Fogponics. As good or better than Hydro?

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Moe.Red

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It seems several listened to him explaining Brix and went out and purchased a meter. I believe Doc said 14 percent sugar content is what you are shooting for but 12 and above is really good.
Yup that’s what I’d did. Still learning.

reading up on it now. Could even be higher than 12. Goes up closer you are to harvest if you do it right.

Lots of info out there on melons and grapes, less solid info on cannabis. Still looking.
 
Anthem

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Yup that’s what I’d did. Still learning.

reading up on it now. Could even be higher than 12. Goes up closer you are to harvest if you do it right.

Lots of info out there on melons and grapes, less solid info on cannabis. Still looking.
I am just going off of personal experience but if we take a look at an average summer fruiting tree and a cannabis plant I doubt they will have the same Brix in the leaves. After about say week 6 of 12/12 with a cannabis plant the actually fan leaves start looking worse than the beginning of flower. Where as the summer fruit tree. Say a plum or a peach still look decent. It will be interesting to see what you find!
 
PipeCarver

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I am pretty sure I know what is happening based on the cultivars. GG4i is a known heavy feeder. While GSC is a known PITA. Up the feeding on the back oned
Both of them are I guess, I ran the Gelato the last time and screwed her up then too I keep thinking I'm giving them enough but I guess not. I've another run with these in clones at about 1 month old from the flowering moma's I don't give them a lot of food in veg then when its flower time I seem to run out of time to bump up the nutes before I see yellow. They got a full feed yesterday of 5/5/10/1-1/4 tsp / Kool Bloom/ 1 ml Floralicious, 2 ml ph up............ I used to feed as high as 10/10/15..... but the farm here persuaded me to cut back on nutes......lol........I'll get it yet.....I still have time.... a few more years I'll have this grow thing down...lol
 
PerfecTrader

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Both of them are I guess, I ran the Gelato the last time and screwed her up then too I keep thinking I'm giving them enough but I guess not. I've another run with these in clones at about 1 month old from the flowering moma's I don't give them a lot of food in veg then when its flower time I seem to run out of time to bump up the nutes before I see yellow. They got a full feed yesterday of 5/5/10/1-1/4 tsp / Kool Bloom/ 1 ml Floralicious, 2 ml ph up............ I used to feed as high as 10/10/15..... but the farm here persuaded me to cut back on nutes......lol........I'll get it yet.....I still have time.... a few more years I'll have this grow thing down...lol
May have missed it but what were your brix #s?
 
PerfecTrader

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😯 good explanation here for newbskis like mwah

"Conclusion​

Brix is an easy method of understanding how your plants are performing during the grow. Brix gives the grower an indication of how healthy or unhealthy the plant is. It allows growers to get a glimpse into the future of the plant’s lifecycle. It is important to have your brix level at 12 to ensure the plant is poised for a good yield. By adding supplements to the watering schedule, the plant can easily go above a brix level of 20 — the most desired level on the cannabis market.

By using a simple brix refractometer, growers can expect the heaviest and tastiest buds they have ever produced."
 
Anthem

Anthem

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😯 good explanation here for newbskis like mwah

"Conclusion​

Brix is an easy method of understanding how your plants are performing during the grow. Brix gives the grower an indication of how healthy or unhealthy the plant is. It allows growers to get a glimpse into the future of the plant’s lifecycle. It is important to have your brix level at 12 to ensure the plant is poised for a good yield. By adding supplements to the watering schedule, the plant can easily go above a brix level of 20 — the most desired level on the cannabis market.

By using a simple brix refractometer, growers can expect the heaviest and tastiest buds they have ever produced."
Hey I mean no harm here but I would not trust a single thing from a magazine article. A specialty magazine is about as worse at it gets. I have dealt with this in the past. Good luck with our grows!!!
 
PerfecTrader

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Hey I mean no harm here but I would not trust a single thing from a magazine article. A specialty magazine is about as worse at it gets. I have dealt with this in the past. Good luck with our grows!!!
Zero taken at all and I trust your experience more than a random article. I wish I knew what parts of it are hogwash though. It seemed to be saying what I thought you all were. Basically I took it as it can be used to measure the health of your plant, it changes as the plant matures, and a reading of 10-12+ before harvest is something to strive for. I checked the cannabis grow bible and surprisingly there is no info. It is a very easy tool to use and I'd like to learn as much as can about it.
 
