Guess Who, Bitches? Round Two - Ding Ding.

Lost · Feb 24, 2011

I like it, nice improvement!

JerryCurl · Feb 27, 2011

sweet

I did the same thing to raise the net pots a little hire, some of the cubes were damp and repositioned them asap.

lookin like fire!

TrichromeFan · Feb 28, 2011

Not really better

Well, I dropped the nutes down to 430 ppm 4 days ago. Also the CO2 ppm down to 700. They definitely look like they're still getting worse to me. Big bummer.

-TF

4.D. · Feb 28, 2011

glad your back in thie ring! your rooms has always been one of my favorits. Are you still running all lights? Can you give us some stats (temp, water temp in bucket, ph, etc)

LordDankinstien · Feb 28, 2011

I know you probably already have. But this would be one guess for me is, have you calibrated all your testing devices weekly or bi monthly to ensure accuracy? Other than that all I can think or is unballenced nutes/not enough nutes/ ph issues. Good luck buddy hope your plants start looking better. To me they just look hungry as fuck!!! Maybe the MPB's require alot more nutes than you think I know my first DWC I blasted mine with 800ppm right off the bat and they barely had any burn on the tips. I see your plants screaming FEED ME!!! And let your pH swing up and down a bit it will help you plants eat more.

Giddeon · Feb 28, 2011

Are you using RO or tap water for your system??

Is switching to Advanced Nutrients out of the question?? Maybe not for this grow but possibly the next? They may be hated by a lot of people because of business practices and other business related issues but at the end of the day their products work and work well together. Ever since switching to DD's nutrient pack (swapping SensiZym for Multizen only difference) my plants have always been lush green and no signs of deficiencies or over doses. Since I haven't grown in the MPB's with anything other than Advanced nutrients I'm not sure how results will turn out, I have done some experimenting with different nutrient lines with plants in the vegetative state and with some ebb and flow RW setups and through all the experiments I have done AN is my preferred nutrient line to use. I feel it is going to take some serious persuading to get me to try another brand for a while.

Good Luck
Giddeon

TrichromeFan · Feb 28, 2011

4.D. said:
glad your back in thie ring! your rooms has always been one of my favorits. Are you still running all lights? Can you give us some stats (temp, water temp in bucket, ph, etc)

Thanks 4D. All lights are running. Still on 400w setting.
Room Temp 78 RH 60% CO2 750PPM H2O Rez Temp 62.3 Tank Temp 63.5 PH 6.0 PPM 430.

LordDankinstien said:
I know you probably already have. But this would be one guess for me is, have you calibrated all your testing devices weekly or bi monthly to ensure accuracy? Other than that all I can think or is unballenced nutes/not enough nutes/ ph issues. Good luck buddy hope your plants start looking better. To me they just look hungry as fuck!!! Maybe the MPB's require alot more nutes than you think I know my first DWC I blasted mine with 800ppm right off the bat and they barely had any burn on the tips. I see your plants screaming FEED ME!!! And let your pH swing up and down a bit it will help you plants eat more.

Yep, I checked em last night. I have 3 meters. My PH on that meter was running .2 high on the readout, but it doesn't seem that would be it. My nutes started at 5.5 to 6.1 then I lowered. That means I was at 5.7 to 6.3. I can't see how that change in PH would cause such a big problem. Last round when I had this, I ran the nutes up and it did nothing at all to help.

Giddeon said:
Are you using RO or tap water for your system??

Is switching to Advanced Nutrients out of the question?? Maybe not for this grow but possibly the next? They may be hated by a lot of people because of business practices and other business related issues but at the end of the day their products work and work well together. Ever since switching to DD's nutrient pack (swapping SensiZym for Multizen only difference) my plants have always been lush green and no signs of deficiencies or over doses. Since I haven't grown in the MPB's with anything other than Advanced nutrients I'm not sure how results will turn out, I have done some experimenting with different nutrient lines with plants in the vegetative state and with some ebb and flow RW setups and through all the experiments I have done AN is my preferred nutrient line to use. I feel it is going to take some serious persuading to get me to try another brand for a while.

Good Luck
Giddeon

Giddeon,
thanks man. RO water. 20-30 ppm. I know DD uses Canadian tap. I don't have any clean tap like that here in LA. I can say in retrospect that I should have at least emulated DD's nute schedule as close as possible to start with at the very least. I didn't really believe that the brand of nute mattered that much, especially when DD himself switched from H&G to Advanced only because of a dispute with an unscrupulous Canadian distributor of the product. That said, I had faith in the H&G, and went for it. Again, being a total RDWC noob, I shoulda emulated the example and then gone from learned experiences. Switching nutes at this point in the run is a real crap shoot for me I feel. The plants are already worse for the wear.

