anyone ever tried real organic hydroponics?

[ttystikk]

I've run aquaponics with trout before (60F water) and also added potassium sulfate to supplement lacking K levels. P was never an issue. If anything, Ca was also needing a touch more, but otherwise things went fine.

Yesyesyes with trout, even? That would be my preference, both due to it being a favorite fish, but also because it's considered a cold water fish which would better tolerate the low 60s I prefer for my plants.

I realize that what I don't know about this dwarfs what I do, but I've been running RDWC and I think the two approaches share more similarities than differences. Perhaps I could even pump the aquaponic water directly through an otherwise conventional RDWC system? Such a scenario would be ideal!

 

[cctt]

Yesyesyes with trout, even? That would be my preference, both due to it being a favorite fish, but also because it's considered a cold water fish which would better tolerate the low 60s I prefer for my plants.

The trout worked out for me, but I killed a lot of them. They are very picky when it comes to water quality. Even a short power outage leads to low O2 levels and dead fish. I'm thinking about talapia now just to make my life easier.

Perhaps I could even pump the aquaponic water directly through an otherwise conventional RDWC system? Such a scenario would be ideal!

I'd like to try this sometime. I would think it could work out, so long as there is a separate biofilter rather than expecting a growbed to perform both functions.

 

[ttystikk]

Okay, so work up to trout, although I'm pretty sure I can find a way to keep O2 levels up to acceptable levels during a power outage of less than 24 hours; small fountain pump on a battery backup.

The biofilter and grow bed are two separate components of a living aquaponics system, so I see no reason to change that here. I need to research these components- could you give me a quick idea of what they do, as a place to start? By grow bed, do you mean the plants in the RDWC?

 

[ttystikk]

I've run aquaponics with trout before (60F water) and also added potassium sulfate to supplement lacking K levels. P was never an issue. If anything, Ca was also needing a touch more, but otherwise things went fine.

I've heard of a primitive but apparently effective form of aquaponics; in China, farmers release a certain variety of bass or similar into their rice paddies. The fish eat insects that attack the rice, the paddy is big enough to absorb and digest the fish waste, which then feeds the rice. The farmers get supplemental protein in the fish... if we can come anywhere near such a level of symbiosis with indoor technologies, I'd feel like a real advance will have been made.

 

[cctt]

The biofilter and grow bed are two separate components of a living aquaponics system, so I see no reason to change that here. I need to research these components- could you give me a quick idea of what they do, as a place to start? By grow bed, do you mean the plants in the RDWC?

I'm running a system with a flood/drain hydroton bed in which the plants grow - that also acts as the biofilter. More compact to do it this way, but I think if I were to go larger in scale I'd want to separate them. And going RDWC would necessitate this as well.

 

[stutter]

the yield is a little lower than i would have liked but as i have mentioned before i screwed up in early flower and i know i can do better next round

 

[Seamaiden]

Stutter, it still looks beautiful and like it could easily compete with other more traditional grow methods.

The trout worked out for me, but I killed a lot of them. They are very picky when it comes to water quality. Even a short power outage leads to low O2 levels and dead fish. I'm thinking about talapia now just to make my life easier.

You answered those questions. Yes, trout are very delicate (as are piranha and sharks, IME). The only fish that I'm familiar with raising that can handle cool temps, and conversely low O2 levels, are koi, aka carp. Blech. While I've not raised or handled tilapia, IIRC they're an African cichlid, from the river systems, and so appreciate warmer waters. They can be quite tasty, too!

Okay, so work up to trout, although I'm pretty sure I can find a way to keep O2 levels up to acceptable levels during a power outage of less than 24 hours; small fountain pump on a battery backup.

The biofilter and grow bed are two separate components of a living aquaponics system, so I see no reason to change that here. I need to research these components- could you give me a quick idea of what they do, as a place to start? By grow bed, do you mean the plants in the RDWC?