Anthem

Anthem

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Zero taken at all and I trust your experience more than a random article. I wish I knew what parts of it are hogwash though. It seemed to be saying what I thought you all were. Basically I took it as it can be used to measure the health of your plant, it changes as the plant matures, and a reading of 10-12+ before harvest is something to strive for. I checked the cannabis grow bible and surprisingly there is no info. It is a very easy tool to use and I'd like to learn as much as can about it.
I have to be honest.Once I read where it came from I posted that response. I will read it tomorrow and repost.
 
Moe.Red

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I came across the maximum yield article last night too when I was trying to find answers. It felt a little “buzzfeedy” to me. Talked about the concept with no specific info.

I’m still looking for a proper source but thinking this will need to come from experience in the community.

If I can’t find anything definitive I’ll put something together during the next fog grow and ask you guys to help me with the conclusions. The way my setup works I could learn a lot in a single grow.
 
Anthem

Anthem

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I have to be honest.Once I read where it came from I posted that response. I will read it tomorrow and repost.
Well I read the article and a second one at the bottom of the first article was a link to a second article. Both had different percentages for healthy Brix with the second one having it at 12 percent and the first 20 plus. Also they mentioned adding sugars to your nutrient mix to increase the sugars in the plant. My understanding is the cannabis plant cannot uptake sugar. So if my understand is correct than I would probably consider the remainder of the information to be generally lacking in accuracy. They really did not go into what specifically can raise the Brix. Just generalities as if they either know and did not want to say too much or they are just as clueless as the rest of us.
if my memory serves me correct Dr. Green said this is just another tool to determine the overall health of the plant and in the first article they stated Brix in the 20 to 30 percent. To me that sound really high. I looked up the Brix of fruit juices and I got OJ at 11 and passion fruit at 15 percent. To me that discredits any idea of a leaf Brix of 20 to 30 percent. I do not believe the information in the article is accurate.
 
PerfecTrader

PerfecTrader

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Well I read the article and a second one at the bottom of the first article was a link to a second article. Both had different percentages for healthy Brix with the second one having it at 12 percent and the first 20 plus. Also they mentioned adding sugars to your nutrient mix to increase the sugars in the plant. My understanding is the cannabis plant cannot uptake sugar. So if my understand is correct than I would probably consider the remainder of the information to be generally lacking in accuracy. They really did not go into what specifically can raise the Brix. Just generalities as if they either know and did not want to say too much or they are just as clueless as the rest of us.
if my memory serves me correct Dr. Green said this is just another tool to determine the overall health of the plant and in the first article they stated Brix in the 20 to 30 percent. To me that sound really high. I looked up the Brix of fruit juices and I got OJ at 11 and passion fruit at 15 percent. To me that discredits any idea of a leaf Brix of 20 to 30 percent. I do not believe the information in the article is accurate.
Roger that and sorry to anyone whom felt I was posting it for its accuracy. As someone who had just received one, I did however find their basic explanation easy to grasp. I also raised an eyebrow at the 20-30 and always take everything I read with a grain of salt.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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Roger that and sorry to anyone whom felt I was posting it for its accuracy. As someone who had just received one, I did however find their basic explanation easy to grasp. I also raised an eyebrow at the 20-30 and always take everything I read with a grain of salt.
Man you can post whatever you want on my thread. We can figure this out together.

I just posted this on gnick’s thread cause he has a deep deep palate of music, but here is the vinyl I got picked out for phase 2 of this harvest. Gotta get busy!

6D5B390F 86C5 45AB A01B 0FA7A628DDA3


Eclectic tastes all are welcome.
 
PipeCarver

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Man you can post whatever you want on my thread. We can figure this out together.

I just posted this on gnick’s thread cause he has a deep deep palate of music, but here is the vinyl I got picked out for phase 2 of this harvest. Gotta get busy!

