SweetLeafGrow said:

I flipped the light to 12/12 on this girl on November 15, and as previously discussed with Max, his girl and mine both did not show distinct flowers for two weeks so I will use the first of Dec as my guide for nutrient modifications. With that in mind, today would be day 21 and the end of week 3. I think the flowers are looking very nice

Click to expand...

I agree.

OK man, first I just gotta say I love the way you log your grows. The detail is really great.

Lots to reply to there but I'll just compare this to golf, I'm sure you've heard of it. Little white ball... you whack it...

You are playing PAR golf (yes that was a pun) You have mastered the RDWC system and setpoints, and are being successful. You are outgrowing I dunno 80% of the people trying this. The only thing you lack now is experience. But follow your gut, it's gotten you this far.

SweetLeafGrow said:

She is so bushy, I have become concerned about possible mold issues. I moved my oscillating fan to blow on the lower part of the plant on high speed and pulled the other less strong fan up to blow above the canopy, it too on high speed. There is also an 8" inline fan pulling air out of the tent and that is on about 80% depending on humidity levels.

I've already done a lot of defoliation and wonder if I should do more or if I have enough air movement to not worry much about mold etc., I think now would be the time to do it if I am going to. I understand defoliation and do it but have never been a big fan of pulling off all the fan leaves, I can't help but think they feed the flowers somehow and perhaps I am wrong there, I'm still learning. Lots of frost on even the fan leaves too, hate to cut em all of if I don't have/need to. I've taken occasional fan leaves off and she is definitely sticky as all get out....and loud, she smells so good already.

Click to expand...

Yes, she is so wide. This genetic is very interesting. Yours and Max's are very different. We'll see what I get.

What is your RH, and do you have a historical chart you can show. If not, I'll hook you up with the hardware to do it. My concern for you is the lights out RH. Within a few minutes of lights out you will get an RH spike which is expected. Especially in a heavily respiring RDWC. Question is what happens to RH as lights cool off? If you are not able to get the RH back down to the <55% range after the spike, like within an hour or so, you are inviting mold and we need to address it. Bud rot, PM, all that shit can suck a dick.

About pulling any more vegetation, you follow your gut and find your happy style of growing, as long as your RH is good. If it is too high, my first advice is gonna be snip that shit, you know it's coming lol.

SweetLeafGrow said:

@Moe.Red, I do have a question or two about the res. I've been shooting for the low end of the aggressive (high end of the medium) feed as she has been handling that well. I went full on aggressive and it was too much so backed it off so now been aiming for that 1000 ppm, which is the high end of the medium feed. She has been drinking and I believe eating as well. I have noticed top offs that brought me right back to where I was on ppms the day before, and then there have been top offs that ended with lower ppms, which I assume is the plant eating. I hope I am understanding that correctly. So the question is, should I try to maintain that 1000 ppm number when I see it drop, to say 900? That is about where I am today and just amended the res last Sunday. Or should I wait and let her eat and then amend on that weekly Sunday schedule? My first thought is to keep that ppm up.

Click to expand...

Why did your PPM not drop but water had left the res, presumably via respiration. Really think about it. That would imply the plant has a filter that says no thanks, I'm good on salts, I just want the water. If they can do that, how can we overfeed them? No I think there is a drop in the salts you added but something else has taken it's place. Exudates is the term you want to google. Your plants are talking to the rhizosphere. That's what I think happened in your case, but I don't actually know.

Root Exudates and Soilless Culture​

In the early days of hydroponics there was concern that the organic matter, dead root cells and compounds released by roots would accumulate in the limited root zone and nutrient solution to the point where it promoted disease and retarded growth.

It was quickly proven that this isn’t the case, and we have come to understand in more detail how the dynamics of a restricted root zone works. Methods designed to disinfect and remove organic compounds or frequent nutrient solution changes were sometimes used to control the buildup of these exudates, but studies have shown this is not necessarily beneficial.

When microbial populations are permitted to develop in healthy hydroponic systems, they break down and metabolize carbon compounds in the root zone or nutrient solution, so this sort of buildup doesn’t occur when all is working well.

Plant roots develop and react in hydroponic systems similar to soil-based systems. Diverse and beneficial microbe species are found in a wide range of different soilless systems, and certain exudates released by roots are used by the plant to attract and select certain micro-organisms in the rhizopshere.

