LED Lights should I buy this or something else?

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Maxwax

Maxwax

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I don't know of very many lights that cost more than the HLG Scorpion Diablo. It's a great light, no question ... but it's up-front cost stops a lot of people from purchasing it. Yes, it's cheaper to operate than some of the others. However, lighting is only ONE variable and will not in and of itself, make or break your grow. Your grow skills are the difference maker in my opinion.
It costs twice what most entire grow setups cost. Plus if you dont run Co2 its way overkill. Im not a light scientist and cant differentiate light spectrum qualities and differences but its a 1300 dollar light on sale. These lights are cool, and Im generally an overkill sortof guy but theres a ton of great lights available for half the cost of these IMO.
 
C

Christos1974

186
43
I don't know of very many lights that cost more than the HLG Scorpion Diablo. It's a great light, no question ... but it's up-front cost stops a lot of people from purchasing it. Yes, it's cheaper to operate than some of the others. However, lighting is only ONE variable and will not in and of itself, make or break your grow. Your grow skills are the difference maker in my opinion.
I agree. There is no substitute for experience. I also think that no matter what light is used people must be realistic in their expectations when growing indoors, if it's extremely large plants and yield you're looking for then grow outdoors, if it's 3-5ft high quality plants then grow indoors, I think new growers need to consider what exactly they're attempting to achieve when growing cannabis, in my humble opinion of course. Have a great day my fellow growers.
 
Anthem

Anthem

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It costs twice what most entire grow setups cost. Plus if you dont run Co2 its way overkill. Im not a light scientist and cant differentiate light spectrum qualities and differences but its a 1300 dollar light on sale. These lights are cool, and Im generally an overkill sortof guy but theres a ton of great lights available for half the cost of these IMO.
I really despise these led light arguments because there is a general lack of understanding about cost and use. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen someone new come to the sight and state this or that about a light. Bottom line is the plant will grow to its ultimate genetic expression in the perfect conditions. While light is light and they all will grow plants some will do so for longer and better than others. Some will work well for a period of time and slowly start to loose performance while others will continue to work at the same performance level for longer periods of time.
There have been too many come on this site with issues with MARS lights to even consider them to be on the same playing field as other lights I can even a test to this. Take a look at the number of diodes each light has and the performance of the light (PPFD). The number of diodes the fixture uses is directly related to the longevity of the fixture. A fixture with 3300 diodes producing 1700 PPFD is going to outlast a similar fixture using less diodes and obtaining the same PPFD. This is where some of the cost difference occurs. Also it is physically impossible for a light with say 2600 diodes to product the same or similar PPFD as a light with 3300 diodes as the same efficacy.
 
D

Drasik

48
18
I don't know of very many lights that cost more than the HLG Scorpion Diablo. It's a great light, no question ... but it's up-front cost stops a lot of people from purchasing it. Yes, it's cheaper to operate than some of the others. However, lighting is only ONE variable and will not in and of itself, make or break your grow. Your grow skills are the difference maker in my opinion.
What's the cheapest price you've found them at?
 
D

Drasik

48
18
I really despise these led light arguments because there is a general lack of understanding about cost and use. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen someone new come to the sight and state this or that about a light. Bottom line is the plant will grow to its ultimate genetic expression in the perfect conditions. While light is light and they all will grow plants some will do so for longer and better than others. Some will work well for a period of time and slowly start to loose performance while others will continue to work at the same performance level for longer periods of time.
There have been too many come on this site with issues with MARS lights to even consider them to be on the same playing field as other lights I can even a test to this. Take a look at the number of diodes each light has and the performance of the light (PPFD). The number of diodes the fixture uses is directly related to the longevity of the fixture. A fixture with 3300 diodes producing 1700 PPFD is going to outlast a similar fixture using less diodes and obtaining the same PPFD. This is where some of the cost difference occurs. Also it is physically impossible for a light with say 2600 diodes to product the same or similar PPFD as a light with 3300 diodes as the same efficacy.
Light is light but like you said if the genetics can thrive with a lot of light why not give it as much as it can take(granted you are also giving it the same proportional feed and Co2).This is especially true if you can get 1100-1200 PPFD and hit 2 lbs plus a light (I've never seen them thrive past 1200 PPFD but Dr.Bugbee says some of his research has shown them flourishing at 1800) . The difference I've found in testing different PAR and spectrum values over the past 2 year was that many plants seemed to thrive with traditional seasonally spectrums, more so from plants that were bred outdoors and then f1s grown indoors. We've also noticed more plants nodes, thicker stocks and slightly higher cannabinoid content. I'd really like to put some studies together to show that light quality can make a difference so this is not just anecdotal information.
 
