tobh goes swimming Dutch style

[Lynch_Ironside]

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Well, it's been a few days and things have moved in a better direction. Growth rates have skyrocketed it seems and all the numbers are moving in the same direction now. pH is on the downswing, slowly, EC is dropping, and water levels are dropping. This tells me it's time for a res change due to acid rain conditions.

Forgive the short, detail-light post. End of a long, harsh workday so this is what I've got for now.

Glad to hear the good news

 

[Lynch_Ironside]

So no definitive explanation as to why your ph was skyrocketing? Did you switch to acid as your buffer? Could it have been a bad buffer?
Sorry for the all the questions just curious.

 

[tobh]

So no definitive explanation as to why your ph was skyrocketing? Did you switch to acid as your buffer? Could it have been a bad buffer?
Sorry for the all the questions just curious.

Well, I started using buffer from a new bottle instead of a nearly year old bottle I was using from my previous grow. Same label on the stuff, but it may have been bad? I don't know. I'm still seeing signs of deficiency but the pH is behaving now so that's a good thing. The fact it took nearly 50% less overall to get the pH in range is a big indicator as the buffer being the potential culprit.

Now my biggest issue is RH skyrocketing. This was a problem last round, and I will finally be buying a dehumidifier to resolve this.

 

[Lynch_Ironside]

Well, I started using buffer from a new bottle instead of a nearly year old bottle I was using from my previous grow. Same label on the stuff, but it may have been bad? I don't know. I'm still seeing signs of deficiency but the pH is behaving now so that's a good thing. The fact it took nearly 50% less overall to get the pH in range is a big indicator as the buffer being the potential culprit.

Now my biggest issue is RH skyrocketing. This was a problem last round, and I will finally be buying a dehumidifier to resolve this.

Had to be that buffer! Looking forward to your updates

 

[tobh]

I shouldn't have let em get this leggy... Oh well, they're all mostly back under the net now. I'm thinking a Jan 1 flip date should be on point with how things are going. This girl likes to stretch 2-3x so it'll be packed in there either way.

I'm thinking I probably should've done a res change out earlier this week and added in the MOAB to go along with the new school of thought for PK boosters being applied 2-3 weeks pre-flip. But, the instructions on the MOAB say to apply the first week to help set flower sites, and then again the last two to three weeks to assist with the bulking.

Anyways, here's some before and after pics. First pic was shot when I realized I needed to document just how serious it was getting. Light bleaching on some of the leaves... damn plants.

We'll see what happens this round, hopefully the pH doesn't go all fucky again as I filled the res with 6gal tap and 3gal distilled. Started at 89ppm.

 

[beluga]

I shouldn't have let em get this leggy... Oh well, they're all mostly back under the net now. I'm thinking a Jan 1 flip date should be on point with how things are going. This girl likes to stretch 2-3x so it'll be packed in there either way.

I'm thinking I probably should've done a res change out earlier this week and added in the MOAB to go along with the new school of thought for PK boosters being applied 2-3 weeks pre-flip. But, the instructions on the MOAB say to apply the first week to help set flower sites, and then again the last two to three weeks to assist with the bulking.

Anyways, here's some before and after pics. First pic was shot when I realized I needed to document just how serious it was getting. Light bleaching on some of the leaves... damn plants.

We'll see what happens this round, hopefully the pH doesn't go all fucky again as I filled the res with 6gal tap and 3gal distilled. Started at 89ppm.

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View attachment 1071107

Lookin good... I'm a weird purist and don't personally tend to like using screens, etc... but, damn if they don't make for real nice canopy maintenance...

Love flipping them on the 1st of the month... makes it easy on the ol' brain RAM.

 

[tobh]

Lookin good... I'm a weird purist and don't personally tend to like using screens, etc... but, damn if they don't make for real nice canopy maintenance...

Love flipping them on the 1st of the month... makes it easy on the ol' brain RAM.

Appreciate the compliment!

This is my first go using a screen at this scale (used to use em a lot in my micro grow days). It's a PITA, especially in a tent that is only really accessible from one side. But, as you said, the canopy maintenance is what killed my yields last run. It was a combination of factors, really, but the very non-uniform canopy sure didn't help matters.

I think next round will warrant a couple more sites as well. This two site has just taken way too long to get to a the point it's at, and i think the size of the buckets are going to be a limiting factor in terms of root mass. Live and learn ya know.

