SCROG OUT OF CONTROL ... What did I do wrong... and how do I fix it?

[Eledin]

I use what worked for the mother...

24 8 16 divide by 8 = 3 1 2 and
15 30 15 divide by 15 = 1 2 1

Now it doesn't look as extreme.. its just more concentration of NPK per ml or tsp

Now it really becomes more of a matter of PPM... I realized in my first grow I was underfeeding the mother only after finding a long lost ppm meter did I realize the recommended dosage by the manufacture is less than 1/2 what the plant wanted.

last feed (2nd grow) they were only receiving 585 ppm with a RO of 450... I believe they should be getting closer to 900.. i'll have to double check.

I've learned from my last grow.. something you pointed out...and I concur that if majority of the plant looks great not to worry so much.. these had yellow leaves turning brown and dry duing their veg period.. It din't phase me long as the majority was green and healthy.

1-2-1 is as extreme as 15-30-15, it just seems less cause the numbers are smaller but it still only twice as much phosphorus as nitrogen and the same rate of potassium as nitrogen. For me giving the same ammount of nitrogen as potassium in flower and so little phopshorus aswell is a big no no, but some nute lines give you similar ratios to what youre using. Have you seen the PK liquids to fatten buds used in late flower? Well I dont use them because my base for flower has those ratios already with a bit of nitrogen, and the first 3 weeks of bloom I mix with veg.
Example of a typical PK fertilizer to fatten buds, this one is synthetic but there are organics aswell:

Now, if you use that with your base, even if it has high nitrogen the ratios are still gonna be way more P and K than N. Theyre used with suggars to fatten buds. About the PPM I dont know what to say, its been so long since I used one PPM meter that I cant give you an opinion on that.
"I've learned from my last grow.. something you pointed out...and I concur that if majority of the plant looks great not to worry so much.. these had yellow leaves turning brown and dry duing their veg period.. It din't phase me long as the majority was green and healthy."
Exactly, as long as its just a few leaves with minor signs its just the plant telling you what she likes and what she doesnt like, its totally fine. 1 leaf with nitrogen toxocity is nothing, it will still perform, the problem would be if all the plant had excess nitrogen, not just one leaf, then everything would get out of control because the ratio of nutes is umbalanced and theyre blocking each other causing other major deficiencies.

 

[SnappyJack]

Each of us as growers start on our own individual path and we learn as we proceed we follow some general guidelines we ask for advice… and hope for the best.

The fertilizer I have been using has only shown beneficial effects to the plants. The only negative effects I’ve seen from this fertilizer is not using enough or using too much.

Eledin... you would need to point out any specific deficiencies you see in my grows that would benefit from the change to the fertilizer you are/may recommend.

I 'm not a believer / sold on fertilizer manufacturers, hype, and promises… I may be new to growing cannabis this century… but I have been growing vegetables for 35 years… Humus / Compost added to the earth and occasional chickenshit... I Haven’t found anything to beat that… though some may think of me as a cheap farmer… I'd like to say I'm more of a Frugal farmer.

At the middle of my last grow ... PPM is how I avoid feeding too much or too little to the plants… It does take a little time to understand the numbers in relationship to the type of NPK / fertilizer you are using.. the reasons I’m staying with this particular ratio of fertilizer's.. is the longer I use it the.. better I get at using it.

Then... when I want to change things around a little bit (Bored) I'll try something different.

Mytwhyt.. thanks... at this point in time.. working with leaf mold / compost soil base... your link points to water base grows.. I'm not quite ready to put my mind into that post... but will in the future..

​

 

[Mytwhyt]

SJ This thread is about as old, and it does include a coco/perlite-based plant. It also follows the same routine as the other dwc plants same fert., and maintenance for defoliate. I did experiment a little to encourage a little more root growth below the pot. It helped a little. Can't cut and paste this one.
Google- mixed hydro- water culture- coco/perlite , if you want to see this one .

 

[Eledin]

Each of us as growers start on our own individual path and we learn as we proceed we follow some general guidelines we ask for advice… and hope for the best.

The fertilizer I have been using has only shown beneficial effects to the plants. The only negative effects I’ve seen from this fertilizer is not using enough or using too much.

