co2 oil

[Moe Danks]

way off topic, but definitely love to travel with demetri.

 

[pork]

there is a guy here in the bay that is selling co2 extraction kits...i've seen em...so much simpler than SSco2 or all that other whole room crap... This is essentially a glass on glass BHO tube with a flare fitting for a co2 tank. 120psi on the tank, blast it through the tube filled with trim, and out the glass filter screen on the other end comes co2 oil....simple...easy....2-3 pieces of hardware....

 

[motherlode]

have you seen this work pork - was talking to somebody about this the other day and he said you would have loop the co2 through several times for this to be effective at all

 

[Ohiofarmer]

With his setup you have to run the extraction through multiple multiple times to get the right concentration, i use to use a setup similiar to that way back in my younger years. hope this helps, take it bros :passingjoint:

 

[kuz]

What about using dry ice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2aIUemy9Xw

I know, dumb kids like to make bombs that way.

 

[jak]

What about using dry ice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2aIUemy9Xw

I know, dumb kids like to make bombs that way.

I'd love to hear more about this. Details and experience?

 

[dudeman]

I would love to get his info?

 

[dudeman]

Critical CO2 Extraction is very expensive. My friend is buying one, $25,000!
I looked into it. Basically they are made to extract essence from plants.

It should be the healthiest way to make oil. I will see the machine soon I hope.

 

[MECCCA]

Great thread - I'm way interrested in the bay area person with lower tech C02 equip...details details!

 

[MTgrower]

I don't feel like reading the entirety of this thread, so forgive me if this has already been posted. This company appears to have some pretty serious extraction equipment, including setups for both methods of CO2 extraction. This page gives a quick rundown of the process, and some other solvents. I'm planning on doing the ether extractions next. Not only does it give you the killer product you seek, you can huff a rag and get fucked up while you're waiting for your oil. If that is your thing.... Just don't huff where you could fall out face down in the rag. You'll will die.



I run a Tamisium system (the entire thing) and love it, but these guys look like they have some nice products too. Just get ready to pay thousands and thousands.

 

[EuDiesel]

hahaha i figured you'd say that man, the fact that you tell me to link you to a site means somthin lol. i didn't mean to offend tho bro haha i'm just sayin so the info's out there not sayin it to argue, like i said tho it's probally bomb oil just not real scco2, real scco2 has to be run by chemists.... and the logic behind it is simple. If the government allowed me to oppenly have that technology then i could just manufacture pharmaceutical grade drugs in my basement, like morphine, codiene, oxycodon, etc ............it's really simple logic. if i were to do that i'd put the 1.3 trillion dollar a fiscal year drug companies outta business. it's honestly just common sense, but if you don't believe me there are plenty of organic chemists in colorado. to tell you. anyways take it easy nd enjoy your shatter man. i don't mean to hate, just elaborate :smiley_joint:

SUPERFLUID MACHINES, look which company owns the patents.........Pfizer. .....................

Its likely that some post-doc or other employee of Pfizer came up with the idea, and then Pfizer patented it. When you work for these companies your ideas = their copyright.

This is kinda neat.

There are cheaper, academic (lab bench) models that do smaller batches. Not necessarily a bad thing to do more of smaller extractions...

As far as extracting natural sources, all you need is a solvent. You could (steam) distill it, continuously extract in a Soxhlet extractor, or just a plain solid-liquid extraction. There is no specific reason you would be any more suspicious for having one of these.

All i am saying is that you Will Not get ahold of a industrial or pharmaceutical grade, cold pressure extractor(aka supercritical fluid extractor)

Its critical temperature is ABOVE room temperature...its the pressure you want.

this entire process is AKA oxidation which converts a raw unpure product into a pure crystalline structure,it does this through decarboxilation(the most basic form of refinement in Organic Chemistry

Please. You are obviously not a chemist. You're putting tears in my eyes and insulting my studies. Oxidation is merely the LOSS of electrons, often this results in converting a hydrogen->carboxyl (notice the y) group. There are lots of other examples of redox reactions but that is neither here nor there. Decarboxylation is the LOSS of CO2, which as a small stable gas molecule, is what we call a good leaving group. I'm not sure what you mean by basic form of refinement, but I'm more than certain its wrong.

the machines Pfizer uses will decarboxilate the product while it is capturing it

Low heat for several days is more than enough to induce decarboxYlation.

