Here's a real stumper..SUN BURN .I guess...what do you think about this issue

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chazbolin

chazbolin

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Hiya Hippy! Just caught this thread with the cross post I did on the new IG vertical version of their 420 series. For any of you growing trees these are lightweight and easily stackable to cover the GIANTS top to bottom. . You can see it on their products page or this is a quick link to the white sheet.

I have never taken a plant from under an Inda-Gro start and put it under an HPS for flower. Part of me thinks that some of your problems may be due to photochemical stresses within the plant as it is missing UV-B regions that it had been seeing under the IG but than I wonder about that being the case when every plant I've ever grown under the MH veg - HPS flower would have experienced the same thing. As suggested I would definitely be checking the PH and PPM for excessive salt buildup.
 
The Hippy

The Hippy

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Hey Chaz

I'm giving up!

I believe your correct on that missing spectrum or too much spectrum idea....I dunno know which it is. I sure appreciate all those nice folks who added some suggestions in this thread.
Even with all the different ideas posted here, I feel it boils down to simply a difference in light. In other words they aren't prepared to go from one type light to another. I know that is a simple explanation. But basically the bottom line. There may be a fix for this. I think introducing some metal halide lighting in with the induction lighting in veg may fix the problem . They would be better equipped for the flip then I feel. They just can't handle the new lighting from a 1000 watt HPS bulb. Maybe a 600 or 400 would work. I don't know as I don't have one of those in HPS. Well I do have a 400 but am not going to bother experimenting anymore. I give up on this dual lighting shit.

I'm getting better results with the Igrow induction lights anyway. A third less yield though, but better end product. Stickier buds for sure. They are more juicy and nicer in appearance than under HPS. The smells are more intense and and the smoke is excellent. Tastier end product. And WAY LESS HEAT.

They have some drawbacks like high cost, less yield, heavier to work with, less
penetration of the canopy and of course less output than a 1k lamp.

But then again you get these benefits

1 Less ventilation equipment to buy
2 Way less heat.
3 Possibly less noise from fans etc.
4 Nicer end product
5 A way nice environment to work in ! They feel more natural to be around.
6 Longevity and consistency of output

I feel they have some way to go and us growers a lot of learning on how to use them best. But I also feel unless you need max yield these are the future for lots of folks.
Thank Chaz for the heads up on those new Inda Grow vertical lamps....cool...way cool. And much needed. These would fix that missing yield issue because that's exactly where the Igrow's and Inda Grows horizontal units fail. In getting light down to those lower branches, which all plants have in some form or another. Everything can't be on top. The penetration is the issue there. I had though that simply hanging the induction lamps along the side would help that lower growth. Same as these would do.
Those new Inda Grows verticals lamps are nice, but you need a FAT wallet to set all this up. If you got the bucks though that would be ideal.

I'm gonna buy two more and replace the HPS setup. I'm simply sick of seeing these beauties burn up. Even with the screening I used the HPS plants ended up being medium crappy plants. With leaf burn and smaller fruits. Geeeez .......Tired of the waste of resourses and effort .
I just can't get the two differant lighting systems to work together.
 
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chazbolin

chazbolin

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I sense your frustration but hang in there buddy! The thing is changing lamps is not only a hassle it means you are deciding when the plant is ready to absorb different spectrums and intensities that is determined by your flip photoperiod. This represents a period of stress for the plants and if they are going to hermie or fall prey to disease or infestation it's going to be when their defenses are down. That is the reason I've always been a proponent of giving the plants a broad stable spectrum through out the entire growth cycle and as in nature simply let the photoperiod be the trigger to flower.

As to adding MH to the Inda-Gro that wouldn't be necessary for a few reasons. MH lamps are spectrally unstable and shift dramatically upward in their first (burn in) 200 hours of operation. They will stabilze for the next 2000 hours than shift to lower kelvin values for the remainder of their lives. There is ample UV-B spectra being emitted and vegetative growth with tight internodal spacing is as good as you're going to get.