I've heard of a primitive but apparently effective form of aquaponics; in China, farmers release a certain variety of bass or similar into their rice paddies. The fish eat insects that attack the rice, the paddy is big enough to absorb and digest the fish waste, which then feeds the rice. The farmers get supplemental protein in the fish... if we can come anywhere near such a level of symbiosis with indoor technologies, I'd feel like a real advance will have been made.

Oh, Jesus, I don't know why I never thought of this. Many, if not most of the Central and South American fishes brought in for the aquarium hobby are actually very good eating if fed properly. Oscars, damn near all the cichlids, pacu, and check this out, peacock bass! Pacu are fruit-eaters, which is why they've got such strong jaws. I can almost taste the cheek meat right now! (Think: pompano.) With oscars, you can definitely get some size out of them. Just feed them insects and the like, never goldfish or fish food, and they should be delicious.

I hear tang is good eating, too, but you'd need to be running a salt(ier) system. ;)

 

[ttystikk]

So much to learn here... I feel like I'm just now getting a handle on my system as it is, I don't want to overwhelm myself.

I think I'll start an aquaponics setup with easy fish and plants, and kick things up a notch as I get some experience.

So what would be a good starter setup?

 

[vaporedout]

uhhhhh..... WOW. those things look amazing. still just going off the fish water huh? im blown away by your results so far. any chance we can get a closer bud shot?

 

[stutter]

Thanks guys. Yes fishwater and a touch of potassium sulphate.
I still need to tweak it a touch to get a little more weight before it will replace coco for me but it wont be long and I will be growing all aquaponics I think. Its so low maintenance and the buds smell terrific.

 

[cctt]

Stutter: I notice on the forum in your signature mention of using worm juice to supplement K. Do you use this, and do you find it's not enough and still needs additional K2SO4? I've never been able to fruit/flower in an all-organic aquaponic system without deficiency, but I like the idea.

 

[stutter]

No I add potassium sulphate. I had a deficiency early flower that affected yoeld considerably.

 

[Mr.Sputnik]

I found enzymes and bacteria used in fish tanks to be beneficial. Water temps are very critical with this type of system. I never could get it to work right after over a year of trying it in a recirculating deep water culture system so I said screw it. A friend of mine bought some different air diffusers with smaller bubbles then the ones you typically can find in a pet store to increase the depleted oxygen levels but it's untested as he went back to dead res before we could test it out. The theory was good, but..? I wish you luck.

 

[stutter]

Mr sputnik, just wondering you say you were doing a deep water culture?. what were you using as a biofilter to house the bacteria?

yes enzymes and bacteria used to cycle fishtanks are exactly the same as used in aquaponics and can be beneficial.

also why would the oxygen be depleted? in aquaponics you really need to keep it cycling water fairly constantly. the act of cycling it through the feed rings and back into the res should create enough oxygen alone. i also have airstones in my res as a fail safe, plus i think the fish like to play in the bubbles :)

 

[vaporedout]

Mr sputnik, just wondering you say you were doing a deep water culture?. what were you using as a biofilter to house the bacteria?

yes enzymes and bacteria used to cycle fishtanks are exactly the same as used in aquaponics and can be beneficial.

also why would the oxygen be depleted? in aquaponics you really need to keep it cycling water fairly constantly. the act of cycling it through the feed rings and back into the res should create enough oxygen alone. i also have airstones in my res as a fail safe, plus i think the fish like to play in the bubbles :)

they so do!!! i used to watch my fish dart through the bubbles. it looked like they were playing tag

 

[Mr.Sputnik]

Mr sputnik, just wondering you say you were doing a deep water culture?. what were you using as a biofilter to house the bacteria?

yes enzymes and bacteria used to cycle fishtanks are exactly the same as used in aquaponics and can be beneficial.

also why would the oxygen be depleted? in aquaponics you really need to keep it cycling water fairly constantly. the act of cycling it through the feed rings and back into the res should create enough oxygen alone. i also have airstones in my res as a fail safe, plus i think the fish like to play in the bubbles :)

Sorry, I meant dissolved oxygen. The bacteria was placed at the root zone in net pots filled with hydroton. I didn't have a specific bacteria colony to speak of. Can you use humates in aquaponics or will it hurt the fish?