Eledin... you would need to point out any specific deficiencies you see in my grows that would benefit from the change to the fertilizer you are/may recommend.

I 'm not a believer / sold on fertilizer manufacturers, hype, and promises… I may be new to growing cannabis this century… but I have been growing vegetables for 35 years… Humus / Compost added to the earth and occasional chickenshit... I Haven’t found anything to beat that… though some may think of me as a cheap farmer… I'd like to say I'm more of a Frugal farmer.

At the middle of my last grow ... PPM is how I avoid feeding too much or too little to the plants… It does take a little time to understand the numbers in relationship to the type of NPK / fertilizer you are using.. the reasons I’m staying with this particular ratio of fertilizer's.. is the longer I use it the.. better I get at using it.

Then... when I want to change things around a little bit (Bored) I'll try something different.

Mytwhyt.. thanks... at this point in time.. working with leaf mold / compost soil base... your link points to water base grows.. I'm not quite ready to put my mind into that post... but will in the future..

​

You dont have any defficiency, but you dont need to have one to improve the feeding for fatter buds. Its a well studied scientific fact that flowers, including weed of course, benefit from higher PK values after they stop growing (aka they dont really need that much nitrogen anymore). Higher PK value or a PK additive + suggars after week 3-4 is a way to get better buds.

PK Nutrients | The Importance of PK in Cannabis Plants

What do PK nutrients actually do? When should they be used? How many types of PK products are there? Discover everyting you need to know & more, right here!

www.growbarato.net

 

[SnappyJack]

You should notice in my last (first thread) grow... my concern for the early yellow of leaves...the actual reason for my 1st post... using the ppm meter let me know the real problem was me not feeding enough 15 30 15.. that I was feeding (250 ppm) less than 1/2 the recommended average ppm of 900 (actually more)

You said: "so long since I used one PPM meter that I cant give you an opinion on that"

Check out the site below... it may motivate you to rethink using ppm as extra tool in your arsenal for grows.

pH and PPM: Knowing What Your Plants Are Eating and How Much They Can Handle

Correct pH and PPM levels are the backbone of any grow room. In this article, we'll dive into what pH and PPM are, and what levels you should be going for in your grow.

growace.com

Eledin.. the product you recommend I'm sure is a quality product.. and most growers are aware of the P K importance in the flowering stage... however I prefer the (see below) products that I have used for many years... like any product their is a learning curve to how much a particular plant may require.. I'm learning...and yes cannabis can be a heavy eater.. I always start in moderation... actual less than the initial recommendations.. I pay attention to the plant.. and try to listen what it's telling me... sometimes I get the message.

Big buds are nice.. but a successful grow is of primary importance ... I've already growed more than I ever consumed in my life time.. cannot sell it here.. it's illegal...have way more to loose than I could ever gain from selling it...whatever is not used in pain management.. I will give away to friends.. or in some cases to strangers.

I grow it for the Journey.. and that's good enough for me.

Below are one time feeding per grow

Along with my regular feeding for flower 15 30 15​

 

[SnappyJack]

With all the above being said... my curled leaf taco.. whatever is spreading!
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My 1st thought was too much Nitrogen... then that went to too much water.. But the twist to this is only happening to newly formed top (cluster) fan leaves.. that are getting very little light... they are on the perimeter of the grid / screen and have grown to a height above the light. ( keeping the light close to the majority of the central colas forming.. yes there is a reason for this)

I stopped feeding veg fertilizer about 5 days ago... then notice additional tops forming claws. Today after going for a complete dry out (no water) for a few days I did a flush using water at a pH of 7 as the past Run Off pH was 5.5... today RO was 5.7...

Also I recall... that I may have missed dosing this pot with oyster crush... which could explain difficulty in getting pH in this pot to optimal levels.. as the first prepared pot hasn't been as pH problematic.

My thoughts are if this is a nitrogen OD.. this flush might put an end to clawing spreading... however my PPM levels seem very low at 225.

I also raised the light so the perimeter colas can get some more light... not sure if this indeed is the cause.. put perplexed why this is forming primarily on those colas that are the highest and at the perimeter... also considering reasons for why the end of the run / branch.