I've never grown with an iGrow product but my understanding is they have different lamps for veg and bloom. It's hard to say what spectra any of their lamps emit because they refuse to publish spectral distribution graphs as they consider this proprietary information. However a two lamp approach is not the direction I would take for the reasons previously stated. If your doing good with them that's great that you've dialed it in for your crops. But for the added cost and hassle of replacing lamps I would be willing to bet that even without the Pontoon, which Inda-Gro offers for the additional 660nm at lights on and 730nm at lights out, the finished quality is going to be better and weights would be at least equal to an iGrow finish.

Since you own both brands you should consider doing a side by side in which you don't move veg plants that started under the Inda-Gro to HPS. Let the plants finish under the Inda-Gro and see the difference. If you want to be fair to the iGrow don't run the Inda-Gro side with the Pontoon and keep the flowering photoperiods the same at 12/12. Everything being equal the finishes will favor one over the other. When you add the Pontoon in and push a 13/11 flowering photoperiod there won't be any doubt in your mind as to which approach works better for consistent quality and crop after crop returns. The results will speak for themselves.

I would have to agree that these are not inexpensive systems to purchase but I can tell you that the cost of my lights has always been recovered in less than one crop and in some cases a 1/2 crop cycle. What is particularly satisfying is that I've got gardens running on the same lamps now for going on four years. Which means the original price to purchase these lights is a distant memory.

I'm getting better results with the Igrow induction lights anyway. A third less yield though, but better end product.

A third less yield is completely unacceptable. And for what? A reduction in heat? More natural to be around? While one could argue that 'you get what you pay for' I would say that is not at all the case at all when comparing an iGrow to an Inda-Gro product. iGrow will be more expensive to purchase and when compared to the Inda-Gro trichome, resin, oil and terpene production is superior to HPS finishes which unlike the iGrow will not require you to to give up 1/3 the weight for those results.
 
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The Hippy

The Hippy

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Hey Chaz
Some where I must have given the impression that I have both brands of lights. Sorry for that mistake. I actually only have the Igrows and do not have any of the Inda grow products. I'm not sure where to buy those in Canada or if they are available at all here. I did try a brief search a couple of months ago but did't see any Canadian sales info.
I would like to get some though. But won't do a cross border purchase on these fragile items.
The other lights I have are HPS 1k in air tubes.
I was thinking of going strictly induction because of this flipping issues from Igrow 200w Veg units to my HPS 1000. They just don't like this change
 
The Hippy

The Hippy

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I just talked to dude who felt that adding some MH to the veg spectrum would help the problem greatly. He feel the intensity is just to much for them to cope with on the flip to 1000 hps. I felt that would help as well. Maybe I should try adding a 400 MH to the veg area and see if they can be toughened up a bit.
 
chazbolin

chazbolin

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I'm pretty certain your problems were not a result of having moved between the iGrow and the thouie. Toughening your plants up with a MH is not gonna correct what happened on this last run. IMO Thystikk nailed it and his post warrants a reread:

Yes, your humidity its terribly low, which forces the plants to chug water to avoid wilting- which then inadvertently sucks too much nutrient into the plant, burning it worst where it gets the most light. What under one set of conditions would be a reasonable nutrient strength thus becomes lethally strong under adverse conditions.

Congrats, you've fried them- best bet now is to perform a quick flush, increase the distance between plants and light- how close are you running that thouie to the plants?- and maintain good air movement around the tops of the plants to avoid creating a hot spot. And, GET THAT HUMIDITY UP. Shoot, I run 70% RH @ 80F. Helps a lot when you're pumping CO², as well.

To that I would only add that you consider bigger pots .

Inda-Gro ships customer direct orders worldwide and to Canada via USPS with larger palatalized orders through their customs broker. Breakage is rare but when it occurs is covered under shipping insurance. But if your still planning on doing an induction at veg to HPS at flower just stay with the iGrow since buying an Inda-Gro won't solve the problems you just experienced.
 
