Leelandgrow3
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Looks like another dimension lol the walls
C
Compost Man
- 284
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You know every Bud that came out of my Grows were 4-5 hour buzzes. My AK-47(BC) 8-10 hrs. I've friends that check with me first before they go to COLORADO.
Steve705
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hillbil
- 257
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You will need a lot more watts to flower! Way more, way way more! A 150 HPS is 15,000 lumens.
az2000
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FWIW: I have flowered with household LED lightbulbs at 18 to 22w/sq ft. (<<link). I've never used HPS, but I think it's typically used at 50-60w/sq ft. So, it's not all about watts. I think distributing light around a plant creates an efficiency.
One downside to @JonnySuicide 's flouro-like LED fixture is that it doesn't have reflectors. Up near the roof of the tent, the tent's reflective surface will act like a reflector. But, a light like that should be very close. If the diffusor could be removed, and if the LED diodes are all pointing own, then a reflector wouldn't matter as much.
If I wanted flouro-like LED, I think the replacement tubes made for flouro fixtures would be the best choice. A grow-light fixture (with reflectors) could be used. But, by the time a person buys a T5HO fixture and replaces the tubes with LED "tubes," it would be expensive. Just ordinary household LED lightbulbs would produce as much light for less cost. However, it can be tedious managing a dozen lightbulbs. A flouro fixture with LED "tubes" would be much easier to deal with. (But, I still think the style of fixture matters. An Agroflex with the "wings" on each side would probably be idea for LED "tubes."
JonnySuicide
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I've seen people flower with less than what i have. Maybe on the next round I can dump $100 in lamps but right now I'm only producing for my personal use anyway.
I did lower the lights back down, removed the defusers and added another light bar after reading this post.
az2000
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Can you provide the brand/model name for that LED flouro-like light? If I could see the specs, I might have some thoughts. Spectrum will be more important in flower. You might might benefit from adding some warm-white lightbulbs.
Removing that defusor should help a lot. I've measured light output from LED lightbulbs. Adding a reflector to one of those helps a lot. But, simply removing the plastic globe makes a huge difference in the amount of light reaching the plant. A reflector helps a little more.
I think these things are perfect for budget growing. You can scale more light to the plant size, one bulb at a time. I just measured GE "basic" LED lightbulbs. 8.5w/60w-equiv, sold at Lowes. They only cost $1.25 each and produced good ppfd/watts. Better than the lightbulbs I've been using from 3-4 years ago (the ones in that thread I linked to). I love to sidelight with lightbulbs like this (with the diffusor removed). You can get right up close to the plant.
I don't remember if I mentioned this before, but I make a sliding lamp-holder that fits on the tent legs. That makes supplementing easier. It's cheap to do. A 3/4" PVC coupler fitting. I document how to make it here. (<<link) The nice thing about this kind of old-fashioned lighting is that you can use it forever. The mounts, sockets, etc. That lasts a lifetime. The bulbs are just plug-n-play. Even if you buy a more typical grow-light fixture, you can always use this stuff for vegging (to save your "real" fixture from wear and tear). You can also use this stuff to supplement in flower. I think adding a few watts around the plant does much more than adding those watts to the toplight. You can get these smaller/lower-watt bulbs closer to the plant. Less inverse-square loss. You can get light to leaves that would be shaded if lit entirely from above.
It's not sexy stuff. But, I think it's very cost effective.
Yesterday I was looking at Cree's 19w/150w-equiv PAR38 40-degree floodlight 3000k. Four of those as top lighting would produce a huge amount of light for just $60. Add another 40w of 9w/60w-equiv lightbulbs around the side of the plant. Another $5 for lights. That would be 30w/sq ft for a 2x2' space. (I'm not saying you should do that. Just giving an example of how cheap a person can light their plant.).
hillbil
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Really like the utilization of standard lighting products and there is a lot of fixtures doing 100 lumens per watt. After all, that’s all HPS and MH are at there roots and I have used HPS flood lights in “the beginning”. First official grow light was HTG 250 HPS $119.
JonnySuicide
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az2000
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Lumens are a measure of all light generated by the fixture, in all directions. Total light, regardless of whether it goes where you want it to be. (Lux is the measure of lumens falling on a specific point.). By removing the difussor you undoubtedly increased the lumens because the diffusor absorbs some light. But, if the LED chips all face in the same direction, then you've really increased the lux. More light where you want it (instead of spread around for a soft, diffuse appearance.).
So, 88 L/w isn't great. But, that's about like the lightbulbs I used 3-4 years ago, and had good/great results with. I improved them by removing the diffusor. The lux falling on a specific point was 200 times more. At that point, L/w doesn't mean a lot. The light produces more light, and where you want it (without reflector loss or diffusor absorption.
So, assuming you're getting the same "light per watt" as I was getting, your 25w fixtures should cover about 1.25 sq ft (at about 20w/sq ft). If your plants have a 2.5sq ft footprint, you should be good. If they become bushy and more sq. ft, it would be good to add more light (like the lightbulbs for sidelighting). It wouldn't hurt to do that starting mid-flower anyway. 30w/sq ft would be better then.