It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense what the issue with the plants is once they get into the MPB room. The plants went in lush and green, and in a short matter of time, they are dying. It seems like the exact symptoms as last run, except that the plants roots on the bottom look pristine. I have crown fed with the great white on these girls up to this point as an attempt to keep some balance in the moist areas that might not get saturated with the hydrofungicide. I will try one more wave of sterilization throughout this week to see if that makes any difference in the heath of the girls. Otherwise, I just don't know exactly what to do.

Hey, wait, DD is back on the site, lets ask him:giggle

No worries either way guys. I have prepared for such an occasion, and have a coco army building as we speak. The room will succeed no matter what.:rauch08:

-TF

crossouttheiis · Feb 28, 2011

That is very odd how this is the second time having plants like that. Are you using the same batch of nutes as your last round? It seems like multiple brands are having bad batches shipped out. Sorry if I missed something or if you mentioned that. I have loved your setup since you gave it a go the first round. Always so clean... something I am trying to strive for now.

chrometrichs · Feb 28, 2011

Hey TF, just read thru your thread, sorry to hear your having issues. What rate ml/gal are you feeding A+B at currently and how many weeks old are those plants? and what else is going into the res?

I run H&G aqua very aggressively in my mpb, I get my ppms up near 800-1000 for within the first 2 weeks of flowering..if anything you might be underfeeding them...

one other thing i noticed is you keep your rockwool cube above the lava rock, I've found its better to cover that cube with an inch or so of lava rock...I also run the same drip rings but just 24/7...

Giddeon · Feb 28, 2011

Yes I now have a feeling you are under feeding your plants.

For myself, using RO was never successful, I always had to deal with deficiencies and then was forced to add way too much to my res. I switched back to tap water, allowing a 100 Gal res to sit out for a day or so before mixing nutes and then chilling. I had much better results both in my RDWC and in a past ebb and flow set up.

And yes you are probably right by saying that you didn't feel that, " ... the brand of nute mattered that much," as long as it is a reputable brand. Each nutrient company produces nutrients that will work but each will be used in slightly different way or will react differently to each other in the res and be up-taken by the plants in a unique matter.

So yes, I'm sure there are other 4lb tree nutrient schedules out there but the one posted by DD's seems to be the most user friendly for me at the moment. I'm using his system, Light lay out pattern, and other techniques to grow trees, why would I also not use his nutes he posts to use??

TrichromeFan · Feb 28, 2011

crossouttheiis said:
That is very odd how this is the second time having plants like that. Are you using the same batch of nutes as your last round? It seems like multiple brands are having bad batches shipped out. Sorry if I missed something or if you mentioned that. I have loved your setup since you gave it a go the first round. Always so clean... something I am trying to strive for now.

Thanks man, at the very least it is clean. Clean and green would be better though. Same batch of nutes as last run. I really don't think it is the nutes, as I was using them top feed drip on the girls in the veg room. They were going like gang busters with the same exact ingredients in the res.

chrometrichs said:
Hey TF, just read thru your thread, sorry to hear your having issues. What rate ml/gal are you feeding A+B at currently and how many weeks old are those plants? and what else is going into the res?

I run H&G aqua very aggressively in my mpb, I get my ppms up near 800-1000 for within the first 2 weeks of flowering..if anything you might be underfeeding them...

one other thing i noticed is you keep your rockwool cube above the lava rock, I've found its better to cover that cube with an inch or so of lava rock...I also run the same drip rings but just 24/7...

I had put the 4" cubes into the netpots when the seedlings had about 4-5 sets of leaves on 1/11. They were set back at first till I got the watering correct. They were transplanted into the MPB room at 2.5' tall. They were at 630ppm the week before transfer into the MPB's. Only fed with H&G Aqua Flakes A&B at about 4ml per gal and some Hydro Fungicide. They loved it and ate 50ppm and a few gallons a day up to transplant. The MPB res was the same mix, at 570ppm. The only thing added was a little drip clean. I thinned out the mix a few days ago to 430ppm as per mrdizzle's suggestion based on his prior grows. As I said, the last round when I had this, I pumped up the concentration of nutes, and even tried a big dose of cal mag, since some of the symptoms seem like accelerated calcium deficiencies. I also tried foliar feeds with cal mag as well. No noticeable improvement in disposition from any of it. Bossman also suggested last time to drop the nute concentration levels as well. As far as the cube height, I dunno if that would make this happen, but with that said, you sir have made it to the finish as I have not...

