Grow Room A/C

[DapperDon]

I find it rather strange that I can't seem to find mitsubishi units online that ship from somewhere closer than Florida. WTH? I live in WA state and can't seem to find a local warehouse.I would think there should be plenty on the west coast. Anyone?

I just bought a Mitsubishi 18k btu unit for 1750 delivered. Free shipping on orders over $200.00

http://ecomfort.com/

 

[TeterPosh]

@CannabisJohn and anyone else:

We're shifting to Sealed Rooms for the first time, where the goal is specifically to maintain truly ideal temp, rh, vpd ranges, all year round, and add co2, and to do so as easily, quickly, and inexpensively as we can manage given what we have and where we are now.

The first room we're going to change is a 16x16x16 flower room (256sqft with 16' ceilings), then next we'll do an adjacent 10x26 Veg room (or both at once if we must/should), at our biggest of two caregiver grows, and I/we need help (so I started my own thread about it too where I'll track the whole project).

It's a well insulated interior commercial space in the Colorado mountains, with another 16x16 interior room that's our storage room (also the lung room I guess), with one other currently empty 16x16 room that has an outside wall for venting access, all at a little above 7000ft elevation, 40* latitude. Plenty of grid power is available, 200A two phase 240v panel, professionally wired, all that.

In this specific room, right now, it's 77* and 29% rh with 6x 1000w lights on for the last 8hrs, on a 12/12, (shitty VPD, purple streak stalks, yellowing leaves, etc). In the last week the temp in the room has ranged from 60-85 and the rh from about 30-85%. Recently we had bud rot for the first time, so we have to change things, and soon.

In the last 30 days the outside temps have ranged from 0 to almost 70, the rh has ranged from 35% to 100%, and today it's snowing with a low of 0 and a high of 26 and 77% rh, and I believe it's the swings that are giving us most of our problems since we're using outside and ambient room air at this time.

The room has 16x 1000w HPS Hoods in it, on double decker Home Depot type shelves, and sometimes only 6 hoods are running, other times only 8, sometimes 12, or all 16, and in a couple of months all 16 always, so our solution needs to automatically scale with this and support 6x-16x 1000w HPS at once (the ballasts and controllers are in the adjacent storage room).

It currently has 8" air cooled hoods that draw and dump from the other interior room, and it has 6" ducting connected to the outside wall to cool the room itself, but lately it's too cold to need it so that line is just closed off.

So we definitely need a heat and cooling system (AC or heat pump or whatever), and some sort of humidifier / dehumidifier, and co2, and controllers, and I'm just now digging into what specific gear we'll need (which needs to work here, and anywhere else if we ever move locations).

I read that you suggest 3 hoods per ton (4000 btu per hood) if Air Cooled, or 6k if not air cooled, and I need to understand and decide whether to keep air cooling the hoods or to abandon that and cool it all with AC. I'm not married to any particular way, whatever serves the goals the best and most cost efficiently.

If my rough math is right, that would be about 6tons if AC or 8tons if not.

So yeah, help...

Thanx

:)

 

[CannabisJohn]

@CannabisJohn and anyone else:

We're shifting to Sealed Rooms for the first time, where the goal is specifically to maintain truly ideal temp, rh, vpd ranges, all year round, and add co2, and to do so as easily, quickly, and inexpensively as we can manage given what we have and where we are now.

The first room we're going to change is a 16x16x16 flower room (256sqft with 16' ceilings), then next we'll do an adjacent 10x26 Veg room (or both at once if we must/should), at our biggest of two caregiver grows, and I/we need help (so I started my own thread about it too where I'll track the whole project).

It's a well insulated interior commercial space in the Colorado mountains, with another 16x16 interior room that's our storage room (also the lung room I guess), with one other currently empty 16x16 room that has an outside wall for venting access, all at a little above 7000ft elevation, 40* latitude. Plenty of grid power is available, 200A two phase 240v panel, professionally wired, all that.