More to follow...

Not panicking... nope .... not panicking one bit.......... well ................... mmhhhhh

 

[Nio]

I suspect you are only making the problem worse with flushing. Would need to see pictures of your plants to try and diagnose. It might be pretty much anything without seeing pictures. It is possible even they were just hungry and thirsty, having started to use much more water and food due to their size. It often ends up being the exact opposite of what you though in hindsight.

Personally, my bet without pictures is that it is no Nitrogen OD- and the fault lies somewhere entirely else. This has in my opinion, nothing to do with nutrients and you should presume feeding immediately so you don't starve your plants.

EDIT: Ok my high ass finally got to last page to see the pictures... And i don't think that's a deficiency it's something else.

 

[Eledin]

Thank you for the link, Im well aware of the information I just dont need a PPM meter because Im gonna push the PPM nonetheless to the maxium the plant can take with the balance of nutes that I used already for many years. Whenever something goes south I can tell by just looking at the leaves and how to fix it. On top of that, as I told you in my previous post, my soil has a lot of PH and nutrient buffers that make for me very difficult to cause any significant damage by pushing them slowly. Even if I used a PPM meter I would push the PPM to the max capability of each plant individually. I do it by eye now and Im getting the same results so I dont bother, one thing less to do and no money spent on calibration packs and a decent PPM meter (Notice that I said I used to use one, for many years, in your case is useful because you probably cant read the plants as well. I would also use one if I were growing hydroponic because I would have no buffers or very little, there you gotta be careful). The PH on the other hand, I do meassure it, the PH buffers will help me if I fuck up the PH somehow several times, but theyre not unchangable. Also the PK product I posted is not high quality its just a cheap PK product, the first one that poped with the PK ammount in the mae, I use only organic and that one is synthetic.
As for the clawing of your new leaves, that has every sign of nitrogen toxicity in my textbook so doing a flush and inmediatly rebalance the nutes right after (you did the first you need the second one) is what I would do, otherwise as Nio said they will starve. Flushes are not good Im with Nio, but sometimes theyre the only solution to de-saturate the soil from a nutrient and is not like you have a carefully created biodiversity of bacteria and mycorrizae that youre gonna wipe out, and even if you did it can be rebuilt.

 

[SnappyJack]

Nio... Eledin... thanks for your inputs... No clear / decisive path to take... I'll just sit back.. watch and ..let it play out the next few days..

Their are no dark green leaves.. no real burning of tips.. no other anomalies I can notice. I will post some images tomorrow...

 

[SnappyJack]

MY 1ST SCROG DIARY
PREVIOUSLY: SCROG OUT OF CONTROL

Well into 16th day of 12/12 (or their about) ... stopping to reflect on the growth that has occurred:

Wanted to show 1st time scrogers what to expect in about 2 weeks of 12/12
​

Though it's mostly been smooth sailing.. the girls have developed a bit of a "hiccup" and I'm waiting for the "girls" more like the leaves to tell me something.

Overall the growths seem healthy... but they are a few that are definitely trying to tell me something.

​

For the past weeks I've placed the lights low to favor and encourage center growth and to spite the ones / leaders on the perimeter that have outpaced the majority of the grow.. yes they had me pissed off.. the original reason I posted this thread... cause I could see they were heading...OUT OF CONTROL... seems that they ended... again... out of control... or curling.

​

In the image above I highlighted a few of the major players... in this rebellion.. ( I should of cut the bastards off when I was thinking about it in the beginning)

Was it Nitrogen toxicity... I held back ferts.. Water issues: dry and full water / flush. with adjusting pH... .So then I raised the lights thinking they were trying to tell me... maybe... they wanted more light..

​

In yesterdays post I mentioned some thoughts on what's I've noticed... and just want to add the plant on the left, has only one.. I think end curl.
As I also mentioned... I let this play out a bit and see what develops... when they dry out... I go back to flower ferts.

