Overuse of Eagle 20 and systemics makes resistant fungi

The standard agricultural approach to controlling fungus is copper ammonium. It is available inexpensively over-the-counter under the product name "Liqui-Cop" from the Brand Name "Monterey Gardens". It can be used both foliar and in fertigation.

In aqueous systems, an alternate approach is to use tiny amounts of "triple ammonia" to proactively control the development of fungi and water-borne plant diseases. It is not something to apply foliar. Also, "triple ammonia" is an excellent choice when you really want to clean your entire environment at the end of harvest. You will find it sold over-the-counter under the product names "Physan 20" and "Naccosan".
 

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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Ah, quaternary ammonium compounds. :)

Is copper ammonium as toxic to invertebrates as copper sulfate can be? I found an article not too long ago that was discussing this issue as it has affected apple growers, and how this problem of resistance of PM fungi, along with apple maggots, can really decimate some crops.

I personally am focusing on organic solutions (hoping you recall our previous discussion re: my own thinking with that term).

qupee, try this--don't read it if you're not interested. Your perception is not my goal, information is.
 
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There's like a group of you people that seem to just sit around waiting to make another doomsday vilification thread about some product, and ya'll are annoying as fuck with your preaching. Can it.
Are you for real? I checked your gallery and your u tube. The only thing exceptional about you is your mediocrity and ignorance. I don't understand why the mods don't just delete drivel like this. Thanks Seamaiden for the eagle 20 and pm threads. I believe we are neighbors. I think your RA vectoring is a distraction from the subject though only because I've seen PM happen to the healthiest looking plants. I firmly believe that a healthy plant can be infected at any time. I also think a lot of plants have it but never have outbreaks. One thing for sure here in CO, on the left side of the hill, if you have any fresh air going into your room you will have pm spores getting to your plants. Actinovate and compost tea takes care of it for me. I have also used tea tree oil and an emulsifier as a foliar and the results were very encouraging. What is discouraging is the thought of some awesome breeder coming up with a resistant strain of weed only to have it made irrelevant by some idiot with the cash to buy dangerous chemicals and the greed to think it only affects them. I will not put anything on my plants anymore that I am not willing to put my tongue on.
 
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true that ibtheman kicks the shit out of powdery mildew one time application i didnt even change my enviroment and havent seen a spot since
 

motherlode

@Rolln_J
Supporter
5,419
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There's like a group of you people that seem to just sit around waiting to make another doomsday vilification thread about some product, and ya'll are annoying as fuck with your preaching. Can it.

seriously?

you can totally choose not to read it

just go ahead and stick your head in the sand
 
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seriously?

you can totally choose not to read it

just go ahead and stick your head in the sand
Nah, fuck, just spray your buds with anything! Fuck it! Spray after harvest just to be sure! Its just chemicals, right? Aren't we made of chemicals? Its all the same....

:icon_animal26:
 
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ok look, same time this thread came up I saw half a dozen others between here and another site including people spouting insanity like "one drop on your skin and you will get cancer".

So this was the thread I dumped in. So sorry. Been a shitty time lately I'm getting straight robbed by a university through the govt. and in a bad mood.

Seamaiden, I reread your original post and this isn't exactly the thread I took it for. You are, of course, dead on that we should rotate products with different modes of action and use these products carefully. If a person doesn't know that they shouldn't be farming, but I suppose they do have to learn it somewhere initially, and why not here.

I'll maintain my opinion on the safety of myclobutanil, however.
 

motherlode

@Rolln_J
Supporter
5,419
313
ok look, same time this thread came up I saw half a dozen others between here and another site including people spouting insanity like "one drop on your skin and you will get cancer".

So this was the thread I dumped in. So sorry. Been a shitty time lately I'm getting straight robbed by a university through the govt. and in a bad mood.

Seamaiden, I reread your original post and this isn't exactly the thread I took it for. You are, of course, dead on that we should rotate products with different modes of action and use these products carefully. If a person doesn't know that they shouldn't be farming, but I suppose they do have to learn it somewhere initially, and why not here.