View attachment 1321562

Eclectic tastes all are welcome.
I did a couple of searches on how to increase brix% in cannabis....... didn't really explain much other than more nitrogen in veg and lower nitrogen going into flower with higher phosphorus in flower...if I read it all right.....>

I just follow a recipe but I'll try dropping a ml nitrogen week 1 of flower and increase 1 ml phosphorus while in flower.....I've been feeding 5/5/5 / gal in veg until I up the Potassium to 10 ml at 3 weeks in flower.......so it means 4/6/5/ gal the first 2 weeks up until flower then 4/6/10 3rd week of flower - ????/
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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I did a couple of searches on how to increase brix% in cannabis....... didn't really explain much other than more nitrogen in veg and lower nitrogen going into flower with higher phosphorus in flower...if I read it all right.....>

I just follow a recipe but I'll try dropping a ml nitrogen week 1 of flower and increase 1 ml phosphorus while in flower.....I've been feeding 5/5/5 / gal in veg until I up the Potassium to 10 ml at 3 weeks in flower.......so it means 4/6/5/ gal the first 2 weeks up until flower then 4/6/10 3rd week of flower - ????/
I appreciate you logging your data. I’ll do the same and see what we can learn together. I’ll be starting this fog system with 8 fem seeds shortly and I’ll track them thru the process. Using a separate feed system for each tub means I can vary nutes and lights and do side by sides to see what does what with this brix stuff.

The whole thing seems very high end winemakey to me and I want to learn how to be a weed sommelier in the garden. I rely a lot on data because I will never have the experience you have. I don’t have enough years left in me to catch up.

And I’m a geek.

Hey you’ll appreciate this I’m down over 70 pounds from my high weight. I know you use metric so that’s 2000 boxes of Tim horton’s donuts to you.

At the rate I am losing weight in about a year and a half I’ll just vanish.
 
Anthem

Anthem

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I appreciate you logging your data. I’ll do the same and see what we can learn together. I’ll be starting this fog system with 8 fem seeds shortly and I’ll track them thru the process. Using a separate feed system for each tub means I can vary nutes and lights and do side by sides to see what does what with this brix stuff.

The whole thing seems very high end winemakey to me and I want to learn how to be a weed sommelier in the garden. I rely a lot on data because I will never have the experience you have. I don’t have enough years left in me to catch up.

And I’m a geek.

Hey you’ll appreciate this I’m down over 70 pounds from my high weight. I know you use metric so that’s 2000 boxes of Tim horton’s donuts to you.

At the rate I am losing weight in about a year and a half I’ll just vanish.
Moe just be aware research subjects like this for cannabis are difficult. I have found when researching a subject matter such at this one. First be sure to look at the Website Address before even going to the website. In my experience about half to 2/3 fo the links will be to websites either supported or owned by large liquid cannabis nutrient companies. In the first article from Min Yield the author stated to use sugar in nutrient solution to increase Brix. We know that cannabis cannot uptake sugar. But we also know that about all of these nutrient companies sell a sweetener product. The challenge is caused by the publication being in a position where they have to offer up articles for the consumer but they also have to write articles pleasing to the companies advertising in their publication. The first article in Min Yield was wrote by a person with a MS in plants. I find it extremely unlikely that someone with an MS in plants does not know what are and are not up taken by plants.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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Moe just be aware research subjects like this for cannabis are difficult. I have found when researching a subject matter such at this one. First be sure to look at the Website Address before even going to the website. In my experience about half to 2/3 fo the links will be to websites either supported or owned by large liquid cannabis nutrient companies. In the first article from Min Yield the author stated to use sugar in nutrient solution to increase Brix. We know that cannabis cannot uptake sugar. But we also know that about all of these nutrient companies sell a sweetener product. The challenge is caused by the publication being in a position where they have to offer up articles for the consumer but they also have to write articles pleasing to the companies advertising in their publication. The first article in Min Yield was wrote by a person with a MS in plants. I find it extremely unlikely that someone with an MS in plants does not know what are and are not up taken by plants.
Understood.

I’ve moved past looking up the answer to finding it myself. Just takes time.
 