 

[Eledin]

Much better with pictures, thanks. While it still looks like nitrogen deficiency, could you check the temperature of the canopy? I see the thermohygrometer on the right but believe me, the temperature right under the lights its gonna be way higher than what youre seeing there, or at least I think so...its like that in my case thats why my thermohygrometer has a probe (or whatever the name is in english) that I put in the middle of all of it on the top . It could be that theyre under too much heat, its not light stress cause they were not directly under the lights but it could be heat since theyre tall and closer to the heat. If thats the case I think its a mix of both, if not its nitrogen toxicity, or thats what I would diagnose on mine. More input from different people would be appreciated.
My long stems from the back of the tent also got a bit of heat stress cause they got too tall for their own good cause I couldnt pass them through the net but theyre not clawed, theyre just pointing downwards a bit. Here you can see it aswell as where I have the "probe"

For testing purposes you could hang yours with a string from one of the bars or try to use the net, but if you can notice a big fluctuation in temperature when you place your hand on the top canopy compared to when you place your hand close to the thermohygrometer you might have a clue.

 

[PooToe]

What I'm seeing mostly is TRELLISING vs actual ScrOGging. Everyone has their way but I define scrogging as using the net as a large LST device spreading branches out so that bud sites on the lower portions of the branch are getting as much light as the tops. What I'm seeing is many of you using the net to SUPPORT branching which, again, I would define as trellising.

I try and keep the net line as low as possible to the soil line to eliminate having to lollipop. I've been following this dudes grow on another site and he's got some pretty good ideas when it comes to setting up a successful ScrOG.

 

[Eledin]

Mine is a SCROG, but as good as x2 130W cheap panels allow me to do. Im using double neting this time so many top buds are not visible yet, but I do pass the branches and elongate them through the net horizontally. Notice how the branches in my back that I couldnt pass through the net are way higher, the rest is leveled even though you cant see the second net. I could improve it by LSTing the plants so I can spread the branches more but Im not willing to do that right now as I explained in a previous post. Is not a perfect SCROG but is a SCROG. Also you might have missed the fact that I have untoped autos on the sides to increase yield, I only toped the big 4 in the middle which are photo. Where can I find that guy youre following? Maybe there's something else I can improve without needing to LST before toping or right after toping. Also if you take a closer look to the internodal distance of the branches that are below the net you will understand why I lollipoped, the good internodal distance is only on top (again, I think because my LEDs are not quite there, I kept them as close as the plants allowed me to). Had I passed the branches so close to the ground most of it would be empty space in between nodes.

 

[SnappyJack]

Shitfoot.. thanks for stopping by.. looks like a real nice grow... so if what you got their is not a scrog... are you calling it a form of trellisbing... how about we call it trellascgrog?... so we don't confuse new growers... how many flower pots you have under that trellis... you know if you add a couple more pots to the front you would have a Sea Or Green..

My interpretation of a scrog:

Looks like their is more than one way to skin a cat... I'm guessing that goes for SCROG-IN
don't know how that b got in their.​

 

[SnappyJack]

Here is a close call... I mean a close up of the claw....

I'm concerned... (see ramble below) but will just keep an eye on it.

briefly considered temps but having the blue tooth monitor.. I don't think that's been an issue

During lights on the temp ranges from 64 to 69 F

Because the lights have large aluminum cooling... the majority of the heat from it is goes right to top of the tent .. and exhaust out.

This guy has been bugging me every morning.... that's what happen when you try to be nice....

Just of the top of my head
Be sure to take the following with a grain of salt... just spitting out some ramblings without refining them...​

I'm starting to think this could be a genetics thing... as I look at your plants i notice their are a darker green than mine (whose pushing nitrogen?) but then I'm thinking it's your camera image... no two of my many digital cameras has the exact same color balance.. this one I've been using comes close to what I see.

Over the past 6 day since noticing this anomaly... I've been visiting the top cannabis sites.. but it amounts to: if it ain't this... it's definitely this... until it's not then it most likely be this... no definite information...and it also shows up in the forums same thing... posting ends with no definitive reason / answer.

Eledin.. In your image... top left.. I notice their is some clawing also... or the appearance of it.