These microbes can then work, via different mechanisms, to influence plant health and growth. For example, root exudates act as signals that encourage and initiate a relationship with rhizobia and mycorrhizal fungi as well as rhizo-bacteria.

When plant roots sense an attack by pathogenic microbes, this triggers the release of certain exudates called phytoalexins or defence proteins and other unknown compounds in a process of underground chemical warfare



So are your salts being taken into the plant? Are they being taken up in the same proportion that you are adding them? So many freaking variables man. Without measurements via sap, you will never actually know, so you gotta follow your gut. I guess this is where the horticultural talent thing comes in. If you get too far out of whack change out the res. FWIW I have yet to drain the res in my current grow and I'm further along than you. I do not follow the recipe any more. I'm playing with things and measuring brix to see what I can teach myself.

SweetLeafGrow said:

The other question I have is the GH feeding chart recommends reducing the ppms at week 6 and then a gradual decrease to harvest. Is this something I should follow? I'm reading the plants but using the chart as a general starting place. So far this approach is serving me well and I am learning a lot!

Click to expand...

I agree you are doing great and should follow your gut. If you follow the recipe you will continue to shoot par. Or maybe you are feeling like you want to try for a birdie? Trust yourself, and back off fast if you make a mistake. You got this.

SweetLeafGrow said:

One last question- I know I shouldn't think about additives yet...but since things are going well, I do have a product called Flower Stacker by Humboldts Secret nutrients line, which I have used with soil and liked it very much.

Flower Stacker

Offering liquid phosphorus and potassium fertilizer for plants, we will help you take care of your garden! Browse our plant growing nutrients for sale today!

humboldtssecretsupplies.com

I've always used it as directed starting in week 3 of flower till the end at the suggested rates per gallon. Do I dare incorporate this into the res? Now would be the time to do it if I were to go down that road. Thanks!

Click to expand...

Again, you do you and find your grow style. Going back to the golf analogy, lots of players shoot better than par every day. Pros have bad days too. If you want to try without committing to adding it to the res, apply it foliar on just part of the plant. It's just P&K, which you are already giving them tons of thru the roots. Maybe. Sometimes. When the PPM goes down? lol. Just understand that adding this on top of the recipe is no longer following the recipe. Birdie or bogie if you add this bottle?

Yeah - it's a puzzle man. The fun is trying to figure stuff like this out by puttering with this or that. You know you can get back to this stable state you are in, hydro responds quick, and you have your hand on the throttle. What fun would it be not to use it!

I thought this is pretty interesting



What many underestimate is the actual volume of root exudates that are secreted, as it’s not possible to see or judge what may be occurring in the rhizosphere. The vast array of compounds plant roots excrete can account for between 5 and 21% of the photosynthetically fixed carbon, which is a significant cost to the plant.

For that reason, the plant must obtain some benefit from secreting compounds into its rhizosphere and this is something researchers are investigating. These root exudates consist of organic compounds such as amino acids, organic acids, sugars, a wide range of carbohydrates, phenolics, lignins, fatty acids, sterols, enzymes, mucilage and proteins, and also released ions and inorganic acids.




The guys that run sterile are shutting off a huge part of the plant's processes. All of that is wasted by the plant if there is not benes to use it.

Thanks Moe, lots to digest here. I will have to read up on the root exudates and how that might be effecting everything, just trying to understand the numbers as I see them and make sense of it all.

Moe.Red said:

What is your RH, and do you have a historical chart you can show. If not, I'll hook you up with the hardware to do it. My concern for you is the lights out RH. Within a few minutes of lights out you will get an RH spike which is expected. Especially in a heavily respiring RDWC. Question is what happens to RH as lights cool off? If you are not able to get the RH back down to the <55% range after the spike, like within an hour or so, you are inviting mold and we need to address it. Bud rot, PM, all that shit can suck a dick.

About pulling any more vegetation, you follow your gut and find your happy style of growing, as long as your RH is good. If it is too high, my first advice is gonna be snip that shit, you know it's coming lol.

Click to expand...