The 4000k spectrum may not be optimal. But, if you sidelight with 2700k, that would make up for it. I have an Area-51 LED fixture which I believe was 3700-4000k. (XLS model, if I recall.). It flowered ok. So, maybe your light will be ok.
CoMMoNHaCK
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www.timbergrowlights.com
hillbil
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Walmart 24” under cabinet lights are 13w and 1300 lumens plug in and can be daisy chained. 4000k. That a51 is a whole different level. Still use several from time to time. Powerful grow lights that just lacked coverage but lots of good light. A51 is ancient history though.
JonnySuicide
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Alot of good info here. Thanks forthe helpful post.
az2000
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Do you have a model number? I could get one and measure its ppfd.
I suspect lightbulbs are more cost effective. A 13.5w (100w-equiv) LED lightbulb is 1600 lumens. (Example, GE "Basic LED" model #93113788 sold at Lowes). That bulb costs $3.50 USD each.
I haven't measured that one yet. But, I measured the 8.5w (60w-equiv) 720 lumenss (model #46239, $1.25 each). With the globe removed it averages 4.05ppfd/watt. (Mounted in a reflector: 5.38. The globbed & unreflected bulb is 1.81ppfd, for comparison of how the lumens become concentrated.).
That's as good as the older Philips LED lightbulbs, which cost considerably more when I bought them. Those grew well. So, I'm sure these GE "basic" bulbs would. Ppfd by itself doesn't mean the spectrum is good. But, all the 2700 & 5000 kelvin temperatures should be about the same spectrum.
The nice thing about flouro-like fixtures (under-cabinet fixtures) is that it's broader coverage. I like that. That's why I would use more 60w-equiv lightbulbs instead of 100w-watt (for sidelighting at least. Distribute more light around the plant instead of one strong source.). You also don't need to rig up sockets and reflectors to use those flouro-like strips.
But, after the initial hassle & expense of making lamp holders, that stuff's reusable. LEDs lose strength the longer they're used. At $1.25 per lightbulb, just buy new ones for each grow. The sockets, mounts, etc are reuseable. A minimal amount of investment would be replaceable. (More work/cost upfront.). But, more plug-n-play flexibility/economy forever.
az2000
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FWIW: Lowes has an 11w (90w-equiv) 40-degree floodlight (GE "basic" brand, 3000k, model 46285). You can use a hacksaw to cut the outer lens off (there's a lip all the way around the front edge which makes it easy to guide the hacksaw blade), and then remove 3-4 small phllips-head screws holding LED lenses over the LEDs. That measures 5.04ppfd/watt. It costs $5.00.
The 8.5w lightbulb mentioned in the previous post (globeless & in a clamp-on reflector) is better: 5.38 ppfd/w. (It's also cheaper: $1.25 each.). But, you have to buy a reflector for that. Without the reflector (a more apples/apples comparison to the lensless floodlight), that lightbulb is 4.05ppfd/watt. So, for $3.75 more, you get 1ppfd/watt more (similar to the lightbulb with the added expense of an external reflector).
That floodlight out of the box (with the outer lens still installed) is 8.59ppfd/foot. With the outer lens removed (but the LED lenses still installed) it produces 12.02ppfd/ft.
It sounds like it would be better not to modify the floodlight. But, the light is very concentrated. Because it isn't spread evenly over the plant, the hardest hit leaves may not be able to convert that light as well as the less-intense leaves could. For better coverage, it might need more distance than the 11-12" which I measure from. If the distance increased to 17-18", the ppfd would be half.
The floodlight without any lenses could be (should be) closer to the plant (just like the globeless lightbulbs can be). If they were 6" from the plant, that would be 2-4x more ppfd. (At my 11-12" measuring height, there's a considerable amount of light falling outside the 18" grid I measure.).
Werebad
- 50
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Holy shitballs, Batman
JonnySuicide
- 31
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Just saw about the leds facing the same direction. Yes, they all face the same way with the diffuser gone. Ill post a pic of the lamps later.
az2000
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That makes a huge difference, like the LED lightbulbs with the globe removed. In the past, lightbulbs were omnidirectional. The packaging said 800 lumens (which counts the total light emitted from the bulb, in all direction, measured in a special chamber). You had to reflect that omnidirectional light to where you want it. Reflecting light creates a loss. (At that point lumens don't mean a lot. Consider an old 90w PAR38 floodlight's lumens. That light's measured in the same special chamber as the omnidirectinal 100w lightbulb. The PAR38's lumens represent half the light being reflected. It would look worse in terms of lumens per watt than the omnidirectinal 100w lightbulb. But, the PAR38 would be far more effective growing -- because you want the light going where its needed-- not everywhere like an omnidirectional.).