The Hippy

The Hippy

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So many good answers to consider. But of course it can't be all the suggestions made in this thread either. So I must try to figure out what is really happening and how to fix it.
As far as the humidity goes he is correct, I don't run a lot of humidity in there. Certainly not as high as 70%. I do have a lot of air circulating in there though. There is no hot spot as the fans are aimed fairly high and seem to keep things moving very well. I'm not a big fan of high humidity as I believe you can get other issues then. Like mold and rot and funguses....correct ??? Mostly the temp is around 75 with the humidity at about 45%. His explanation of them sucking up too much nutes seems logical. But then I dunno...all the theories sound reasonable.
I use two sizes of pots and maybe the ones in my pictures happened to be the smaller ones. Regardless both sizes of pots produce that same burn effect. I tried limiting the nutrient feedings at first until they were used to the light but that didn't seem to help either. both my pots sizes seem to produce good results under induction and were always fine when I used strictly MH and the flipped to HPS. So would they be fine for induction?
At this point no suggestion has worked and I am sick of the hassles with this dual light system. I hate quitting but am not sure what to do anymore.
I don't think there is much difference between the Igrow and the Inda grows either. Except the pontoons of course. The Igrows are easy to get here but cost about $1300 per 420 watt setup. They don't offer the pontoons as an option.
Are you using the pontoons? Do you use any other lighting than induction?
 
chazbolin

chazbolin

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I've been using inda-gro products in mine and friends gardens for 4 years now. You can see my gardens on the other thread here on the Farm that I post on. So if you were to ask me I would say forget the dual light approach. If you run broad spectrum lamps like a CMH for example you would have spectrums that plants need to have available for optimum photomorphogenesis. I don't run anything other than inda-gro lights and yes I use the pontoons on 13/11 flowering photoperiods.

iGrow and Inda-Gro are different in that iGrow insists that crop benefits come from using two induction lamps and Inda-Gro only uses one broad spectrum lamp that is more efficient than CMH. Inda-Gro posts their spectral graphs and the phosphors they use on their site. Compare that information with iGrows lamps and see if it's possible to run just one of their lamps from veg thru flower. I have no idea what they emit but but losing 2/3 the weight from 1000 watt HPS is not going cut it. You should be expecting much more from your efforts.
 
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Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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So many good answers to consider. But of course it can't be all the suggestions made in this thread either. So I must try to figure out what is really happening and how to fix it.
As far as the humidity goes he is correct, I don't run a lot of humidity in there. Certainly not as high as 70%. I do have a lot of air circulating in there though. There is no hot spot as the fans are aimed fairly high and seem to keep things moving very well. I'm not a big fan of high humidity as I believe you can get other issues then. Like mold and rot and funguses....correct ???
Overall plant vigor is what really determines that, along with types. I run my room at high RH and have yet to experience that sort of problem due to humidity alone, ever. I've always been able to trace the source of my problems and it starts and ends with my husbandry.
Mostly the temp is around 75 with the humidity at about 45%. His explanation of them sucking up too much nutes seems logical. But then I dunno...all the theories sound reasonable.
Vapor pressure deficit is not a theory. :)
I use two sizes of pots and maybe the ones in my pictures happened to be the smaller ones. Regardless both sizes of pots produce that same burn effect. I tried limiting the nutrient feedings at first until they were used to the light but that didn't seem to help either. both my pots sizes seem to produce good results under induction and were always fine when I used strictly MH and the flipped to HPS. So would they be fine for induction?
At this point no suggestion has worked and I am sick of the hassles with this dual light system. I hate quitting but am not sure what to do anymore.
I don't think there is much difference between the Igrow and the Inda grows either. Except the pontoons of course. The Igrows are easy to get here but cost about $1300 per 420 watt setup. They don't offer the pontoons as an option.
Are you using the pontoons? Do you use any other lighting than induction?
I can't say as I blame you, this is frustrating to be sure. Now, what if you ditched the HPS, instead?
 