More specifically, PCT/GB02/00620 describes a process wherein: step 1 comprises heating chopped cannabis (2 3 mm) at 100 150° C. for sufficient time to allow decarboxylation; step 2 comprises CO2 extraction using: a) a coarse powder(the particles are passed through a 3 mm mesh); b) a packing density of 0.3; and c) supercritical conditions of 600 bar at 35° C. for 4 hours, although other combinations of temp and pressure ranging from 10 35° C. and 60 600 bar (bothsuper critical and sub critical conditions) could, it is acknowledged, be used; and step 3 comprises conducting an ethanolic precipitation at -20° C. for 24 hours and removing the waxy material by filtration.

There is even a patent for the sc-CO2 extraction AND decarboxylation of THC, CBD, etc. here!


I've read the book and followed the instruction of a very prominent figure in the sc-CO2 scene. His book is one of the forerunners -- he has been doing research in sc-CO2 for a VERY long time. I made sure to get in contact with him before I graduated and moved to CO because I've been interested in these setups for awhile.

This is the future and is a necessity. Cost and convenience should not be a reason to bypass health and safety (if people really are in it for the medicinal value). Although I admit BHO has matured quite well in the processing in the last five years, it is still a mere crutch until we reach the best quality, and as they call it in industry, GRAS -- Generally Regarded As Safe.

 

[Graywolf]

After seeing how many contributors to this thread are now off line. I hesitate, but at my age there is hardly anything anyone can say to me that hasn't been said before and some of it was true.

For what it's worth, here is my take on C02 super critical fluid extraction.

Please it with a grain of salt, as my back ground is not pharma, but designing equipment and processes for aerospace.

I am emboldened, because I have designed high pressure systems to 10ksi and worked with them to 26ksi at 3,000F, as well as used cryogenics.

A solvent becomes a super solvent when it reaches super critical state, which in the case of C02 is only 1072 psi at 88F.

If you put liquid C02 in a closed container and heated it, 1072 psi is easy to achieve.

At cryogenic temperatures, material selection is critical, so typically 300 series stainless is used for cryogenic vessels. It would be easy to construct such a vessel using a section of Schedule 160 304L stainless pipe with a 3,600 psi burst.

I could buy 50 gallons of liquid C02 in a dip tube Dewar the last time I checked, for about $115, which makes it cheaper than gasoline.

You could pre-pressure your stainless vessel with the plant material in it to about 150 psi, so that the liquid C02 didn't instantly turn to dry ice when you started filling the vessel and still have enough pressure differential in the Dewar to transfer the liquid phase. That means no pumps or compressors of any kind would be required.

Simple pipe heaters on the outside of the pressure vessel would easily bring it up to temperature and a back pressure regulator would prevent you from over pressuring and rupturing the vessel.

After soak, the liquid could be easily transfered to a recovery vessel using differential pressure and bled off to leave behind the oil.

Attached is a simple minded schematic of how extraction portion of such a system might work. The recovery portion is not shown.

 

[Ohiofarmer]

EU - Your not worth responding too, you say that i'm wrong...nope i'm not even gonna say anything lol

MT - Eden labs is a good source for this technology

Graywolf - always glad to hear what you have to say about the oil scene.

Take it easy guys.

 

[EuDiesel]

EU - Your not worth responding too, you say that i'm wrong...nope i'm not even gonna say anything lol

MT - Eden labs is a good source for this technology

Graywolf - always glad to hear what you have to say about the oil scene.

Take it easy guys.

That's just funny. Anything in particular or 'I just don't know.'

Show me that Pfizer owns a patent on 'all supercritical CO2 systems.'

I'll show you a copy of my degree.