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Moshmen

Moshmen

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I appreciate you logging your data. I’ll do the same and see what we can learn together. I’ll be starting this fog system with 8 fem seeds shortly and I’ll track them thru the process. Using a separate feed system for each tub means I can vary nutes and lights and do side by sides to see what does what with this brix stuff.

The whole thing seems very high end winemakey to me and I want to learn how to be a weed sommelier in the garden. I rely a lot on data because I will never have the experience you have. I don’t have enough years left in me to catch up.

And I’m a geek.

Hey you’ll appreciate this I’m down over 70 pounds from my high weight. I know you use metric so that’s 2000 boxes of Tim horton’s donuts to you.

At the rate I am losing weight in about a year and a half I’ll just vanish.
Nice ! Bet ya feel better and more energy
 
PerfecTrader

PerfecTrader

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Ran into this while looking for more information. I got alot out of it but take it for what it's worth.

"I wrote this in order to better understand it for everyone. I know it is long, but I hope you enjoy and learn as I did. For many people, brix is a word commonly associated with the wine industry. Brix is important to the sweetness of the grapes which makes all the difference in regards to the taste of the final product. However, we don’t eat or drink raw Cannabis, so why is brix important?

Adolph Brix developed this scale in the mid 1800s and it was popularized by Dr Carey Reams in the mid 1900s. Although brix had been used by citrus and grape growers for years, Dr Reams formulated a brix chart that covers most common fruits and vegetables, as well as forage crops.

THE ROLE OF BRIX VALUES IN TRADITIONAL AGRICULTURE

In a single sentence, high brix levels will improve the flavor, nutrition and shelf life of the produce as well as potential IPM (Integrated Pest Management) benefits.

Brix is a measurement of soluble solids in the sap of a plant. Most commonly, brix is thought of as sugars, but brix really is a measurement of sugars, vitamins, minerals, proteins and other solids. However, sugars are the most abundant soluble solid in many fruits and vegetable juices, therefore, brix values primarily represent estimates of sugars in fruits and vegetables. When used in the context of Cannabis, we are testing the leaf, and those results may also show salts in the dissolved solids.

Higher brix levels in food have been associated with elevated nutritional values as well as having a sweeter, more desirable taste. Field managers are able assess harvest readiness for grapes, melons and other crops using brix values.

Using the Poor, Average, Good, Excellent (P.A.G.E.) scale for brix levels in various fruits and vegetables, home gardeners can take the taste and nutritional quality of their crops to the next level. You can also easily and quickly determine who has the best produce at your local farmers market by using a hand-held refractometer. Interestingly, fruits and vegetables with high brix levels are superior for storage, as they will not rot or mold, the simply dehydrate.

To find the brix levels of any plant, fruit or vegetable, you can use a small refractometer. Prices range anywhere from $20-$200 for a unit and the majority of them are small enough to fit in your pocket and bring out into the field with you. To find the brix value, squeeze a few drops of plant sap into the refractometer. This tool will then shine a light at the liquid sample, where it bends or refracts the light in a predictable manner. The more soluble solids that are in the liquid sample, the larger the refraction will be, which indicates a higher brix value.

Higher brix levels have also been associated with plant health and potential IPM benefits. Field managers that regularly check plant brix levels are able to identify connections between brix values, crop health and conditions their crops experience. The brix value in a plant has a lot to do with nutrient availability and balance in the soil. Low brix values mean poor nutrition and this in-turn means weaker plants, which pests love. Plants with a brix value of over 12% are much less likely to have pest issues. Brix value alone cannot describe the overall health of a crop, soil or farm, but it can give you a glimpse.

HOW DO YOU INCREASE BRIX?

To the chagrin of those that do cross-fit…. I mean grow organically, seemingly that is one of the best ways to get plants to have higher brix levels. By focusing on soils that are rich in organic matter, beneficial bacteria and fungi, over time you can raise these levels naturally.

Before we get to soil, you can’t have high brix without proper sunlight, or in the case of indoor cultivation, proper intensity and DLI (Daily Light Interval). This is due to the lights role in producing sugars through photosynthesis. Before you go and build your dream, high brix soil, make sure you have adequate light.