I'm starting to think.. some grows accelerate so fast.. above the pot and in it... that possibly being at the end of the supply chain... the leaders / end... just getting the right nutrients in the right order of use is not occurring in that the leaves are skipping the unfurling part just to catch up...all due to the super nutrients I've been using... Just Kidding.

Yes... I did think of the temperature issue... even about the wind burn / fan issue... all which I don't think are in play

From a top web site:

"Common signs of Nitrogen Toxicity:

Dark green leaves and foliage
Leaf tips may turn down, without signs of overwatering.
You may notice yellowing on the affected leaves or other signs of nutrient deficiencies as time goes on
Nitrogen toxicity is often but not always accompanied by nutrient burn
Leaf Curl or the Claw will happen first to older leaves then move up the plant
Heat and pH problems will make the claw affect worse, as they stress out the plant and lower her defenses, and cause her to drink more water (and uptake more N)
As time goes on, the claw leaves will eventually start turning yellow, getting spots, and dying"

"Leaf Curl or the Claw will happen first to older leaves then move up the plant" This one make me chuckle... because the reverse is happening.



That "thermohygrometer" is why I don't think it's a temp / humid issue though I have to be honest growing in a tent is much different than in a whole room.

The information below is transmitted from the thermohygrometer by Bluetooth to phone.. As you can see in the graph below temps humidity and VPD are in acceptable ranges be it erratic the averages are spot on for VPD

what?... no graphs... next update

End Of Ramble​

 

[Eledin]

Hahaha that little fella is cute, I wouldnt mind him bothering me every morning. No, the leaves you mention are not clawing, the tips are pointing downwards as I said where I marked in the photo because of heat issues I had, they stoped doing that as soon as I put the lights higher, I didnt cut in nitrogen one bit (not that I use much anyway during flower as I stated before) nor did I flush, I just moved the lights higher and problem solved. Tips pointing downwards is very different from clawing from nitrogen, clawing leaves curl on the sides and in the middle aswell, mine are not claw like. Curling or clawing is either heat stress, light stress or nitrogen toxicity but since the first two you insist that the parameters are okay it must be the nitrogen. Thats not genetics, if it were genetics it would have been showing from the start. I might be wrong about the nitrogen toxicity or the heat/light stress, but it certainly looks like that.
"Leaf Curl or the Claw will happen first to older leaves then move up the plant" This one make me chuckle... because the reverse is happening.
It did happen to one of your lower leaves first, if you search for nitrogen toxicity images you will see that its not always the case that all lower leaves are affected first, but because is only on top thats why Im thinking about other options aswell.
As for the color, as you said it can be the light or it can be the strain, Im growing Amnesia Haze, which has this olive green color by default, but the camera definetely makes them look greener than they are. Exactly the opposite happens with strawberry genetics, they are so pale you think youre under feeding them sometimes but theyre just pale by default. I still think it was nitrogen toxicity or heat, we will know soon since you flushed. If it keeps happening its not nitrogen toxicity. One thing you must consider is that just because it was succesful with one plant doesnt mean it will be with others, you will see how different are strains or even different seeds from the same strain in between each other with time, thats why some people prefeer to work with clones. One can be super hungry and the other one might not tolerate nutes very well, even if they are same strain, same badge of seeds.

 

[monkey47]

So if per chance a pro scrog-er comes across this page ... I'll repeat my question

How do I keep this under control?.. I know this strain will put on a foot or more of length during it's spurt of growth in flowering... where do I send the main leading stems... can I just top them as it seems I'm going to have an army of side risers.

I am pretty new at scrog myself. I dont pregrow my plants untill they are above the net for a certain lenght. I only start scrogging them when i flip them to 12/12 i top my plants after 2 weeks of pregrow and then I give them some time to recover from that before i flip them to 12/12.

some of my tops are horizontal up untill the point the plant is not growing in lenght anymore so they dont reach the next scrog hole so they start pointing upwards. almost my entie canopy is bud this way. I do around 0.8 grams/ watt of dried bud under HPS (3 days of drying in my flowering tent when I take note of the harves weight after that I put them in curing pots and i open them every couple of days for a day and then close them up again i dont put them on the scale after curing)

 