The Hippy

The Hippy

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Hi Guys
Yes Seamaiden, I'm planning on dumping the HPS setup. Just gonna add two more Igrow 420's. It's just too much to figure out how to get them to intermix. I will stick with induction and not bother with conventional bulbs anymore. I'm not gonna try to get them to be compatible. Someone much better at this needs to figure this one out. I have had decent success using one system or the other. But no luck at trying to mix these two technologies
There are very few folks who have anything good to say about induction lighting though. But I'm fairly pleased with it. Just wish I could get the yield up some. If I had a few more lights I know that would help. I'm working at trimming them into a better canopy for more growth on the top.
I was hoping that by running the one tent with the HPS lamp I would get the type of yeild I'm used to. Bu ended up with much less. Even less than with induction.
I do use both Igrow veg and bloom bulbs just to clarify. But not combined of course. They are in the proper tent with e proper time period for veg and bloom.
I really like the way the veg lamp produces plants . I think they work better than my MH lamp I used to use before switching to the Igrow veg bulb.
Chaz what lamp system do you use for vegging your plants ?

Seamaiden I need you and your knowledge....too bad I can't beam you over.

I still have this feeling about adding a 400 MH into the vegging Igrow tent. Seems like a reasonable idea to prepare them that way for the big 1 thouie HPS later. I mean when they grew under the MH lamp only, they were fine switching them to the big HPS 1K.
Right guys....doesn't that seem the cruxt of it really. No preparation for the extra output of a big HPS....?????????????????
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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Hippy, I've honestly never had such problems as you describe with plants. I think at the beginning of your thread somewhere I mentioned what we do for photosynthetic hermatypics (reef-building organisms), and it always works. It's fairly perplexing.
 
xX Kid Twist Xx

xX Kid Twist Xx

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its alot easier going from 1k mh to 1k hps. if your going from t5 or 400 mh its a bit harder just turn the lights of a bit earlier for a few days it will give them time to catch up once the stretch is over you should be good in a few days. plants love light they will adapt
 
The Hippy

The Hippy

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Hey Everyone
Here an update to this. I finally gave up on the HPS lamp and went all induction.
That was about 6 days ago.
Before taking the hps out of my 4x4 tent, I put some new flips in and waited to see if they fried up. They didn't. After almost 2 weeks they were looking pretty normal still and showing very little signs of the burn crap I was getting. Why...I don't know. Anyway I wasn't waiting to see these new girls fry so I went looking for some more induction lights. I thought I'd try Chaz's inda grow brand that he uses. They are 500 bucks less than Igrows setup.
Long story short I found 3 almost new inda grow par 420's locally. Did a deal and bought them.
Now for the interesting part. I see after getting them that they are shorter bulbs in the inda grow. The Igrow is 9 inches longer approx. and a way more red color. The Inda Grow lamps are a more white and seem brighter. I don't have any meter to measure the lumens but they are much more white. The Igrow bloom 400's that I have a very red in nature over the Inda grows. So obviously they put out a different spectrum.
So I'm hoping by mixing the two systems together every other one they will compliment each other. I know from Chaz's grow journal that the Inda grows do a great job. Plus my own Igrows are pretty darn good to. So I'm thinking that they will be good together.
After 6 days all plants in both bloom tents are looking pretty good. Much to early to tell but so far they all seem happier with both brands of light together. The bigger 4 x 8 has now 1600 watts with two Igrows and 2 Inda grow lamps in there. The other 4 x 4 has 800 watts. so one of each brand in it.
So now I have increased my watts of light as well. I have 6 systems of 420 now instead of the 3 induction and the one HPS 1000 I was using.
So I'll let you all know how it grows.

Any thought Chaz?
 
chazbolin

chazbolin

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iGrow recommends you buy two lamps for their lights. One for veg and one for flower. Since you have their 'flowering' lamp, 'way more red color', if it's possible for you to compare the iGrow 'flowering' lamp with the Inda-Gro broad spectrum lamp you will see for yourself why a broad spectrum phosphor blend not only out yields the 'flowering' lamp (visible red to the eye has little influence on the R-FR regions that the plant absorbs) but does not require the effort of changing out lamps, is less expensive and provides the UV-B regions that increase trichome production. Post up pics if you can.
 
