NL1.

Nevil

===

That's right OS. I did go to the States later and pick up the original U.S. NL5 mother and it was as it was described to me, part Thai. But my NL5 didn't seem to have any Thai influence. I spent a lot of time analysing the NL lines, in particular NL5.

I only saw evidence of two indica male lines in the NL series and that was NL1 and NL2. My best bet was that NL5 was a combination of NL1 male line and US NL5 female. I guessed that US5 was 50% NL2. Northern Lights 2x5 was the best that I could do staying within the line (pure NL).

Northern Lights changed the face of cannabis genetics (and many a smoker), but it was mostly through NL5. You've got to marvel at fate for dropping that one extreme plant into the lap of a budding seed breeder.

Nevil

===

The NL 1-8 were seed lines and most were hybrids. A couple of years after getting the seed, I went to the U.S. to get the U.S. NL5 cutting. It didn't turn out to be as good or even that similar to my NL5.

Nevil
This seems some close info to what I seek. I've been searching for anything showing the specific genetics that went into Afghani #1
 
zeke

zeke

1,180
263
I love the old catalog. Very cool. Is that blood on that shit? I suppose someone had to die to get your hands that. Those TADS OG episodes were interesting. I get that advertising is a big part of any radio program but damn I fucking hate those "shout outs". Frank Gegax is my fucking hero...
 
oahno

oahno

40
18
Nevil's the fuckin man, can't wait until he's back in the game. Great posts, if you have anything else dump it for sure. I could read him talking about shit all day.
I love the old catalog. Very cool. Is that blood on that shit? I suppose someone had to die to get your hands that. Those TADS OG episodes were interesting. I get that advertising is a big part of any radio program but damn I fucking hate those "shout outs". Frank Gegax is my fucking hero...
ya the ads and the shoutouts i just fast forward through or click past. giving shoutouts at the end of every podcast is idiotic if you ask me. nobody gives a shit about them other than the exact person you're shouting out. so your whole listener base basically just tunes out. also dunns sidekick (incredibowl dude) is obviously a shady scumbag i wouldnt wanna deal with, just my impression. if you watch the videos of the podcast when he's interviewing people. a lot of the time he's joking around with someone else in the studio whispering to them and shit, not even listening to what the person on the phone has to say. then he just chimes back in with another random question that has nothing to do with the previous answer. it's shitty broadcasting, extremely insulting to your interviewee, and your audience as well. and don't get me started on the badger sounding douchebag who should never speak on air. but i digress...

is there any other good mj related podcasts out there? i'm a fan of hash church on bubblemans channel as well. would love to hear of any more out there.
 
caveman4.20

caveman4.20

5,969
313
I hear you oahno, and I see what you mean and my response is
Info has been the most hoarded aspect of this game and we are hungry

Just like the clones and killer seeds are hoarded in which create hunger....

I use to be hungry for info to eat it all.....now I see that there can be too much info, lol, it's a fucking Novela and I hate those but I grew up being forced to watch them and I'll admit I am entertained by this shit. It is what it is, entertainment, just like this thread

Peace
 
oahno

oahno

40
18
thing is we've been basically starved of the truth all our lives. things we knew instinctually but were still shouted at us from upon high. "pots bad for you" "you're ruining your life" "you're gonna be lazy" "it's just a drug for dopers, no medical benefit" "it's just thc" "it's just cbd"....so much bullshit from arrogant people who think that just because they are residing in this exact moment of time, everything must be known and taken at face value.

it is so refreshing to see the change taking place and truth coming out over the last 1-2 years, i am sitting back and watching with open eyes along with everyone else. off track but anyway just wanted to say that.
 
SpiderK

SpiderK

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263
1:1 matings is something I'd like to address. People suggest that I'm creating a bottleneck and it's true. A bottleneck of quality. Seeds are usually produced by using two parents. With a 1:1 mating you know which ones they were.

As a seed breeder, the job as I see it is to ensure that the customer has the highest chance of producing a keeper pheno, whilst at the same time keeping the median a high standard. Every packet should produce top shelf plants. These guys who say you have to buy numerous packets of seed to get a keeper, crack me up. The job is not to save the gene pool, but to satisfy the guy who gave you the money. Few people want to give you money to save the genepool (but I am taking donations) Haha!

If I'm making Early Skunk and the mother EP has been chosen. Which Skunk male fathers the seeds does make a difference. Single progeny tested males is your best guarantee of quality and crop uniformity.

Nevil

===

If you are trying to stabilise an indica sativa hybrid and you believe the pheno you are looking for is the narrow leafed type, then culling broad leafed types is a perfectly valid tool.

Selecting females for next years crop from open pollinated fields is traditional farming practice. There is little or no selection with males but this is compensated by being able to pick the best females out of often tens of thousands of plants.

Modern growers, limited by prohibition are not able to grow in these kind of numbers, nevertheless, the results achieved by small scale operations has out stripped those achieved by their traditional counterparts. IMO, it is precisely the extreme narrowing of the gene pool which has caused these rapid advancements. It is rare for more than the single best female to get used for breeding each generation. Small numbers allow for much more attention to be given to males. Bottlenecking is a negatively laden term for intense selection, we call it the latter if it is successful and bottlenecking if we wish to imply that it's not. Heavy inbreeding is the way pure strains are created, not that I see the market flooded with pure strains.