Chip.Douglas

Chip.Douglas

142
43
Amazon has a sell on maxsisun mf1000 for 50 bucks right now you can grab a couple for your tent or room and daisy chain them.
 
Anthem

Anthem

4,155
263
Light is light but like you said if the genetics can thrive with a lot of light why not give it as much as it can take(granted you are also giving it the same proportional feed and Co2).This is especially true if you can get 1100-1200 PPFD and hit 2 lbs plus a light (I've never seen them thrive past 1200 PPFD but Dr.Bugbee says some of his research has shown them flourishing at 1800) . The difference I've found in testing different PAR and spectrum values over the past 2 year was that many plants seemed to thrive with traditional seasonally spectrums, more so from plants that were bred outdoors and then f1s grown indoors. We've also noticed more plants nodes, thicker stocks and slightly higher cannabinoid content. I'd really like to put some studies together to show that light quality can make a difference so this is not just anecdotal information.
First of all, somewhere in this thread you mentioned a par meter. Par meters are no a good idea for measure light under LED's. Hence PPFD. So I am question your 2 years of research. Secondly, the higher the PPFD is pushed the harder it is for the plant and the grower to keep up with the plants needs. Myself I have been using LED's for about 5 years. I started using a shitty Mars light to veg plants in the closet for my green house. Once I choose to grow indoors I purchased a Gavita 1650E. It is not easy to use these lights because the plant will only grow to the weakest link. Meaning the higher the PPFD the more optimized the environment and nutrient uptake have to be. This is further explained by DR Bugbee in one of his videos. As the optimal environment, nutrient uptake and light are realized there will be direct changes required to the needs of the plant. This goes well above what any home grower can achieve. HLG is no longer the big boy on the block IMO. Fluence has came out with a spyder 2 pushing the PPFD to like 2180. This is getting close to the total amount of light the plant can handle in optimized conditions. Meaning that there are more changes to inputs required as the plant goes thru its life cycle. Even a complete nutrient line like Jacks 321 or Athena proline will require additional inputs at different times of the plants life as the PPFD is increased. This is not home growing. This is tissue samples ever week just to develop the lighting, nutrient and environmental needs of a specific strain. It will come down to having separate inputs for each nutrient in order to achieve the full genetic potential of each strain. This is the point as which the home grow will not be able to achieve the same results as a corporation with the controls to achieve these results. It is going to happen and soon than we all think.
You will see a particular strain that a large corporation is selling that a home grower cannot compete with the quality. It is not far off. Once this happens the tables will turn and said corporation is going to be producing better quality than the home grower. It will probably not occur in the US just because the US does not have a work force that can get the work done and not cause issues with bugs and such. It will probably be abroad, where the corporation can hire people will to work and not get stoned all day. They will probably have it set up so each employee showers and puts on a uniform before entering the grow areas. Bleach mats and overhead blowers will be employed. It will be interesting to see how large each grow room will be. I do not think they will be of the 200 or 300 light range but smaller so that if an infestation does occur the overall lose will not be too great.
 
MIGrampaUSA

MIGrampaUSA

3,732
263
What's the cheapest price you've found them at?
HLG Scorpion Diablo? I've seen them around $1100 locally on sale, but that's not recent and most places are back to $1349.00 - $1399. It was about a year ago that I saw that price. I bought the ROI-E720 instead.