In this specific room, right now, it's 77* and 29% rh with 6x 1000w lights on for the last 8hrs, on a 12/12, (shitty VPD, purple streak stalks, yellowing leaves, etc). In the last week the temp in the room has ranged from 60-85 and the rh from about 30-85%. Recently we had bud rot for the first time, so we have to change things, and soon.

In the last 30 days the outside temps have ranged from 0 to almost 70, the rh has ranged from 35% to 100%, and today it's snowing with a low of 0 and a high of 26 and 77% rh, and I believe it's the swings that are giving us most of our problems since we're using outside and ambient room air at this time.

The room has 16x 1000w HPS Hoods in it, on double decker Home Depot type shelves, and sometimes only 6 hoods are running, other times only 8, sometimes 12, or all 16, and in a couple of months all 16 always, so our solution needs to automatically scale with this and support 6x-16x 1000w HPS at once (the ballasts and controllers are in the adjacent storage room).

It currently has 8" air cooled hoods that draw and dump from the other interior room, and it has 6" ducting connected to the outside wall to cool the room itself, but lately it's too cold to need it so that line is just closed off.

So we definitely need a heat and cooling system (AC or heat pump or whatever), and some sort of humidifier / dehumidifier, and co2, and controllers, and I'm just now digging into what specific gear we'll need (which needs to work here, and anywhere else if we ever move locations).

I read that you suggest 3 hoods per ton (4000 btu per hood) if Air Cooled, or 6k if not air cooled, and I need to understand and decide whether to keep air cooling the hoods or to abandon that and cool it all with AC. I'm not married to any particular way, whatever serves the goals the best and most cost efficiently.

If my rough math is right, that would be about 6tons if AC or 8tons if not.

So yeah, help...

Thanx

:)

Get rid of air cooling and the glass. Get a large dehumidifer and humidifier also. Get ur VPD where it should be. Install 2- four ton units and zone them out if you want two flower rooms. Of course do a light flip to cause you only have enough a/c for one room with lights on at one time.

 

[TeterPosh]

That simple, eh? Excellent.

Any suggestions regarding Controllers, De and regular Humidifiers of the size you suggest, and the 4 ton units themselves? And I'm not exactly sure how the temp controllers work, are they essentially a remote thermostat?

Currently the room is one large space. How important is it in terms of gear and operating costs to split it in half and run opposing 12/12s, each with its own 4 ton unit (a heat pump? I think I read you prefer York commercial and Mitsubishi mini splits) vs a single 8 ton unit?

And what can you tell me about the ducting requirements for these units (both two 4s and a single 8 ton)? The outside wall is two rooms away, maybe 60ft linear distance, fwiw.

Thank you again.

 

[DapperDon]

Most of the newer Mitsubishi mini splits come pre charged as long as your line sets are not longer than 25'. After than, then you have to start adding refrigerant. These things are retarded simple to install with a small investment of tools for under 1k. After you do one, the rest are simple and you will save big on never needing an AC guy again. An electrician to do the final and sign off and you are good to go.

 

[CannabisJohn]

Most of the newer Mitsubishi mini splits come pre charged as long as your line sets are not longer than 25'. After than, then you have to start adding refrigerant. These things are retarded simple to install with a small investment of tools for under 1k. After you do one, the rest are simple and you will save big on never needing an AC guy again. An electrician to do the final and sign off and you are good to go.

You are giving out incorrect info so please stop. It's not as simple as u make it sound. Most people on here need help. What do u do when it breaks? Throw it away and replace it? Kinda expensive for most people especially since margins in this business are shrinking if you're following the law ( not selling black market). You're entitled to your opinion as far as the install goes but it's not that simple.

 

[CannabisJohn]

That simple, eh? Excellent.

Any suggestions regarding Controllers, De and regular Humidifiers of the size you suggest, and the 4 ton units themselves? And I'm not exactly sure how the temp controllers work, are they essentially a remote thermostat?

Currently the room is one large space. How important is it in terms of gear and operating costs to split it in half and run opposing 12/12s, each with its own 4 ton unit (a heat pump? I think I read you prefer York commercial and Mitsubishi mini splits) vs a single 8 ton unit?