As with all living soils, the road to high brix starts with plenty of beneficial soil microbes. Microbes are in the soil to make nutrients available to plants. They ingest one form of the nutrient and excrete a form of nutrient that is more bioavailable to the plants.

Once you have the microbes in place, you’ll want to ensure a good supply of Calcium to the plant. It takes good microbial activity to make calcium available in the soil. If calcium availability and uptake are optimized, other mineral uptake will be more balanced and effective. Calcium increases cellular structure in plants that keep the Xylem and Phloem moving freely. High brix foods are higher in calcium than low brix foods. A calcium deficiency in the plant will almost certainly effect brix levels, but it is important not to provide Calcium in excess. Too much calcium will lock-out several other important macronutrients like Phosphorus and Potassium as well as micronutrients like Boron.

Speaking of Phosphates, they also play an important part of the high brix equation. Phosphates are a catalyst that transports nutrients within the plant, they can act as the trucker moving nutrients within the plant. Dr Carey Reams once said “ Available phosphates determine sugar content in plants”. When he said that, he didn’t mean that high brix foods are necessarily high in phosphates; rather they are significantly higher in calcium, sugars and trace minerals, but phosphates are essential to get them to where they are needed. Phosphates also play a major role as the energy source in the Krebs cycle, which is a fancy way of saying that phosphates help the plant get more energy out of sunlight.

Having plant available iron in the soil helps with the efficiency of sugar production. During photosynthesis, chlorophyll manufactures sugars and the micronutrient, iron, acts as a catalyst. Humic and Fulvic acids are a great way to make iron in soil more plant available.

Organic matter provided by humates make nutrients more available to the plant. Technically, Folvic acid is refined Humic acid and all humates contain some fulvic acid. Both humic and fulvic acid make other nutrients available to the roots, fulvic acid also delivers nutrients directly into the plant and then operates as part of the internal delivery system. Being able to move sugars and nutrients around is vital for good brix levels in plants. Fulvic acid greatly assists in this.

Since we’re on the subject of acids, you’ll want to include some amino acids too. Amino acids are the building blocks of all life. Plants use amino acids to build proteins which are then used to build plant matter. By providing amino acids, the plant does not need to expend it’s sugar energy to make these proteins. Amino acids can also greatly increase the uptake of Calcium, which we know is important for strengthening the stem and vascular systems. L-Amino acids help the absorption and transport of minerals throughout the plant by chelating the minerals.

Kelp or seaweed extracts contain beneficial micronutrients, natural plant hormones and natural sugar in the form of Mannitol. Mannitol is a natural chelation agent for micronutrients and has been shown to be helpful in the plants transport system. Kelp / seaweed also helps in building root mass through stimulating cell division. When it comes to Cannabis, there is an old saying – “the bigger the roots, the bigger the fruits”. Which in my experience is certainly true.

Other items you may want to add into your soil mix include earthworm castings, mycorrhizal inoculants, compost teas, humus and rock dust. All of the above items can be added to your custom soil mix or a standard 1/3 compost, 1/3 peat or coco and 1/3 vermiculite mix.

FEEDING FOR BRIX

In regards to the traditional N-P-K, levels of higher brix in plants are often associated with lower levels of nitrates. Ammonium Nitrates (NH4+) burn carbohydrates and reduce the brix levels in plants.

Because microbes form an important part in the process of making nutrients plant available, in the effort to increase brix, the use of synthetic nutrients is discouraged. Salts tend to disrupt the soil parameters that the microbes prefer to dwell in.

If you would like to use a soil drench, there are a few carbohydrate additives that can be used on the root zone. A good carbohydrate additive will reduce the amount of sugars the plant transports down to feed the beneficial microbes. In some cases, roots will absorb sugars instead of shed them and this increase brix within the plant.

An excellent option for feeding your plants in an effort to boost brix levels would be foliar applications. A well made mix can have a tremendous impact on raising brix values in plants. Phosphates, calcium, boron and other micronutrients can be applied as foliar sprays. Increasing phosphates in the plant through foliar sprays allows the Krebs cycle to transfer more energy within the plants, which makes the plant more efficient in storing energy as sugar from the photosynthesis process.