That's why measuring lux (the amount of lumens falling on a surface) is a better way to compare lights (for the purpose of growing a plant). That will take into account reflection loss, how concentrated the reflected light is. But, product packaging doesn't show that. (Measuring ppfd is better because it measures actual spectrum a plant can use. But, lux is ok for white light. All warm bulbs should have about the same spectrum; all the cool bulbs should too. For comparing white light, lux is close enough. You can buy a lux meter for $20. (ppfd is like lux, in the sense that it measures the amount of par light falling on a particular surface. Not total par light radiated by the fixture.).
Anyway, the way LED lightbulbs (and the under-counter flour-like fixtures) have the LEDs surface mounted, all facing the same direction... that's like a windfall for growers. 10 years go people would have killed to have that kind of light which didn't need reflecting.
LED lightbulbs (and flouro-like fixtures) use lossy diffusors to make it omnidirectional. It's like a win-win. By removing the plastic globe, you eliminate absorption and reflection loss. You get the directional light you want, without trying to make it be something it isn't. (They're making it something it isn't using the diffusor.). It's like the exact opposite of the old days when lights were omnidirectional by design, and you had to make it something it wasn't. Now you make it what it is (by eliminating the diffusor), and you get phenomenal efficiency (lux, ppfd, whatever you want to measure). If you could measure the lumens (in a special sphere), they'd go way up without the diffusor. Whereas, if you measured a traditional lightbulb, it would go down if you reflected that light where you want it (the way the LED lightbulb does naturally, after removing the diffusor).
It's cheap, efficient light. Get rid of the diffusor, and it's better than the packaging might suggest. Vastly better. Like 200% better. (Where, if you reflected an old omnidirectional light, it would be 30% worse than the packaging suggests.).
Last night I measured GE "Basic" PAR20, 6.5w 40-degree floodlights. They cost $4.50 at Lowes, and come in 3000k & 5000k. Those create slightly more ppfd/watt than the PAR38 11w GE Basic I measured. The latter were a little strong. They'd be good for sidelighting from a top-down angle. These PAR20s would be good for sidelighting from the tent legs, close up against the plant (4-6"). The front lens pries off using a small screwdriver. What you end up with is essentially a 6.5w lightbulb with an integrated reflector. It's very even lighting, not focused into a beam.
The $1.50 8.5w GE "Basic" lightbulbs are cheaper if you invest in the clamp-on reflector. Then you have reflectors you can use forever, just swapping out cheap lightbulbs. But, the clamp-on reflector costs $10. (And, you have to store the reflector very carefully. They're thin metal, and won't take much bumps.). If someone's tight on money, spending $3-$3.50 more for the PAR20 or PAR38 might be a quick way to get the same light efficiency.
I've grown with Philips 8.5w.[1] I think you can still find that online. Globeless & reflected (in a 5-1/2" clamp-on reflector), it has 5.79 ppfd/w. The GE "basic" (sold at Lowes) 8.5w is 5.38ppfd/w (globeless & same reflector).
So, I'm sure that would grow, even though I haven't grown with that GE.
The GE "basic" PAR38 (11w) is 5.04ppfd/w. And, the PAR20 (6.5w) is 5.50ppfd/w.
[Note: these lenseless floodlights have a fair amount of light falling outside my 18" grid. I measure all the lights from 12" above the grid. But, I'm thinking I should measure another way: with the distance adjusted for optimal/maxiumum light in the 18" grid. These PAR-xx fixtures could be closer to the measuring grid. That would increase their ppfd/w. (But, the globeless/reflectored lightbulbs can be closer too. So, maybe it's a non issue.).]
The point is: I got good results with those 5.79ppfd/w Phillips bulbs. Everything mentioned above is in that same range. Some of these variations may have something to do with how tall the lamp base is (where the LEDs are within the clamp-on reflector, how they focus). For example, I grew with 10w GE Brightsticks. They're only 4.24ppfd/w. They grew well too. The reason they might have measured lower is because their base is taller. (They might not focus the same way in the clamp-on reflector.) So, I'm sure these GE lights would grow well. They're definitely in the range.
But, the original point I was making: what makes them so good is how the LEDs all face where you want the light to be. That's a huge efficiency compared to reflecting a traditional light where you want it. (I measured a CFL's lux. A 60w-equiv CFL in a 5-1/2" clamp-on reflector had an average 508 lumens falling onto a 2x2' space. A globeless & reflected Philips 8.5w lightbulb (the one mentioned above) had 1051 lumens. And, it did that over 100% increase in light using 44% less watts/heat.
I just measured that same CFL with my par meter (in a 5-1/2" clamp-on reflector): 1.75ppfd/watt.
We know people have grown with CFLs in the past (I bet some people still do). The LED lightbulbs (with globe removed) are 2.5x more light. (Put the globeless LED lightbulb in a reflector: 3x or more light)
[1] Model: 8.5A19/LED/827 ND 120V
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Gweedo
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DIY dollar a watt of proper spectrum light cant be beat, and once you do it you can help all your buddies out with badass lights, 340$ for 320 true watts, over a 2x4 pulled 10.5oz set at 250watts just some food for thought lol
78OzFinest
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nice build man!
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