Giddeon said:
Yes I now have a feeling you are under feeding your plants.

For myself, using RO was never successful, I always had to deal with deficiencies and then was forced to add way too much to my res. I switched back to tap water, allowing a 100 Gal res to sit out for a day or so before mixing nutes and then chilling. I had much better results both in my RDWC and in a past ebb and flow set up.

And yes you are probably right by saying that you didn't feel that, " ... the brand of nute mattered that much," as long as it is a reputable brand. Each nutrient company produces nutrients that will work but each will be used in slightly different way or will react differently to each other in the res and be up-taken by the plants in a unique matter.

So yes, I'm sure there are other 4lb tree nutrient schedules out there but the one posted by DD's seems to be the most user friendly for me at the moment. I'm using his system, Light lay out pattern, and other techniques to grow trees, why would I also not use his nutes he posts to use??

Well, I can try another shot at a higher nute concentration. What's the worst that can happen? Dead plants?:D

Besides, I have a ton of H&G left. It will just be the water at the worst.

That's funny about the tap water. I used to use only tap back in the day. Never even let it sit. Worked great for me. Then again I was using 4" rockwool cubes with 1 part powdered nutes. Killed it consistently.

-TF

Bobby Smith · Feb 28, 2011

Damn TF, really sorry to hear that you're having troubles again.

As it seems like everyone else has every other possible issue covered, I'm gonna suggest one other - since (based on your unreal buildout journal) this was all built by you by hand, might there be something toxic in there that you overlooked, a la some NGW hose or something like that? Maybe some weird PVC you used that's offgassing?

Obviously I'm just throwing things out there to give you some ideas, but I'd really take a look at environment and possible things that could be off-gassing, especially if your roots are still looking nice.

TrichromeFan · Feb 28, 2011

Bobby,
If I said that I hadn't considered the off gassing I would be a fibber. I have no means to disprove that one yet, as I have yet to put in other girls that are not MPB. It is coming real soon. I have that fear in the back of my head that I have yet to meet face to face.

Are you implying that some hoses and pipe off gas themselves? I do use ABS, Sched 40 PVC, some NGW Black poly, and some clear poly for air and chiller. ABS was glued with standard ABS glue and the PVC was purple primed and red hot blue glued.

That just leaves the flooring. That is the wild card without a doubt. We will have to wait a little while longer till I shove a flowering plant other then MPB in there. I am not even gonna give that one any more thought till give it the canary in the coal mine test.

Thanks for bringing a different viewpoint to the discussion. That is always appreciated.

-TF

Bobby Smith · Feb 28, 2011

TrichromeFan said:
Bobby,
If I said that I hadn't considered the off gassing I would be a fibber. I have no means to disprove that one yet, as I have yet to put in other girls that are not MPB. It is coming real soon. I have that fear in the back of my head that I have yet to meet face to face.

Are you implying that some hoses and pipe off gas themselves? I do use ABS, Sched 40 PVC, some NGW Black poly, and some clear poly for air and chiller. ABS was glued with standard ABS glue and the PVC was purple primed and red hot blue glued.

That just leaves the flooring. That is the wild card without a doubt. We will have to wait a little while longer till I shove a flowering plant other then MPB in there. I am not even gonna give that one any more thought till give it the canary in the coal mine test.

Thanks for bringing a different viewpoint to the discussion. That is always appreciated.

-TF

Well I know there was the big controversy over NGW hose off-gassing (by some U.G.U. dude on IC), but I also have/use NGW hose and haven't had any problems with it - might be worthwhile to give his thread a read and see if anything "clicks" with you in terms of the problems he was having.

As far as the others go, I really don't have any idea - I don't think they do (as others use them in systems and I haven't heard of anything like that from them), but again, just trying to brainstorm for/with you because obviously something is causing your problems.

God help me if SCH 40 PVC pipe off-gases...........lol.

Good luck bro, sending positive vibes your way - maybe stick a barely rooted clone in there in a 1 gallon pot of dirt while you're trying to nurse your other girls back to health just to get the "canary test" over and done with before putting in a whole new crop? Thinking more as I type this, I think that's definitely something you should do - either rule that out and realize that's what it is sooner rather than later.