I do not have any charts to log temp and RH. So the RH has not been a problem at all except for the tent next to this one in the same room where I want a higher RH during veg. It's been so cold and the furnace is working hard, which naturally brings the RH way down, for us it's in the 20% range in the house, very dry. I have a large humidifier running hard in the room but I have to leave the door open to let warm air in so that humidifier is working the whole half of the house and been having a hard time getting the RH over about 40% in the room. During lights on, this tent has been around 35%, 78F in there this afternoon, I'm also using the inline fan to pull dryer air in when needed. I checked this evening an hour after lights off as you suggested and the RH had jumped to 47%, never seen that get out of hand yet on this grow and I thought that acceptable with all the air flow I have going on. She is a bush though and so I will keep a close eye, perhaps some more leaf removal but I'm not thinking I need too much.

SweetLeafGrow said:

Thanks Moe, lots to digest here. I will have to read up on the root exudates and how that might be effecting everything, just trying to understand the numbers as I see them and make sense of it all.


I do not have any charts to log temp and RH. So the RH has not been a problem at all except for the tent next to this one and the same room where I want a higher RH during veg. It's been so cold and the furnace is working hard, which naturally brings the RH way down, for us it's in the 20% range in the house, very dry. I have a large humidifier running hard in the room but I have to leave the door open to let warm air in so that humidifier is working the whole half of the house and been having a hard time getting the RH over about 40% in the room. During lights on, this tent has been around 35%, 78F in there this afternoon, I'm also using the inline fan to pull dryer air in when needed. I checked this evening an hour after lights off as you suggested and the RH had jumped to 47%, never seen that get out of hand yet on this grow and I thought that acceptable with all the air flow I have going on. She is a bush though and so I will keep a close eye, perhaps some more leaf removal but I'm not thinking I need too much.

Click to expand...

Nope you are good. If anything too low on rh. I do not expect there to be any mold issues on this healthy plant. You can play defoliating any way you want.

Hey 2 more things. Cheyenne Wyoming dropped 30* in 10 minutes last night. Fuuuuuuck.

2nd thing you will not always have this environmental protection but right now I doubt a team of scientists who get paid for every pm spore they can capture out of the air near you could find any. They are everywhere floating in the air normally, but you don’t get pm in Antarctica for a reason. You might as well be growing on the moon with your -40* crap you got going on now.

Chugging along and from what I can tell these flowers will not be small. They seem to be chunking up nicely for just over 3 weeks in flower...at least 5 weeks left and I am very optimistic. If any regrets, I would have vegged a week or two longer.

I opted out of any additives, too many questions in my mind about maintaining the proper ratios if I did that, gonna stick with my gut which says proceed with caution, stay the course, and keep it simple.

Looking excellent! Doing her justice for sure! Merry Christmas to you and yours!

Thanks Bro, Merry Christmas to you as well fam!

Merry Christmas Farm Fam!

I'm looking at the plant this morning and not sure if I am seeing something I need to be concerned about or not. First, she seems to be a fairly deep dark green, perhaps too much N?

Also, this morning I pulled a few fans off, it so crowded I am concerned about air flow. Lots of the fan leaves are deformed, some worse than others. I assume this could be because everything is so crowded the leaves are growing in funny shapes and deformations, see pics. I also see a very small number of burnt leaf tips, not terrible. One leaf on the lower part of the plant was showing something but not sure if it's just the wind from the fan blowing on it, right in that area its getting a lot from that oscillating fan, but looked almost like some sort of deficiency.

Anyhow, I was going to amend the res yesterday and didn't get the time but going to do that this morning. PPM's sitting in the low 800's, looking to bring that up to around 1050-1100.

Any thoughts from the experts is appreciated!

Mery Christmas man!
Increasing ppm when you see dark green indicative of excess N?
Are you switching to flower ferts?
Don't mind me, not even close to you or Moe yet.
Mostly wanted to pass on well wishes and a third eye.

Yup you got this. Noticing this right away is where you want your head to be when pushing.

This is where you want to make a single adjustment right now and wait a day. Pick one. Defoliate? Up nutes? Lower nutes? Lights?

For me I would not have seen this because those lower fan leaves would be gone. Good on you for leaving them.

The grow I am in right now topped out at 600 ppm due to burn. Every grow is different.