Max Frost

Max Frost

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Hey Everyone
Here an update to this. I finally gave up on the HPS lamp and went all induction.
That was about 6 days ago.
Before taking the hps out of my 4x4 tent, I put some new flips in and waited to see if they fried up. They didn't. After almost 2 weeks they were looking pretty normal still and showing very little signs of the burn crap I was getting. Why...I don't know. Anyway I wasn't waiting to see these new girls fry so I went looking for some more induction lights. I thought I'd try Chaz's inda grow brand that he uses. They are 500 bucks less than Igrows setup.
Long story short I found 3 almost new inda grow par 420's locally. Did a deal and bought them.
Now for the interesting part. I see after getting them that they are shorter bulbs in the inda grow. The Igrow is 9 inches longer approx. and a way more red color. The Inda Grow lamps are a more white and seem brighter. I don't have any meter to measure the lumens but they are much more white. The Igrow bloom 400's that I have a very red in nature over the Inda grows. So obviously they put out a different spectrum.
So I'm hoping by mixing the two systems together every other one they will compliment each other. I know from Chaz's grow journal that the Inda grows do a great job. Plus my own Igrows are pretty darn good to. So I'm thinking that they will be good together.
After 6 days all plants in both bloom tents are looking pretty good. Much to early to tell but so far they all seem happier with both brands of light together. The bigger 4 x 8 has now 1600 watts with two Igrows and 2 Inda grow lamps in there. The other 4 x 4 has 800 watts. so one of each brand in it.
So now I have increased my watts of light as well. I have 6 systems of 420 now instead of the 3 induction and the one HPS 1000 I was using.
So I'll let you all know how it grows.

Any thought Chaz?

iGrow recommends you buy two lamps for their lights. One for veg and one for flower. Since you have their 'flowering' lamp, 'way more red color', if it's possible for you to compare the iGrow 'flowering' lamp with the Inda-Gro broad spectrum lamp you will see for yourself why a broad spectrum phosphor blend not only out yields the 'flowering' lamp (visible red to the eye has little influence on the R-FR regions that the plant absorbs) but does not require the effort of changing out lamps, is less expensive and provides the UV-B regions that increase trichome production. Post up pics if you can.

Hey Hippy,

I REALLY hope you'll take Chaz up on his suggestion and run a side-by-side! What an opportunity you have!! :woot: I run the Indagro 420 w/ Pontoon, and most of what I really love about this light is the broad spectrum it emits. The plants LOVE it! By mixing the lights, and therefore the spectrums, I really don't think you're going to see as much of an improvement as you'd get running them separately. IMO, you'll just be boosting the intensity in some of the regions, but I don't know how much benefit the plants will derive from it. If I were you though...I'd HAVE to run the side-by-side! And I'd betcha a big bag of perlite that if you do...the Indagro is gonna kick ass! That is...assuming you're running the pontoons. I think they really make a big difference. Best, -Max :wacky:
 