[SnappyJack]

monkey47... thanks for stopping buy... interesting approach.. if you got a camera... put up a close up images of "some of my tops are horizontal" good to see others methods.

eledin.. "One thing you must consider is that just because it was successful with one plant doesn't mean it will be with others,"

Yes I agree with that....I notice much difference from the mother to it's clones.. But so are lot of other differences in care.. clone vs seed... pot size and shape... prepared leaf soil vs garden soil (early month prior to trans)...no fertilizer used / fertilizers used... sun vs led... room vs tent (that's a big difference)...seasons effect... it was a lot to learn in a short time.. not the mechanics... the flow.... I would have to grow this female at least 3 more times before I began to think I've mastered her.... but then again who can master a female.... we are all slaves....

 

[SnappyJack]

MY 1ST SCROG DIARY...DAY 19 OF 12/12
PREVIOUSLY: SCROG OUT OF CONTROL​

For those of us / me / you just starting out with grow tents.. maybe some of this might help

I had a premonition that growing in a tent was some how going to be a lot different then growing in a room with a lot of cubic volume... and apparently that thought has come to fruition..

I'm quickly becoming aware that a tent has it's own micro climate and is kind of independent from where it's housed.. if you add in the plants respiration.. the heat of the lamps... yes even visiting and doing maintenance ..all this can quickly add up to mayhem... it's a balancing act to try to reach perfect:

VPD / VAPOR PRESSURE DEFICIT​

Problems I'm currently having with these two clones... were not visible in the mothers life span.. here are some recent graphs of the Environment... the answer to this problem may lie in the information below.. maybe not..

The red transition in these images indicate a point in environment I want to be aware of.

The piece of kit I'm using to monitor the environment has a setting for an alarm... for now it only shows up on the app

However to control temp and humidity in the grow tent... I try to adjust the current temp and humidity with a house current powered controller that turns the exhaust fan on and off. However even this has / should be constantly monitor as conditions outside the tent change. I'm currently of mind into locating a pid controller for the humidity and temperature.. My understanding is that a pid controller has a bit of software that anticipates changes and corrects for it changing on and off marker on the run.

All this in an attempt to reach the elusive perfect vpd.. go figure.

The temp-humid-history is recorded in the unit and transmitted in the app that calculates the vpd
​

More to follow later... fee free to add your experiences.

 

[PooToe]

MY 1ST SCROG DIARY...DAY 19 OF 12/12
PREVIOUSLY: SCROG OUT OF CONTROL​

For those of us / me / you just starting out with grow tents.. maybe some of this might help

I had a premonition that growing in a tent was some how going to be a lot different then growing in a room with a lot of cubic volume... and apparently that thought has come to fruition..

I'm quickly becoming aware that a tent has it's own micro climate and is kind of independent from where it's housed.. if you add in the plants respiration.. the heat of the lamps... yes even visiting and doing maintenance ..all this can quickly add up to mayhem... it's a balancing act to try to reach perfect:

VPD / VAPOR PRESSURE DEFICIT​

Problems I'm currently having with these two clones... were not visible in the mothers life span.. here are some recent graphs of the Environment... the answer to this problem may lie in the information below.. maybe not..

View attachment 2142844

The red transition in these images indicate a point in environment I want to be aware of.

View attachment 2142843

The piece of kit I'm using to monitor the environment has a setting for an alarm... for now it only shows up on the app

However to control temp and humidity in the grow tent... I try to adjust the current temp and humidity with a house current powered controller that turns the exhaust fan on and off. However even this has / should be constantly monitor as conditions outside the tent change. I'm currently of mind into locating a pid controller for the humidity and temperature.. My understanding is that a pid controller has a bit of software that anticipates changes and corrects for it changing on and off marker on the run.
View attachment 2142842
All this in an attempt to reach the elusive perfect vpd.. go figure.

The temp-humid-history is recorded in the unit and transmitted in the app that calculates the vpd
​

More to follow later... fee free to add your experiences.

Digital controller would control your environmental specs so you don't have to do it manually.

I use ACI's C67 but will be upgrading to their C69WiFi. Vivosun also has a controller.