And what can you tell me about the ducting requirements for these units (both two 4s and a single 8 ton)? The outside wall is two rooms away, maybe 60ft linear distance, fwiw.

Thank you again.

I suggest multiple units because if one breaks other unit(s) can keep room cool with partial lights. There isn't an 8 ton unit that I know of (7.5 ton then jump to 10 ton). Also when you get into bigger units you can't get them in single phase power. You need a a/c pro in your area. Most growers run flip flops when you are short of power to run both rooms at once. Keep in mind a 1000 watt bulb draws around 5 amps by itself. A 4 ton a/c on single phase power draws about 35 amps each. If u can't find an a/c pro that u want to use in your area, PM me.

 

[DapperDon]

You are giving out incorrect info so please stop. It's not as simple as u make it sound. Most people on here need help. What do u do when it breaks? Throw it away and replace it? Kinda expensive for most people especially since margins in this business are shrinking if you're following the law ( not selling black market). You're entitled to your opinion as far as the install goes but it's not that simple.

Why because you say so? Mini splits have taken the secret alchemy that used to justify the high ripoff rate from most ac guys. If you have good building skills then the few hours it takes to bang one of these out is worth it. These units are tough AND they are cheap enough to be disposable. But that is also what a WARRANTY is for. I grow for myself and could give a shit less about the shrinking margins in the market legal or not.

 

[CannabisJohn]

Why because you say so? Mini splits have taken the secret alchemy that used to justify the high ripoff rate from most ac guys. If you have good building skills then the few hours it takes to bang one of these out is worth it. These units are tough AND they are cheap enough to be disposable. But that is also what a WARRANTY is for. I grow for myself and could give a shit less about the shrinking margins in the market legal or not.

Really don't want a pissing contest with u. Don't care. Most growers do care about margins. Like I said you're entitled to your opinion. So turn the hostility down a notch. I'm a professional HVAC tech and I don't overcharge growers just because they grow. All customers are equal. Sounds like u had some bad experiences. Sorry. Warranty is usually invalid if not installed by a pro.

 

[DemonTrich]

i have a new room, and by the looks of things ill need something to drop the temps down a bit more once summer gets here. I have an 8x12x7 sealed built room with a MONSTER carbon scrubber matted to an 8" 720cfm fan, an 8" 450 cfm intake fan that sucks the a/c air into the room. my options are to buy a bigger 10000btu portable ac unit, or keep the same 8000btu and upgrade my 3x600hps big kahuna hoods (fully sealed/silicone/weather stripping) from 2x6" 440cfm fans to 2x8" 720cfm fans on speed controllers. I grow underground also.

what do you think?

 

[DapperDon]

Really don't want a pissing contest with u. Don't care. Most growers do care about margins. Like I said you're entitled to your opinion. So turn the hostility down a notch. I'm a professional HVAC tech and I don't overcharge growers just because they grow. All customers are equal. Sounds like u had some bad experiences. Sorry. Warranty is usually invalid if not installed by a pro.

No, not a pissing contest at all. I wasn't being hostile, but I have had some very bad experiences with HVAC companies and their scams. Nothing screams bullshit louder than a quote that is 4 times the amount of the cost of the machine and not listing an itemized and detailed explanation for the quote. When I purchased my Minisplit, the warranty I got was for 5 years parts AND labor and is not contingent on it being installed by a certified HVAC. The new R410 refrigerant does not require EPA certifications and most new machines come pre-charged and need no more r410 added as long as the line sets don't exceed 25'. Now what I did do is purchased my own machine and everything needed for it and then hired an electrician and HVAC guys to make the final connections and sign off on it so that my work was legit. I saved THOUSANDS! My highest quote for a 14000 btu Mitsubishi was $5500.00. I got a Mitsubishi 18000 btu machine with pre flared line sets and everything including line covers, wall bracket, thermostat, warranty, delivered for $2,800. Electrician cost me $240.00 and the HVAC guy was another $160.00. The best part was that after installing my first one and having the tradesman show me what else needed to be done, I now feel more than confident that I could do these all day long. Now mind you, I am only talking about mini splits and nothing that requires a real HVAC tech. I see what you are saying and I can appreciate that. There aren't a lot of tradesmen left that share your view and I would be willing to bet that there are some customers that are happy to have you. Be well.