Skunk#1 is a classic case of a heavily inbred strain. I wonder how many 1:1 matings is behind that strain. It has it's problems, but it is still an industry standard. My own skunk line was the result of 5 or 6 generations brother to sister matings. The Early Pearl I used for breeding has been inbred for more than 20 years, starting from about 40 seeds, probably siblings to start with.

Anyone who considers 1:1 F1 hybrids with two unrelated strains bottlenecking, doesn't really know what they are talking about. There is a huge difference between F2s of hybrids and pure strains.

Most of the work I did was with batches of 40-50 seeds at a time. Space constraints did not allow for more. The best plant out of 20 females will be pretty close in quality to the best out of a 1000. Many of my cuttings, still considered elite, came out of similar sized batches.

The fact is that intense selection of small numbers of plants over many generations is what has caused rapid advancement in cannabis genetics and the fixing of type.

Nevil

===

Most of the work I did was with batches of 40-50 seeds at a time.

The variety I grew the most of was NL5xHzC. No.1 came out in the first batch of about 20 females. Over the years I've grown many 1000s. In most respects, it was still the best. No.122, the one Shanti dubbed the Mango, came after years of searching, a tireless quest on my part. Aspiring growers often came to me and I regularly made them start with 5Hz seed. There are a few cuts around from those exploits, but they weren't as good as 1 and 122. But almost. As I said before, there's not a sea of difference between the best out of 50 and the best out of 1000. But there is a difference for the most discerning.

Nevil
 
cannapits

cannapits

Original Swamp Fam
Supporter
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no, i'm talking selling out ......

selling a story for monetary reasons. the reason adam started the show was for money making from day one, not the love of the community. and thats fine, .... many people start businesses for making money. but understanding this ahead of time helps so ya' do not believe something without research. and research in this very thread tells me from the start the test are worthy of bird cage liner ..... jmo.

people can purchase your air time or your viewpoint and then its sold on-air. it happens in regular radio all the time ....

many of the players on the forums worried about cuts are doing it for monetary reasons, like vapor selling oregon kid. build a story then sell ..... and i figure those working with adam on this hunt have the cuts waiting for the wave of hype that comes from these test & then the chucking starts.....

so i will sit back and see how it plays out .....

lol. adam is making a ton of money off that show. he's rich bitch. lmao. I doubt it
 
SpiderK

SpiderK

2,339
263
The analogy with cheetahs is not a very good one. The only way cannabis compares to mammals is that it has 2 sexes. Plants can stand a good deal more inbreeding than mammals and most plants are by nature self pollinators, but if it has taken 10,000 years for things to come to a head with cheetahs, I think we can stop worrying about it for a while. If there is a danger of bottlenecking with cannabis, it will come from the fem industry and the common practice of selfing.

It's ironic that Chimera should come with the criticism.

Unlike the cheetah, cannabis is grown on every continent on earth and as long as there are male cannabis plants around, the whole issue of bottlenecking is a dead horse.

Outcrossing
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Outcrossing is the practice of introducing unrelated genetic material into a breeding line. It increases genetic diversity, thus reducing the probability of all individuals being subject to disease or reducing genetic abnormalities(only within the first generation). It actually can serve to increase the number of individuals who carry a disease recessively.

An outcross is defined by horse breeders as a mating that does not have a common ancestor in the first 5 removes. All race horses that are considered outcrosses still have numerous duplications of ancestors further back in the pedigree.

A common practise in breeding IBLs is to put siblings into separate groups and inbreed them for 3-5 generations before bring them back together again. Each line can focus on one primary trait, allowing for more rapid advancement of the selected trait. Once the separate IBLs are put together again, only plants that possess all of the bred for characteristics are used for further breeding and the process begins again. Ideally, the recombined lines of the IBL should be sold at this point. Largely however, it's a moot point as few inbred lines are offered to the market by breeders. IBLs are used by breeders to produce hybrids or polyhybrids in order to combine as many of the dominant positive traits as possible in one variety. Hybrid vigour is the biggest contributing factor, when it comes to yield and my experience has shown that the market demands yield (whilst at the same time paying lip-service to the idea of pure strains). The pure strains that I put out in the past were not popular due to the fact that they couldn't compete against the hybrids in many respects.

When I said that I'd risk bottlenecking in my pursuit of quality, I was being facetious. The idea of bottlenecked hybrids is a joke and if lines failed to perform, I wouldn't sell them. Nature (and buyers) does not reward failure and therefore the idea that anyone can cause the cannabis to go through a bottleneck and ruin things for future growers, is delusional. The cannabis seed industry is not responsible for bottlenecking (excepting maybe the fem breeders) but rather a great Diaspora of cannabis genetics.

Loss of pure land races is a bigger threat, but in case this is news to you, the damage had been done (the single convention of '61) long before I started breeding. Nearly all of the popular strains that I'd acquired were already polyhybrids with a broad genetic base. Selective breeding made IBLs out of some of them.

Nevil
 
SpiderK

SpiderK

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Org


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