P.S. Photontek is selling a 1000w CO2 led bar light that produces a ppfd of 2925. https://photontek-lighting.com/led/xt-1000w-co2-led/ It can be bought locally in my area for $1349

 
Anthem

Anthem

4,155
263
HLG Scorpion Diablo? I've seen them around $1100 locally on sale, but that's not recent and most places are back to $1349.00 - $1399. It was about a year ago that I saw that price. I bought the ROI-E720 instead.

P.S. Photontek is selling a 1000w CO2 led bar light that produces a ppfd of 2925. https://photontek-lighting.com/led/xt-1000w-co2-led/ It can be bought locally in my area for $1349

PPFD of 2925 is way too much for a home grower.
 
D

Drasik

48
18
HLG Scorpion Diablo? I've seen them around $1100 locally on sale, but that's not recent and most places are back to $1349.00 - $1399. It was about a year ago that I saw that price. I bought the ROI-E720 instead.

P.S. Photontek is selling a 1000w CO2 led bar light that produces a ppfd of 2925. https://photontek-lighting.com/led/xt-1000w-co2-led/ It can be bought locally in my area for $1349

 
D

Drasik

48
18
First of all, somewhere in this thread you mentioned a par meter. Par meters are no a good idea for measure light under LED's. Hence PPFD. So I am question your 2 years of research. Secondly, the higher the PPFD is pushed the harder it is for the plant and the grower to keep up with the plants needs. Myself I have been using LED's for about 5 years. I started using a shitty Mars light to veg plants in the closet for my green house. Once I choose to grow indoors I purchased a Gavita 1650E. It is not easy to use these lights because the plant will only grow to the weakest link. Meaning the higher the PPFD the more optimized the environment and nutrient uptake have to be. This is further explained by DR Bugbee in one of his videos. As the optimal environment, nutrient uptake and light are realized there will be direct changes required to the needs of the plant. This goes well above what any home grower can achieve. HLG is no longer the big boy on the block IMO. Fluence has came out with a spyder 2 pushing the PPFD to like 2180. This is getting close to the total amount of light the plant can handle in optimized conditions. Meaning that there are more changes to inputs required as the plant goes thru its life cycle. Even a complete nutrient line like Jacks 321 or Athena proline will require additional inputs at different times of the plants life as the PPFD is increased. This is not home growing. This is tissue samples ever week just to develop the lighting, nutrient and environmental needs of a specific strain. It will come down to having separate inputs for each nutrient in order to achieve the full genetic potential of each strain. This is the point as which the home grow will not be able to achieve the same results as a corporation with the controls to achieve these results. It is going to happen and soon than we all think.
You will see a particular strain that a large corporation is selling that a home grower cannot compete with the quality. It is not far off. Once this happens the tables will turn and said corporation is going to be producing better quality than the home grower. It will probably not occur in the US just because the US does not have a work force that can get the work done and not cause issues with bugs and such. It will probably be abroad, where the corporation can hire people will to work and not get stoned all day. They will probably have it set up so each employee showers and puts on a uniform before entering the grow areas. Bleach mats and overhead blowers will be employed. It will be interesting to see how large each grow room will be. I do not think they will be of the 200 or 300 light range but smaller so that if an infestation does occur the overall lose will not be too great.
"Par meters are no a good idea for measure light under LED's. Hence PPFD." what did you mean by this quote? How else would you measure PPFD without a PAR meter? How is it not a good measure, please explain what is a good measure??? We don't test out our equipment in a 4x4 tent in home grow environments. Most of testing is conducted at licensed producers, larger shops and high end hobbyists up here in Canada. You don't have to be a corporation to implement this level of control. I know home hobbyists that realize the maximum potential of their genetics by optimizing their environments and giving the plant the resources for it to become an uber quad.

"You will see a particular strain that a large corporation is selling that a home grower cannot compete with the quality" That the opposite from what I've seen. Smaller and legacy market participants grow WAYYYYY better flower than the large corporations. I work in the industry in Canada with craft growers all the way up to the big corporations. Smaller growers have the knowledge and may have had years or maybe even decades of experience with particular strain and through this knowledge they achieve quads while the corporations can only really hit trips. Large corporations push weight so they don't have the time nor want to spend the money to make a quad, while the home or smaller grower has the time and can provide better oversight over the plants because its a smaller batch. That's generally how things play out.