 

[DaFatBoy]

Just finished my HVAC cert program and I'm really digging all this information. I'm really interested in grow room design and hope one day when the lone star state comes around I can get involved in the trade.

 

[CannabisJohn]

No, not a pissing contest at all. I wasn't being hostile, but I have had some very bad experiences with HVAC companies and their scams. Nothing screams bullshit louder than a quote that is 4 times the amount of the cost of the machine and not listing an itemized and detailed explanation for the quote. When I purchased my Minisplit, the warranty I got was for 5 years parts AND labor and is not contingent on it being installed by a certified HVAC. The new R410 refrigerant does not require EPA certifications and most new machines come pre-charged and need no more r410 added as long as the line sets don't exceed 25'. Now what I did do is purchased my own machine and everything needed for it and then hired an electrician and HVAC guys to make the final connections and sign off on it so that my work was legit. I saved THOUSANDS! My highest quote for a 14000 btu Mitsubishi was $5500.00. I got a Mitsubishi 18000 btu machine with pre flared line sets and everything including line covers, wall bracket, thermostat, warranty, delivered for $2,800. Electrician cost me $240.00 and the HVAC guy was another $160.00. The best part was that after installing my first one and having the tradesman show me what else needed to be done, I now feel more than confident that I could do these all day long. Now mind you, I am only talking about mini splits and nothing that requires a real HVAC tech. I see what you are saying and I can appreciate that. There aren't a lot of tradesmen left that share your view and I would be willing to bet that there are some customers that are happy to have you. Be well.

That sucks about your previous encounters with my HVAC brethren. Unfortunately like all the construction trades there are unscrupulous people in my trade. I grow also so I feel I can add a lot for a newer grower. I would have charged u around $3200 or so if your had power installed for condenser.

 

[DemonTrich]

so not to rain on your bickering parade, how about a little help from you hvac/cooling experts from my post above?

thanks

 

[DapperDon]

so not to rain on your bickering parade, how about a little help from you hvac/cooling experts from my post above?

thanks

Wait your fucking turn. Filthy casual.

 

[DemonTrich]

lol

damn, number 420. I feel like im at the secretary of state office......

 

[DapperDon]

lol

damn, number 420. I feel like im at the secretary of state office......

 

[DapperDon]

i have a new room, and by the looks of things ill need something to drop the temps down a bit more once summer gets here. I have an 8x12x7 sealed built room with a MONSTER carbon scrubber matted to an 8" 720cfm fan, an 8" 450 cfm intake fan that sucks the a/c air into the room. my options are to buy a bigger 10000btu portable ac unit, or keep the same 8000btu and upgrade my 3x600hps big kahuna hoods (fully sealed/silicone/weather stripping) from 2x6" 440cfm fans to 2x8" 720cfm fans on speed controllers. I grow underground also.

what do you think?

I would sell all the ac hoods, lights, ballasts, and ductwork and get a very nice mini split with some DE units. Then sit back and laugh at all the money you wasted on old gear and headaches. Simplify yo life.

 

[DemonTrich]

I cant install a mini split. I have a commercial building I rent and im underground. so a portable ac is my only option, plus I don't have 1800+ to drop on a mini split. and I only have a 7 ceiling height, so a DE is not going to work.

so either upgrading to a 10000 btu a/c or upgrading my 2x6 440 cfm fans for 2x8" 720 cfm fans.

 

[DapperDon]

If you are going to be in that spot for a good little minute, then get a 14000 btu portable. Going from 8 to 10k btu unit will hardly be noticeable and for just a small increment more you will have an AC that won't struggle. I have the mini split going now but I still have my portable and never one problem. The only complaint is making sure that you keep the unit elevated so that you can run a small hose to a bucket for condensation runoff. I also agree with upgrading to 8" fans as well.

Here is the unit I have.
http://www.amazon.com/Haier-HPN14XC...425999669&sr=8-4&keywords=14k+btu+portable+ac