I'll maintain my opinion on the safety of myclobutanil, however.
word

I feel you - seriously - there are plenty of those threads
 
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Safety of myclobutinil:
Taken from the study:
"Myclobutanil is not expected to pose a direct hazard to wildlife or soil organisms. Avian reproduction studies did not demonstrate any toxicologically significant effects. However, the highest dose included in the study is less than the worst case, maximum residue estimates. Further information on this aspect will be provided by the company".
This stuff says right on the label to not let runoff go into rivers or lakes because it will fuck them up, but this study done by the regulating body that put GMO's all over Canada says it is not poisonous. Sorry, after reading that I didn't bother reading the rest. Qupee spray away. smoke up, but don't pass the duchy without at least telling.
 
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This isn't the place to debate myclobutanil. But get real, I don't have any runoff going into rivers and lakes, I'm not cropdusting the shit, and I've used Eagle exactly once, about to use it for only the second time. That will make, oh, about 5 ml of Eagle 20 I've removed from a bottle. And it's gone onto/will be going onto clones that never get flowered, only their clones do. Myclobutinil has been approved for use for nearly 20 years. Show me where it's fucked up any ecosystem.

Oh, and you didn't read any further because you apparently have an established belief and refuse to consider any additional information.

That's the definition of ignorant bro.

GMO's got nothing to do with myclobutanil. But disregarding everything said under the banner of an agency because of some other completely unrelated point you take an opposing side on is very insightful and thoughtful. Glad to see you put such balanced and logical consideration into what you're saying.
 
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rats were fed diets containing myclobutanil (79.6% purity) at concentrations of 0, 10, 30, 100, 300, 1000, 3000, 10000 and 30000 ppm for 3 months. The No Observed Effect Level (NOEL) was 100 ppm for males (equal to 4.9 mg ai/kg bw/day)
...
mice were fed diets containing myclobutanil (79.6% purity) at concentrations of 0, 3, 10, 30, 100, 300, 1000, 3000 and 10000 ppm for 3 months. The NOEL was 300 ppm for both males and females (equal to 44 mg ai/kg bw/day)
...
In a range-finding study, two beagle dogs/sex/dose were fed diets containing myclobutanil (78.4% purity) at concentrations of 0, 50, 250, 1000 or 4000 ppm for 4 weeks. The study NOEL was 250 ppm (equal to 7 mg ai/kg bw/day)
mg ai/kg bw/day is milligrams of active ingredient per kg of body weight per day.

What do you weigh? Let's say 80 kg. How much Eagle do you have to drink before you reach 400 mg of myclobutanil? I'm thinking about 2 Liters. And that would still be considered NOEL.


Sprague-Dawley rats were fed diets containing myclobutanil (90.4% and 91.4% purity) at concentrations of 0, 50, 200 and 800 ppm for 24 months. There was no evidence of oncogenicity. The study NOEL was 50 ppm (equal to 2.5 mg ai/kg bw/day for male rats and 3.2 mg ai/kg bw/day for female rats).
...
mice were fed diets containing myclobutanil (90.4% purity) at concentrations of 0, 20, 100, and 500 ppm. There was no evidence of oncogenesis. The study NOEL was 20 ppm (equal to 2.7 mg ai/kg bw/day for male mice and 3.2 mg ai/kg bw/day for female mice)
Still can be exposed to an awful lot for extended periods of time. This would be about a Liter per day for 2 years for you and me.


In a two generation two-litter per generation reproduction study, myclobutanil (78.4% purity) was administered in the diet to Sprague-Dawley rats at concentrations of 0, 50, 200 and 1000 ppm. P1 rats were treated for 8 weeks before mating, during mating, gestation, and lactation. F1a (P2) rats were exposed through their lives including at least 8 weeks after weaning at 22 days and before mating. The NOEL for parental effects was 50 ppm (equal to 3.7 mg ai/kg bw/day). General toxic effects were recorded at 200 ppm (15 mg ai/kg bw/day)
It's not even harmful to pregnant animals in substantial doses.


An ADI of 0.025 mg/kg bw/day has been assessed based on a NOEL of 2.5 mg/kg bw/day in a 2-year rat study and use of a 100-fold safety factor.
0.025 mg/kg bw is still probably 10 ml of Eagle. That's a government sanctioned allowable food intake, with 100-fold safety factor.