"They will probably have it set up so each employee showers and puts on a uniform before entering the grow areas. Bleach mats and overhead blowers will be employed. It will be interesting to see how large each grow room will be. I do not think they will be of the 200 or 300 light range but smaller so that if an infestation does occur the overall lose will not be too great." Grows are all shapes and sizes in Canada, some most use gowns and caps, some don't. I've been to one of the largest in the worlds its in Edmonton and at one point was the size of almost 3 football fields. A 100 lighter is considered a micro grow in Canada but I know grows that have 1000-1500 lights. There are also many grows like this in the US in Cali and OK that already have established large grows.

I can understand why you think it doesn't apply to home grows because maybe where you are it's illegal to home grow, so why go through all the trouble of optimizing everything when you can get caught. We don't have that issue here in Canada and home growers here do optimize lighting, Co2, feed and other inputs to grow fire on their own properties. We've been federally legal for 4 years now but many have had years of experience growing like because it's always been generally accepted in Canada. Amazing home growing has always been a thing in Canada don't be ignorant to what's been going on outside of your state.
 
D

Drasik

48
18
PPFD of 2925 is way too much for a home grower.
HLG Scorpion Diablo? I've seen them around $1100 locally on sale, but that's not recent and most places are back to $1349.00 - $1399. It was about a year ago that I saw that price. I bought the ROI-E720 instead.

P.S. Photontek is selling a 1000w CO2 led bar light that produces a ppfd of 2925. https://photontek-lighting.com/led/xt-1000w-co2-led/ It can be bought locally in my area for $1349

My original message got messed up. Here's what it should have said. "PPFD or PPF? 3000 PPFD will wreck a 4x8 space easy. Now that's a crazy industrial light.
Prices are high again because stock in low, global shipping issues. Its a challenge to even get our mfg to ship our lights at a reasonable cost these days."
 
Observationist

Observationist

5,320
313
LED hands down, you can pay for more light or, more cooling if using HPS

Good luck picking one out

there’s tons of options even some cheap Chinese LEDs CAN be decent.

just caution
 
Observationist

Observationist

5,320
313
i know that the new HLG lights can have the morning and after effects scheduled. It' be great if you go with that option for the price line.

Also, would you buy a Tesla, BMW or a Honda?
That sunset and sunrise seems pointless , anyone got any info on em?

plants don’t take long to “wake up” like we do, and are most efficient the first some hours of the cycle(?)
 
MIGrampaUSA

MIGrampaUSA

3,732
263
PPFD of 2925 is way too much for a home grower.
In most cases, yes. I just wanted to point out that there are higher output lights out there ... It's a great light and can be found at a similar price to the Scorpion Diablo, but for most of us it would bleach out the plants underneath it.

In truth, people put too much emphasis on the light. A good light with decent output will grow good buds if the plants are tended properly.
 
MIGrampaUSA

MIGrampaUSA

3,732
263
You are in a 4x4 if growing autoflowers I would buy a 2 cycle viperspectra 600w led reflector that is what I use, if growing photoperiod plants go with spider farmer, skip Mars overpriced garbage lights, the only cheap leds that really work are viperspectra and spider farmer.
My kingbrites rock out just as much bud as my ROI-E720 per watt. I also have a Spider Farmer SF4000. I don't notice a difference in the bud quality each light produces. I'm not suggesting that everyone order their lights from China because shipping prices and potential warranty claims should be considered as well.

There's a lot of good lights out there at many different price points. It's up to us to research what components are in each build. Quality components are key no matter where you purchase your light.
 