MediMary · Feb 28, 2011

just wanted to send some good vibes your way,
good advice on putting a soil lady in the room to check for off gassing

TrichromeFan · Feb 28, 2011

No soil here, but coco for sure

-TF:evilgrin0013:

motherlode · Feb 28, 2011

theres a thread here somewhere about that NGW tubing fucking shit up

bums me out to get through this thread (just saw it today) and see your still having issues

I truly hope you get thei shit dialed bro

edit

Shady · Feb 28, 2011

Damn... I'm at a loss at this point. Bobby's right about the canary test plant though to rule out the room components being the cause. It might be hard to figure out which component though. Other than that, I can't only speculate the nutrient mix is somehow off... Good luck my friend... :cool

chrometrichs · Feb 28, 2011

TrichromeFan said:
I had put the 4" cubes into the netpots when the seedlings had about 4-5 sets of leaves on 1/11. They were set back at first till I got the watering correct. They were transplanted into the MPB room at 2.5' tall. They were at 630ppm the week before transfer into the MPB's. Only fed with H&G Aqua Flakes A&B at about 4ml per gal and some Hydro Fungicide. They loved it and ate 50ppm and a few gallons a day up to transplant. The MPB res was the same mix, at 570ppm. The only thing added was a little drip clean. I thinned out the mix a few days ago to 430ppm as per mrdizzle's suggestion based on his prior grows. As I said, the last round when I had this, I pumped up the concentration of nutes, and even tried a big dose of cal mag, since some of the symptoms seem like accelerated calcium deficiencies. I also tried foliar feeds with cal mag as well. No noticeable improvement in disposition from any of it. Bossman also suggested last time to drop the nute concentration levels as well. As far as the cube height, I dunno if that would make this happen, but with that said, you sir have made it to the finish as I have not...

I've made it through almost 5 cycles now in my mpb and havent lost a plant a yet. I've had some take a nap and forget to grow for a week but they've always bounced back. Your aggressively giving light and CO2, the plants can def handle aggressive nutrient levels, granted thats before they show signs of deficiency. You really should have your A+B upwards of 9/10 ml gl at this point, by week 4 of flowering mine are at 14/15ml gal. I also swear by the rest of the H&G line, the roots xcl, the multizen, even the algen, if its on the H&G nutrient list I'm using it, adding extra cal/mag never seems to hurt either. Has Dizzle ran the H&G line? I thought he stuck to GH... anyway nutrients levels are very different depending on the company, 400 ppm of H&G is probably closer to 200ppm with GH considering the added iron in the H&G line tends to spike the ppm's.

I dont think cube height is the cause of your problem by any means, its just one of those things ive been doing for years whether its in a mpb or coco or soil. I always bury the top of the rockwool, thats just how I roll..:rollj:

If these guys dont pull back soon, i would replace them and start your new ones more aggressively. It sometimes takes weeks for the stunted ones to bounce back and by then you can have some beautiful new starts going that havent been stressed. I usually keep a few extra ones going in a side room in case one or two needs to be replaced. When you only have 5 or 7 plants theres not much room for error or runts...

TrichromeFan · Mar 1, 2011

Bobby Smith said:
Well I know there was the big controversy over NGW hose off-gassing (by some U.G.U. dude on IC), but I also have/use NGW hose and haven't had any problems with it - might be worthwhile to give his thread a read and see if anything "clicks" with you in terms of the problems he was having.

motherlode said:
theres a thread here somewhere about that NGW tubing fucking shit up

edit

I look for the dreaded 1/2" poly NGW hose.

Well now that's been swapped out.

We shall see if anything changes......

-TF

Guess Who, Bitches? Round Two - Ding Ding.

Guess Who, Bitches? Round Two - Ding Ding.

Lost

JerryCurl

Guest

TrichromeFan

4.D.

LordDankinstien

Giddeon

TrichromeFan

crossouttheiis

chrometrichs

Giddeon

TrichromeFan

Bobby Smith

TrichromeFan

Bobby Smith

MediMary

TrichromeFan

motherlode

@Rolln_J

Shady

Chillin' in the Shade...

chrometrichs

TrichromeFan

Guess Who, Bitches? Round Two - Ding Ding.

Guess Who, Bitches? Round Two - Ding Ding.

Lost

JerryCurl

Guest

TrichromeFan

4.D.

LordDankinstien

Giddeon

TrichromeFan

crossouttheiis

chrometrichs

Giddeon

TrichromeFan

Bobby Smith

TrichromeFan

Bobby Smith

MediMary

TrichromeFan

motherlode

@Rolln_J

Shady

Chillin' in the Shade...

chrometrichs

TrichromeFan

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