Your issue could be many things. Change one thing and try to cut the number of possible issues in half. If you are not willing to take chances start with a fresh res at 800 ppm and you will be back on the fairway and can rule out everything in the root zone as the issue. Then look at things above ground if it continues. That’s sorta the nuclear option at this early stage. Your call.

steamroller said:

Mery Christmas man!
Increasing ppm when you see dark green indicative of excess N?
Are you switching to flower ferts?
Don't mind me, not even close to you or Moe yet.
Mostly wanted to pass on well wishes and a third eye.

Click to expand...

Posted at the same time. Merry Christmas and happy new year to you and everyone. 2023 is gonna be great.

Moe.Red said:

Yup you got this. Noticing this right away is where you want your head to be when pushing.

This is where you want to make a single adjustment right now and wait a day. Pick one. Defoliate? Up nutes? Lower nutes? Lights?

For me I would not have seen this because those lower fan leaves would be gone. Good on you for leaving them.

The grow I am in right now topped out at 600 ppm due to burn. Every grow is different.

Click to expand...

Thank you Moe for your thought inspiring words.

I was talking about you to my wife the other day and telling her how you remind me of some college professors I've studied under. They never give the answers you want to hear! but it's always the right answer to get you thinking for yourself instead of being spoon fed. You do this and I told her I would not be surprised to find out you are a college prof. If you are not, you certainly have those traits and I thank you for being my guide and mentor.

After reading your advice and thinking more on this, I am thinking it would be folly for me to try to up the ppm's, I think I am seeing signs of excess. I think my main focus at this point should be nutrients as I do not think over crowding would cause the issues I am seeing. I think I will continue to pull some fans off a little at a time but I think at this time I will dilute the res to LOWER the nutes by 100 ppm or so and see what that does over the next couple of days. If I see any signs of deficiency, I will bump it back up.

I always have the nuclear option as you say, but I want to avoid that as the res buffer is really locked in at this point and I don't want to lose that.

SweetLeafGrow said:

Thank you Moe for your thought inspiring words.

I was talking about you to my wife the other day and telling her how you remind me of some college professors I've studied under. They never give the answers you want to hear! but it's always the right answer to get you thinking for yourself instead of being spoon fed. You do this and I told her I would not be surprised to find out you are a college prof. If you are not, you certainly have those traits and I thank you for being my guide and mentor.

After reading your advice and thinking more on this, I am thinking it would be folly for me to try to up the ppm's, I think I am seeing signs of excess. I think my main focus at this point should be nutrients as I do not think over crowding would cause the issues I am seeing. I think I will continue to pull some fans off a little at a time but I think at this time I will dilute the res to LOWER the nutes by 100 ppm or so and see what that does over the next couple of days. If I see any signs of deficiency, I will bump it back up.

I always have the nuclear option as you say, but I want to avoid that as the res buffer is really locked in at this point and I don't want to lose that.

Click to expand...

Great plan.

Every issue you have from now on is a learning opportunity rather than an emergency. You are a different grower now.

OK, brought her down by about 100ppm, gonna watch close. I was also going to up the ppms on my Mendel grow but decided against that at this time for the same reasons.

Moe.Red said:

Every issue you have from now on is a learning opportunity rather than an emergency. You are a different grower now.

Click to expand...

Indeed, so much different in a good, most excellent way

steamroller said:

Increasing ppm when you see dark green indicative of excess N?

Click to expand...

Wise words bro and helped me make my decision. I still have to resist the urge to throw everything plus the kitchen sink at them

Merry Christmas to you as well!

Cruising along, almost a full 6 weeks since flip, roughly 4 weeks since onset of flower and things are getting exciting!

The lower ppms have been working great, most of the dark green has disappeared, ph has been super stable, very gradual rise.

Moe.Red said:

The grow I am in right now topped out at 600 ppm due to burn. Every grow is different.

Click to expand...

Sure been a lesson in the differences between strains and their varying nutrient uptake needs. I totally see why you wanted me to throw the GH charts out now Moe....they can be used as a general reference guide and THAT is all. The young Aether is feeding hard and appears to still be hungry at 750 ppm while this Mac Dragon later in flower is only wanting 6-650 ppm, and that is probably pushing it. If I were to be following the GH charts these things would be fried and I would be scrambling to figure out what is wrong. Thanks buddy

Looking awesome bro!