 

[EuDiesel]

Hey ohiofarmer, I cannot message you but if you'd like to see a picture of a supercritical CO2 system in use for oil I'd love to disprove you.

 

[squiggly]

I Just want to make it clear to people....so that people don't try and take everything i say for a grain of salt so hard that they argue with every single thing i say.

All i am saying is that you Will Not get ahold of a industrial or pharmaceutical grade, cold pressure extractor(aka supercritical fluid extractor), without alot of money and without proper licensing. I am fully aware that there are scco2 machines for sale on the internet and that you can even buy the more expensive bigger models for upwards of 100 k, i'm simply making people aware that the scco2 machines out there now that you guys are talking about are gimmicks. The scco2 machines you guys are talking about are not even chemists certified machines....they don't even contain chemistry equipment and they cost over 30 k? So i was simply stating that rather then buy your own non-complete scco2 machine online like many people as well as collectives etc. do you can just buy organic chemistry equipment online and build the same thing for under 500 dollars and run it in your basement. And thanks to whoever that was that said all people from ohio are just a bunch of pillheads........b/c some people on the farm are from ohio, so obviously where not pillheads. And to let you know the real scco2 that is patented by Pfizer is over 1 mill for the simplest model, and that's because it uses very very expensive organic chemistry equipment(macro-glass beads are one of these very expensive things)

PARTICLE SIZE DISTRIBUTION
Diameter (μm) Percent retain (%)
> 1180 0
1180 - 850 5 – 20
850 - 425 65 – 95
< 425 0 – 10
STANDARD BS6088-1981 CLASS B
PHYSICS AND CHEMISTRY FUNCTION
Item Standard
Specific gravity, g/cm3 2,4 – 2,6
Refractive index > / = 1,5
Spherical beads (%) > 80
PARTICLE SIZE DISTRIBUTION
Diameter (μm) Percent retain (%)
> 850 0 - 5
600 - 850 5 – 20
300 - 600 30 - 75
180 - 300 10 - 30
< 180 0 - 10
STANDARD EN1423 125-710μm
PHYSICS AND CHEMISTRY FUNCTION
Item Standard
Specific gravity, g/cm3 2,4 – 2,6
Refractive index > / = 1,5
Spherical beads (%) > 80
PARTICLE SIZE DISTRIBUTION
Diameter (μm) Percent retain (%)
710 0 - 2
600 0 – 10
355 30 - 70
212 70 - 100
125 95 - 100
STANDARD EN1423 125-850μm
OhioFarmer Industrial Co.,Ltd.
For Evaluation Only.
Tel:086
......... there i even included a single glass beads displacement chart from my labs above^ ( in chemistry glass beads act as one of the many ways to effectivly recapture solvents in a true scco2 setup. however glass beads are the cheapest way, this chart is porportioned for a soxhlet apparatus) for you to see, and for ANY substance to become pure it has to "cure" also knowen as oxidative redox reaction, which takes individual redox groups, groups of hydrocarbons,which then realease hydrogen in exchange for oxygen, which then makes them physcho active. this entire process is AKA oxidation which converts a raw unpure product into a pure crystalline structure,it does this through decarboxilation(the most basic form of refinement in Organic Chemistry),the machines Pfizer uses will decarboxilate the product while it is capturing it, (hence a large reason why they are so expensive), thats why the longer you let it "cure" the harder/denser/danker it becomes. Anything else you wanna no you can look up, the people on the farm making real medicine probally already know what i am saying. And if you don't want somone to flame you then educate yourself first before you go calling people with their doctorates in Organic Chemistry, dumbass pillpopping ohioians. Take it easy Brothas and just cause the "oil" is traslucent doesn't mean it's pure or that it's good, the best oils look more like dark molasses or really dark amber honey. :mad0233: hahaha Take it easy Y'all. :afroweed: (sorry for spelling errors)

Don't Panic! Grow Organic!

Oil to cure pain,oil to get blamed.

You definitely cannot decarboxylate anything in fluid co2. This is literally the best way possible to protect against decarboxylation, cold temperature, high pressure, disolved in co2. As decarboxylation is the loss of a co2 group and low pressure and hig temperature are the optimal conditions--it really does not get much better than this.