Those buds look fantastic. Keep up the good work.

 

[ttystikk]

Can you do me a favor? Can you walk us through the components you're using in your current setup? I have lots of questions that seeing your setup might answer, like relative size of fish tank to growing area, number of fish vs plants, etc. I would especially like to see a pic and some discussion of the biofilter you're using, as that is the most mysterious component of the system...

 

[cctt]

Fish : Plants is an important ratio. You can always lean a bit heavy on the plant side and foliar feed some maxicrop if they're a bit deficient. If you lean the other way the fish will not like it. Note you're really balancing the fish metabolism against the plant metabolism - so the rate you feed the fish affects this as well as the number of fish, and the amount of light and vigor of the plants affects it as well as the number/size of vegetation.

Tank volume: Greater water volume provides more buffering capacity. Safer to have more water than you need than too little.

Biofilter: Extremely important. Am I to understand you didn't have one, Sputnik? If that's the case I'm not surprised your system never worked. The nitrification cycle is a core-component of aquaponics. Like the water volume, bigger is better as it will provide more stability. If it can't keep up the fish will poison themselves with their own ammonia.

 

[stutter]

Ok the run down couldnt be simpler.

2 x 50l tubs
50l hydroton
1 x 1300l/h water pump
1 x dual outlet air pump
2 x airstones
1 x aquarium heater
1 x automatic fish feeder
some plastic hose and various elbows/t-pieces

basically i have a 50l tub which acts as a growbed/biofilter. so the growbed is the biofilter. this is hands down the most important piece of the puzzle. the grow bed/bio filter is filled with hydroton clay balls. fairly obviously the clay balls support the plant and the roots.

However its most important job is to house the Nitrifying bacteria. these little guys live in the hydroton and the water is cycled through the grow bed constantly. as the water/fish waste passes through the grow bed/bio filter these bacteria will convert the fish waste (Ammonia) into nitrites and then they will convert the nitrites into readily available nitrates.
without this naturally occurring and very simple process the whole aquaponics garden will fail. the nitrates would build up to toxic levels and kill the fish and the plants would not have any nutrients to survive.
It is probably worth noting at this stage that Pythium/Root rot is non existent in aquaponics. most likely due to the high populations of beneficial bacteria living in the system. it never gets a chance to get a foot hold despite the fact that the whole system runs warm water. which the plants seem to enjoy just as much as the fish:)

There is also a very happy colony of Red wrigglers (composting worms) in my grow bed. As i understand it you can live without these guys but i dont know why you would. there job is to get any large solid fish waste or leaf matter etc that find its way into the grow bed and break it down. this helps make it more available to the plants an the bacteria while makig sure your system doesnt become clogged up with fish poo. i wasnt sure how much the worms would like it in the system but they seem to love it. i find the little baby worms anywhere the water gets, i find them in wedges between the lids and the tubs, i have found colonies living inside the drip rings, in the grow bed, just everywhere. unlucky for them because whenever i find a worm somewhere it isnt supposed to be it becomes a delicious fish treat :)

On to the Fish tank. i use another 50l fish tank sitting under the growbed, i could easily have had a bigger fish tank but it would just have been for aesthetics really and to give the fish a little more room but the 50l works fine.
i have the fish tank turned 90degrees to the grow bed so the grow bed can sit on top of it and i still have an opening to access the fish and so that the fish can still get some light etc.