Those plants are ready for more light if you got it.

I got the new net cup holder design done, just got to print and test it. It is mounted to the top via plastic nuts, and has a twist lock feature that prevents the edges from lifting up. I'll send you some when I get them dialed in.

I know you are sick of hearing this from me, but that tiny bud bottom center of the first pic - larf.

I'm really happy your colas are putting on weight. Since we are talking nutes, a higher level of N at this point will help with adding bud mass. It also can hamper THC production in massive qtys. If I were you, I'd keep up the green and brown at close to the same ratio as pink right now to try to build buds. Then in a couple weeks when half your pistils are brown, start to taper off on both.

Pink has Sulphur, that is good for terps. How does she smell?

Moe.Red said:

Those plants are ready for more light if you got it.

Click to expand...

Not at the moment, but it looks like I will be able to finish the last few weeks with the new Scynce Raging Kush II that I will be ordering soon. Looking forward to dialing in the light spectrum for the final weeks of this grow.

Moe.Red said:

I got the new net cup holder design done, just got to print and test it. It is mounted to the top via plastic nuts, and has a twist lock feature that prevents the edges from lifting up. I'll send you some when I get them dialed in.

Click to expand...

Awesomeness, thank you!

Moe.Red said:

I know you are sick of hearing this from me, but that tiny bud bottom center of the first pic - larf.

Click to expand...

LOL I almost chopped that one. I'm having a time redefining the term "tiny" in my vocabulary.

Moe.Red said:

I'm really happy your colas are putting on weight. Since we are talking nutes, a higher level of N at this point will help with adding bud mass. It also can hamper THC production in massive qtys. If I were you, I'd keep up the green and brown at close to the same ratio as pink right now to try to build buds. Then in a couple weeks when half your pistils are brown, start to taper off on both.

Pink has Sulphur, that is good for terps. How does she smell?

Click to expand...

OK, so this has me thinking. My thoughts are, OK, I can raise the green and brown, no problem. To get that in line with the pink, I'm thinking it would require about 3ml per gallon of each. With 14 gallons as our res size, that would be an additional 42 ml of each to get roughly to the same ratio as the pink.

Thinking out loud here....I'm already at a total ppm that I believe is riding the razors edge, not sure I want that any higher. So if I were to wing it here with these ratios and based on what I am learning, I would add that 42 ml of brown and green, let it settle and check ppm. Then dilute the res with plain RO to get the final ppm to that 650-700 range where things are riding atm.

The aromas are wonderful, I'm not so good at identifying all the smells, but she is strong and loud, sticky as all get out.

SweetLeafGrow said:

OK, so this has me thinking. My thoughts are, OK, I can raise the green and brown, no problem. To get that in line with the pink, I'm thinking it would require about 3ml per gallon of each. With 14 gallons as our res size, that would be an additional 42 ml of each to get roughly to the same ratio as the pink.

Thinking out loud here....I'm already at a total ppm that I believe is riding the razors edge, not sure I want that any higher. So if I were to wing it here with these ratios and based on what I am learning, I would add that 42 ml of brown and green, let it settle and check ppm. Then dilute the res with plain RO to get the final ppm to that 650-700 range where things are riding atm.

Click to expand...

Ever seen Mulder's Chart?



For example, there is no direct interaction between N and P. So while you are raising PPM as measured by your meter, adding N to a P rich res will not cause burn. If you are getting too much P, that can cause issues. Same with too much N. But if you have the right amount of P and add N too it, you should not expect burn unless you would have gotten that separately from the N.

I don't know if I am explaining this with the right words, does this make any sense?

What would make your job easier is if the TDS pen read P, N, K, Mg, Ca separately. 800PPM of just P is very different than 800PPM of N+P+K+++...

Generally it is the pink that causes burning. If you are on the razor's edge, back that off a little. Adding a little N at that point should not cause burns, but your PPM might be the same. Where you could run into issues is with the K / N antagonism. Higher N can make K less available.

Bottom line, you do not have the data to perfectly predict what your nute additions will do. But you know what you added, and you can see how the plants respond. This is where the art of growing takes over. Unless you want to drop a couple thousand on sap test meters lol. But the brix meter is cheap and will give you some additional feedback / data if you want to play with that.