The Hippy

The Hippy

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Hey Guys
Yes Chaz that's correct. I only have Igrows flowering lamp in my bloom tents up until now. Defiantly more wide spectrum from the Indagrows though. Even up until now the Igrow bloom bulbs have produced pretty nice flowers overall on their own. But as I have stated earlier in this thread the yields are down from my HPS grows of the recent past. So I figured that general overall intensity was simply lacking in the reddish Igrow bloom only tent setups I have been using. I figured there was so much less light overall that they simply just didn't have the balls for the job. I thought adding a few more Igrow bloom lamps in there would do it by boosting the output by adding more light. But now I see as you pointed out that the Indagrows are more wide spectrum and may offer a better spectrum than the Igrow bloom lamps on their own. Hoping for good things. I feel in the limited time they have been mixed in ( a week now ) things seem to be looking better. Of course I have no way of knowing the color range of the Indagrows. I do know they are more white looking than a HPS lamp to the naked eye. So are the Indagrows as good as a HPS lamp in color spectrum needed for flowering? I know the intensity is less obviously, but is the color spectrum better on the Indagrow lamp?
I know a side by side would be an interesting experiment. If I wasn't trying to catch up on my missing yield I would give it a go. But I am just gonna mixed the two brands of lights in both bloom tents and see if I can fix my lower return issue. I already know that the Igrow bloom lamps on their own are pretty good. So I don't need to see that situation.
I totally agree that a side by side of the two brands would be a tell tale experiment. Unfortunately I can experiment no longer. this fuck up has cost me thousands already in lost product just going from regular style lamps to induction.
As Max said, I feel the overall extra amount of light and the new broader spectrum will be a winner for sure. I bet this is what I was missing with those bloom only Igrow lamps.
Chaz did they actually say at Igrows site to mix both their bloom and veg lamps in the same tent. If they did, that would've been very useful info indeed in the beginning of my induction run. I am realizing now that the Igrow bloom lamps alone are not enough to produce the type of results we are all used to.
I'd have to say at this point that compared to HPS lamps, Igrows bloom only lamps on their own.....suck. Now they aren't completely bad, but most likely alone they are not enough to satisfy most growers expectations.
I have seen some Igrow journals and they look like the bloom lamps from I grow work good. Hmmmmmm makes me wonder how they look so good with only that bloom lamp going.
Maybe using both Igrows lamps ( veg and bloom )in the same tent/room on the 12/12 cycle would be a better way to do it. Better than with their bloom only lamp on it's own.
Yes I grab a few pics ...see what I can do
I feel a bit fucked by Igrow for giving the impression that the bloom lamps were good enough to use on their own. Maybe I'm wrong and my skills just ain't up to the task.
Jeez all this writing has made me need a "blob" of BHO

Ps
No Max I don't have the pontoons. They are another 2100 bucks. No one in Canada stocks them. So I will need to order them when I get the cash together. Yes I do plan on getting the pontoons when I'm able. Might as well go with the full deal.
I will be able to get a bit of a side by side results as I will be able to see how the plants under the Indagrow's do compared to the Igrows. Yes there is spill over from the neighboring Igrow lamp but, I think I will still see a difference anyway as they are pretty close to the lamps and some plants will see more of one brand over the other brand. I'm hoping both together give me some WOW factor...I need that after all this crap of burnt babies
 
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chazbolin

chazbolin

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Of course I have no way of knowing the color range of the Indagrows. I do know they are more white looking than a HPS lamp to the naked eye. So are the Indagrows as good as a HPS lamp in color spectrum needed for flowering? I know the intensity is less obviously, but is the color spectrum better on the Indagrow lamp?

IG publishes their Spectral Distribution Graphs and Candela plot plans on the bottom of their white sheets @


IG also provides the energy the 420 and the 420 with Pontoon emits in the veg-coratenoid-flowering regions. These are shown as watts/region for each of their lights on the products page @


IG also provides the MSDS sheets for the phosphors that emit these wavelengths @


Hmmmmmm makes me wonder how they look so good with only that bloom lamp going.

I truly hope you get a good crop no matter what light you're using. But you're right to wonder. With iGrow they won't publish any of their lamps spectral distribution graphs as they claim it's proprietary. Give me a fricking break. Everyone publishes their lamps SDG. Not iGrow. Find one anywhere on their website and I'll send you a fattie.

It sounds like you have the tools in place no matter how you set up your lighting. Down the road you can add a Pontoon and run longer flowering photoperiods. But for now you work with what you got. I for one would like to see your setup and follow how the plants are doing along the way. We're all pulling for ya!
 
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The Hippy

The Hippy

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Hey Chaz
Send me a fattie anyway...I wasting away here in the north
lol
Sure here's a few shitty pics......lights are on and may not show things in it's best light..haha
Anyway ignore the yellow looking plants and leaves. The Igrows super reddish output give them a yellowish hugh...when they aren't really that color. Most everything is quite green and healthy.
This also a perpetual grow so the plants are in different stages of flowering. So I'll see who does better the one directly under the Inda gro's or the plant directly under the Igrow's....I will get a bit of an idea I think. Although I do move plants around a bit from one area to another as plants come and go.
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The Hippy

The Hippy

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Wow looking at the posted pics, they look so yellow from the Igrow lamps. Like that last pic is not that color at all.
 

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