Thats right the tank isnt a sterile light tight system. algae grows in there and all sorts of stuff. since root rot isnt an issue and the fish seem to snack on the algae between meals having it open is fine. plus again i think the fish like having a choice between the shaded area under the grow bed and the lighted area out the front. Happy fish makes for a healthy system IMO.
on that note i have a few aquarium decorations and hidey holes in there for the fish to play around just like a real fish tank.

also like a real fish tank you have to keep the fish comfortableso there is an aquarium heater to keep the water temp up around 24c (75f) and i also have some airstones in there becuase fish will die without oxygen and if for some reason my water pump fails i dont want to lose my fish.

i Have 7 Gold fish that are responsible for tending to my garden while im not around. they started off around 1.5inches when i bought them and have rapidly grown in the course fo this grow to around 6 inches. the fish grow incredibly fast in this system because i feed them 4 times a day with an automated feeder. in an ordinary fishtank you couldnt do that becuase the fish poo would create too much ammonia and the fish would poison themselves in no time at all. however in aquaponics the plants keep the water clean so you can feed the fish pretty much all they can eat. i even give them little feeds in between the automated ones because they come scurrying to the surface whenever they see me (those little fish love me so much).

The food is 100% organic and is a high protein high fat feed. perfect for strong fish and plants.
i dont actually know what goes into it but i buy t from an aquaponics specific store and its very cheap. so far this grow has cost me about $12 in fish feed.

the water is cycled constantly in my system. traditionally aquaponics is flood and drain but it doesnt really matter what system you use as long as you provide a decent home for bacteria and plants that has high oxygen and consistent water flow. the rule of thumb for aquaponics is the full volume of water must circulate at least once an hr. so for a 50l system like mine i really only need to circulate 50l an hr of water to keep the biofilter etc working correctly but the constant flow and the waterfall effect is where i get most of my oxygen so i run it constant. clay balls work well with constant flow anyway.

my water is pumped up from a pump in the fish tank and is distributed by a home made drip ring. it is important to keep in mind some of these fish poo's get quite big and you will need large holes in your drip ring to allow it pass through without it clogging up and as mentioned worms and all sorts of things will end up in there so big holes are a must. the water flows through the grow bed and simply drains out the bottom via 2 holes i drilled about half an inch above the base of the grow bed and drops a few inches back into the fish tank.

that is the whole circle completed in detail. it might sound complicated but its very basic when you go back and see the components needed.

Now some of you are probably wondering about PH by now. Ph is a funny thing in these systems . it is for the most part self buffering once the bacteria take control of the show. they will keep it in check pretty well. it is how ever different to what we are used to in hydro. PH is usually in the range of 6-7 PH because that is the range where the bacteria are most comfortable. it doesnt seem to affect nutrient uptake at all in fact i doubt that you will see any nutrient deficienies at all in veg and your plants will be the healthiest you have ever seen them.

In flower i did get a potassium deficiency show up. apparently these systems are low on potassium and it is a simple fix. you can add potassium sulphate or potassium hydroxide to increase potassium levels quite easily.

i will try and get some pics for you but i have lost my memory card for my good camera so they might be a little crummy but you should get the gist of it. that will have to wait for lights on though.

 

[ttystikk]

Fish : Plants is an important ratio. You can always lean a bit heavy on the plant side and foliar feed some maxicrop if they're a bit deficient. If you lean the other way the fish will not like it. Note you're really balancing the fish metabolism against the plant metabolism - so the rate you feed the fish affects this as well as the number of fish, and the amount of light and vigor of the plants affects it as well as the number/size of vegetation.

Tank volume: Greater water volume provides more buffering capacity. Safer to have more water than you need than too little.

Biofilter: Extremely important. Am I to understand you didn't have one, Sputnik? If that's the case I'm not surprised your system never worked. The nitrification cycle is a core-component of aquaponics. Like the water volume, bigger is better as it will provide more stability. If it can't keep up the fish will poison themselves with their own ammonia.

This is exactly the kind of info I need, thanks! Can someone discuss the biofilter portion a little more?

Lol, I write this and Stutter already has a book up!