Anthem

Anthem

4,155
263
"Par meters are no a good idea for measure light under LED's. Hence PPFD." what did you mean by this quote? How else would you measure PPFD without a PAR meter? How is it not a good measure, please explain what is a good measure??? We don't test out our equipment in a 4x4 tent in home grow environments. Most of testing is conducted at licensed producers, larger shops and high end hobbyists up here in Canada. You don't have to be a corporation to implement this level of control. I know home hobbyists that realize the maximum potential of their genetics by optimizing their environments and giving the plant the resources for it to become an uber quad.
Yes as I expected. The best way to measure LED's is with a quantum sensor. Check out Apogee
"You will see a particular strain that a large corporation is selling that a home grower cannot compete with the quality" That the opposite from what I've seen. Smaller and legacy market participants grow WAYYYYY better flower than the large corporations. I work in the industry in Canada with craft growers all the way up to the big corporations. Smaller growers have the knowledge and may have had years or maybe even decades of experience with particular strain and through this knowledge they achieve quads while the corporations can only really hit trips. Large corporations push weight so they don't have the time nor want to spend the money to make a quad, while the home or smaller grower has the time and can provide better oversight over the plants because its a smaller batch. That's generally how things play out.
Yes you are correct the craft farmer has the upper hand because of their knowledge at the moment. But that is going to change in the near future. Once big business gets involved the quality and quantity will come down to as stated tissue analysis done very day or 2, all of the nutrients the plants need will be in separate stock tanks, grow room environments will be beyond what a craft farmer can achieve. Meaning they will have controls over say ..1 or .01 percent of temperature and humidity. They will have a recipe for every strain. It is just a matter of time. Big business has the money to invest and they will. Take a car assembly plant today, do they hand spray cars anymore. It is automated, you couple this with some color sanding and buffing and you have a high quality paint job. The same paint job costs what 10k from a custom paint shop but they are doing it for a fraction of the cost. They will get the upper hand it is just a matter of time. Money is hard to stop. Sure there is a opportunity for a craft farmer but once this thing blows up and international trading of cannabis is allowed, the craft farmer is DONE. Large corporations will find a location where labor and electricity are cheap and exploit it to no end. Also they will as mentioned have the upper hand because they will have data available that a craft farmer cannot afford. It is going to become much like car racing has become. There was a time not that long ago when a smart guy in his garage or small shop was competitive. Right now the craft farmer has the upper hand because of experience but science is going to win in the end. Couple this with cheap labor and cheap electrical and the craft farmer is going to lose.
"They will probably have it set up so each employee showers and puts on a uniform before entering the grow areas. Bleach mats and overhead blowers will be employed. It will be interesting to see how large each grow room will be. I do not think they will be of the 200 or 300 light range but smaller so that if an infestation does occur the overall lose will not be too great." Grows are all shapes and sizes in Canada, some most use gowns and caps, some don't. I've been to one of the largest in the worlds its in Edmonton and at one point was the size of almost 3 football fields. A 100 lighter is considered a micro grow in Canada but I know grows that have 1000-1500 lights. There are also many grows like this in the US in Cali and OK that already have established large grows.
This is more for my personal understanding and ideas than anything. I am interested in how much the corporation is willing to venture in regards to risk. Meaning 1500 lights at 6 weeks and a spider mite infestation is a huge risk. I just would like to see what input the nerdy accounts have to say about that part of the situation. Also 1500 lights taking down at once is a nightmare. I see more of a harvest every few days.
I can understand why you think it doesn't apply to home grows because maybe where you are it's illegal to home grow, so why go through all the trouble of optimizing everything when you can get caught. We don't have that issue here in Canada and home growers here do optimize lighting, Co2, feed and other inputs to grow fire on their own properties. We've been federally legal for 4 years now but many have had years of experience growing like because it's always been generally accepted in Canada. Amazing home growing has always been a thing in Canada don't be ignorant to what's been going on outside of your state.
I am not ignorant to what is going on in the cannabis world. Bottom line is as stated you cannot beat big money. They will think nothing of investing to make money. Once they can exploit cheap labor and cheap electricity the craft farmer is done. BTW I have control over all aspects of the grow. I am just stating what is fact. Big Business will win in the end. No way around it!!
 

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