After my next application of Eagle 20 I will have used less than 10 ml total, ever, on plants that never saw a bowl.


on apples and grapes respectively, and a preharvest interval (PHI) of 14 days

You want to exchange quotes?

This stuff says right on the label to not let runoff go into rivers or lakes because it will fuck them up
Really? That's what the label says? You need to improve your critical thinking skills and reading comprehension.

Do not apply directly to water or to areas where surface water is present, or to intertidal areas below the mean high water mark. Do not contaminate water when disposing of equipment washwaters. Do not apply when weather conditions favor drift or runoff from areas treated.
That's what the label says. And it applies to agricultural use, where you measure in gallons of active ingredient per hectare.

Extensive residue data generated using the above methods have shown that when crops are treated in accordance with the label directions (multiple applications at 136 g ai/ha for apples and 80 g ai/ha for grapes and the last application at 14 days before normal harvest), the following maximum residue limits (MRL) may be required to cover the total residues of the parent myclobutanil and its major metabolites:

Apples 0.5 ppm
Grapes 1.0 ppm
Raisins 10.0 ppm

The theoretical daily intake (TDI) of residues by the general population for the proposed uses on apples and grapes, including processed products of apples and grapes, the intake from wine consumed by the total adult population, and potential residues in meat and milk, assuming maximum residues at all times, would not exceed 0.0030 mg/kg bw/day, and represents approximately 12% of the ADI of 0.025 mg/kg bw/day.

So, give me a fucking break dude.
How much myclobutanil is in my duchy?
Your talking out your ass.

Even after knowing all this, seeing a 14 day PHI on apples and grapes, reading the label that says it's only toxic to some aquatic life - I still only treat never flowered clones and then only once so far and then only after trying every other PM treatment I could find on these forums and on PM that strangely only affected a single pheno of a single strain - despite those affected plants rubbing shoulders with plenty of others (it's not my damn environment), and I actually did take the time to explain the whole damn situation to the people I know (how many can honestly say that).

So anyone who said I'm careless, reckless, clueless, or ignorant can piss off.
 
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Ans Seamaiden sorry again for dumping this all in your thread, but people are standing here quoting researching stating in no uncertain terms that myclobutanil has low toxicity and then saying they refuse to read anymore because they just know its toxic.

Again, I will reiterate that you are entirely correct about resistant fungi developing, and there's plenty of info out there covering it (one small example).

More of a concern for those farming on a larger scale, and particularly outdoors, imho.

A discussion about other available products that have different modes of action, low toxicity and are suitable for consumable crops would be more useful, so people would know what to use in rotation. again, imho.
 

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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638
No worries, information is what I'm aiming for, qupee. GOOD information, not the "one drop on your skin and you'll get cancer!" stuff, but real information, presented so that those who don't seem to like reading labels might learn something. It also goes to a larger issue of misuse and overuse of all such products by which we may ultimately end up being hoist with our chemical petards, MRSA being one such hoist... errr... petard.
 
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Seamaiden, do you have an established group of PM controls you rotate? Maybe another thread discussing such?

I learned a lot about proper pest & disease management when I encountered mites - the first significant pest infestation I had.

I have to admit I was a clueless for some time that modes of action and rotation was important for disease management, too. There's a lot more of that info when it comes to mites (and, lately, aphids) then for PM.

Interestingly, and unrelated, I tried applying Jaz Rose Spray to increase trichrome coverage on a couple test plants - and I noticed that my visible PM symptoms on the leaves all but disappeared.

Jaz Rose Spray contains something very similar to jasmonic acid. If I understand correctly its a PGR and related to stress response.

As another aside, I wonder if the message would be more effectively communicated if it were more along the lines of "This one product isn't enough. You'll have more effective control of your problem if you rotate between products with different modes of action, such as x, y, and z." rather than "You'll cause problems if you don't use more than one mode of action against this organism."

Just a thought.
 
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maybe u need to rotate the milk / baking soda but no need to rotate one spray of eagle job done no resistance at all
 
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maybe u need to rotate the milk / baking soda but no need to rotate one spray of eagle job done no resistance at all
That's simply not true.

I know a lot of people report success with one application, but that is not always the case. I'm truly glad it was for you, but my fight has proven more challenging.
 
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