When a foliar program is properly applied the mineral density as well as the carbohydrates or sugars within the plant is increased. Some of these additional sugars and minerals travel down to the roots and are excreted out as exudates, which feed the beneficial microbes. They in-turn make minerals more available to the plant, which are taken up through the roots and increases the total dissolved solids in the plant. This process explains how foliar applications can increase brix readings.

KEY QUESTIONS REGARDING YOUR NUTRIENTS AND HIGH BRIX

  • How much calcium is available for the plant to build healthy cells with?
  • Is Calcium in the correct ratio to Magnesium?
  • Does the soil have enough Phosphates to carry other nutrients into and provide energy transfer inside of the plant?
  • Is there a wide spectrum of trace minerals available to the plant, meaning, in bioavailable form?
  • How active is the soil biology (microbes)?
HOW DOES THIS EFFECT THE CANNABIS GROWER?

Brix testing gives you a good, general, overall look at plant health and soil nutrition. But by no means is it a definitive test that will show whether a specific nutrient is in excess or deficiency. One plant diagnostic assumption we can make though, is that if the brix values are low, there likely is a calcium deficiency. If there are more sugars and other beneficial components like minerals and amino acids (lives building blocks), the plant can build more coveted compounds like oils, flavors and resins.

On average, a brix value of 12% is excellent and anything below a 7 is poor in regards to brix and IPM. High brix is thought to deter insects for a few reasons, the first being that with elevated sugar levels, when insects take a bite, the sap ferments to alcohol inside of the insects body. The insects can’t digest the alcohol and they die. This appears to offer natural resistance with no artificial or toxic chemicals. I did not find Cannabis specific brix levels and correlations to health, but one website did toss their idea of ideal brix for Cannabis at 12-15%.

Dr. William Albrecht, whom is regarded as a premier soil scientist of his time has said, “Insects and disease are the symptoms of a failing crop, not the cause of it. It’s not the overpowering invader we must fear, but the weakend condition of the victim”. It was concluded that brix alone could not explain the lack of insect pressure, but the influence and combination of various nutrients and overall plant health carried more significance.



FINAL THOUGHTS

As ornamental growers, we aren’t very concerned with the taste of the raw buds. We are however concerned with the taste that the terpenes of the plant can offer. Wine grapes are known to carry many monoterpenes as well as a few sesquiterpenes although the direct connection to brix has not been established, that I am aware of.

As an overall guide to plant health, a Sap analysis would be more accurate and specific, but those are costly and not a likely option for the home grower. Performing a simple brix test at various stages of your plants growth can give you a window into the overall health and mineral uptake of the plant.

Trying to raise the levels of brix by what and how you feed the plant offers the grower an opportunity to try something new and outside of their comfort zone. Good growers are always looking for a new challenge. This also encourages the use of organics, which many people are gravitating to.

In the garden, the way you defoliate can have an impact on your plants brix levels. Young leaves suck more sugars, because they are still growing. Older leaves, they’re happy, they require much less sugars. Conversely, we all know that the leaves make sugars during photosynthesis and if you remove the majority of them, you can stall growth by stalling photosynthesis. Go sparingly when you defoliate and keep some of the top leaves, because they catch the most sunlight. Growing buds are going to be a constant draw on the plants sugar reserves, which may be another important reason that we are checking for brix.



Factoids –

The brix scale was created to measure sap at an ambient temperature of 68 degrees. Many refractometers today account for this and will do a conversion, but even if yours doesn’t, you can find a chart online to correlate your results and temperature to the main chart for accuracy.

As night gets closer, the plant will send sugar down to the roots to feed the beneficial organisms. This will cause brix levels to fall. It is important that you check your brix levels at the same time everyday to create an accurate graph of your true levels.

If you grow outdoors, shade will also cause brix levels to drop temporarily, due to reduced photosynthesis.

A 100g sample of a solution that measures a 50 brix value, has 50g of sugars and other dissolved solids and it also has 50g of water. This should give you an idea for how actual sugar content relates to brix value.

#ChadWestport #HighScience"
 
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