The non-pfizer brands of extractors are completely legit and operate based on the same science. They have different designs and may be less efficient, but i assure you the underlying chemistry is sound. At issue here is desired purity. At pfizer there is a certain level of chemical hygiene required because many of their products can be toxic if they go thru undesired reactions along the way. When one of the enantiomers of the drug you create causes babies to grow flippers, it is important that you not--for lack of a better way to say it--fuck it up. This level of purity and production efficiency (less loss of desired chemicals/solvents) is absolutrly not necessary for extracting cannabinoids. Your argument is way off base. Furthermore no licensing is required to operate this type of machinery.

Source: I am an organic chemistry graduate student.

 

[SCFSYNDICATE760]

wow..i love it..someone comes on here says some shit..some crazy shit i may add..then gets capped on..then types some huge science paper that some are now saying makes no sense??...bwahahahahaah god i love the net..

as far as the co2 through glas tube into a pot for co2 oil? im gonna have to say bullshit on that one.
how much are they like 5 gs or something? prob dont work at all...300 bucks worth of cool looking parts..id bet money..
maybe im wrong, and a sci person could chime in, but as i understood it to be a solvent co2 needs to be liquid..to stay liquid it has to be cold and pressurized? no? not gonna get much pressure or old blowing through an open tube....
just my thoughts..sounds like snake oil..
see i heard rumors about doing this with like a paintball c02 tank n just rigging it up to a tube and blamo..diy co2 oil...i dont think it works that way..
anyone?

 

[squiggly]

Basically the only thing you got wrong is that it needs to be hot and pressurized for the application everyone is talking about.

Needs to be about 75atm (~55,000 mmHg, or ~1000psi ) and around 320K/50C/120F-ish (im guesstimating from a phase diagram). After that point it is supercritical and varying the temperature/pressure will allow you to selectively solvate molecules. In order to keep it liquid (not supercritical) you could keep it slightly colder than the critical point at the same pressure and it will then just be a liquid. Extraction will proceed here--but will not be as selective.

The reason this stuff is expensive is because fine control of temperature and pressure is required in order to achieve the selective solvation--it is even more difficult to maintain this when you have bud or another solid mixed into the solvent rather than just a liquid there. The most important variables in supercritcal solvation are density of the solvent and temperature of the solvent. With constant density increased temperature will increase solubility--but tiny changes in temperature in the supercritical phase can significantly effect density. Increasing density is associated with greater solubility and is achieved by increasing pressure; however increasing pressure increases the temperature.

You see now perhaps why this is such a difficult thing to do--very precise control and knowledge of what's happening inside a closed vessel are required for this process. Where precision is concerned is when the $$$ starts piling up--so it is with scientific instruments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Carbon_dioxide_pressure-temperature_phase_diagram.svg

Hope that clears some of it up.

 

[squiggly]

Supercritical extraction allows controlled solvation of molecules based on their densities. With proper technique an extract taken using this method would be significantly more pure than one obtained with a sub-critical extraction.

That is essentially the point of supercritical extraction in the first place. Yes, it is prohibitively expensive--but that's not because it does the job worse, it should in fact be much better at excluding waxes and the like if used properly. We don't typically see something with diminished capability costing orders of magnitude more, and requiring more dangerous conditions. In such a case the cheaper, safer, technology would always win out.

 

[Graywolf]

One thing that I noted in the patents for C02 extraction, is that it doesn't appear to be a fast process and involves a large amount of fluid exchange.

I lost interest in building one at that point, because adding a pumping step adds significantly to costs.

It did occur to me that a simple minded way to accomplish that step, without pumps or excessive liquid CO2 usage, might be to build the extraction column with a receiving vessel on both ends, and simply rotate the column like a ferris wheel on its central axis, so that the solvent flowed back and forth between them.

I didn't check back to see if it has already been posted, but attached is a good video that shows what liquid CO2 looks like, when it reaches super critical state.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEr3NxsPTOA&feature=related