And agreed, I'm a software engineer by trade so my brain meat hardly ever functions outside of work. Keeping track of dates are not my forte lol that's why my phone's full of reminders haha

 

[beluga]

Appreciate the compliment!

This is my first go using a screen at this scale (used to use em a lot in my micro grow days). It's a PITA, especially in a tent that is only really accessible from one side. But, as you said, the canopy maintenance is what killed my yields last run. It was a combination of factors, really, but the very non-uniform canopy sure didn't help matters.

I think next round will warrant a couple more sites as well. This two site has just taken way too long to get to a the point it's at, and i think the size of the buckets are going to be a limiting factor in terms of root mass. Live and learn ya know.

And agreed, I'm a software engineer by trade so my brain meat hardly ever functions outside of work. Keeping track of dates are not my forte lol that's why my phone's full of reminders haha

Yeah, I think the screens have their time and place. LEDs with a few bushy plants?
Anything lollipopped or that naturally has leaders with few lateral sites? Skip it.
I know I'm envying the screen with this wily Trainwreck I have going right now...

 

[tobh]

Well, it's happened. The drain on site one is to a point of nearly completely clogged with roots. So, I'm going to need to do some root trimming. I don't have a choice at this point. Site one isn't draining fast enough during fertigation, so the bucket is filling up with water nearly to the top, and it's only a matter of days before it can no longer drain at all.

That being said, is there a right/wrong method for doing this? Should I anticipate the plant showing any kind of stress or other adverse symptoms post-trimming?

It's going to require some creativity given the drains are so small. If I run this system again, I for sure am upgrading the drain sizes. The 3/4" (I think) fittings I used are just not big enough. 2" should suffice I think. If I had an easy way of getting the plant out of the bucket I'd do the revision now but I cannot think of a way to get both plants out of the buckets without causing significant stress or damage this close to flipping to flower (flipping on the 1st).

@Lynch_Ironside I've determined what was causing the pH swings. It wasn't the buffer, it was the hydroguard. The bacteria would go on a reproduction spree after adding, and cause the pH to skyrocket over that 24hr period. Then, it'd taper back down to where I initially set it over the next 24hr period. Going forward, I won't be adding hydroguard as I'm sure there is enough cultural mass at this point to not require continued inoculation.

@Aqua Man your input would be very much appreciated! If you have ideas of how to safely get the plants out of the buckets or potential risks of root trimming, I'd love to hear em.

 

[Aqua Man]

I would get something to be able to put the lid on that supports it and let's the root dangle... they probably be pissiy for a couple hrs after but should not last long.

 

[tobh]

I would get something to be able to put the lid on that supports it and let's the root dangle... they probably be pissiy for a couple hrs after but should not last long.

There are no lids, the buckets are lined with paint strainer bags and filled with hydroton. I suppose I could run bungee straps under the screen and make em tight to hold the plants up to the screen (the screen is hung with yoyo's) and figure out a way of getting the table out from under the buckets.

With the buckets out, I'd also be able to go ahead and do the upgrade. Think that might happen this evening if the hardware store has suitable leak-proofing materials.

 

[Lynch_Ironside]

Well, it's happened. The drain on site one is to a point of nearly completely clogged with roots. So, I'm going to need to do some root trimming. I don't have a choice at this point. Site one isn't draining fast enough during fertigation, so the bucket is filling up with water nearly to the top, and it's only a matter of days before it can no longer drain at all.

That being said, is there a right/wrong method for doing this? Should I anticipate the plant showing any kind of stress or other adverse symptoms post-trimming?

It's going to require some creativity given the drains are so small. If I run this system again, I for sure am upgrading the drain sizes. The 3/4" (I think) fittings I used are just not big enough. 2" should suffice I think. If I had an easy way of getting the plant out of the bucket I'd do the revision now but I cannot think of a way to get both plants out of the buckets without causing significant stress or damage this close to flipping to flower (flipping on the 1st).

@Lynch_Ironside I've determined what was causing the pH swings. It wasn't the buffer, it was the hydroguard. The bacteria would go on a reproduction spree after adding, and cause the pH to skyrocket over that 24hr period. Then, it'd taper back down to where I initially set it over the next 24hr period. Going forward, I won't be adding hydroguard as I'm sure there is enough cultural mass at this point to not require continued inoculation.

@Aqua Man your input would be very much appreciated! If you have ideas of how to safely get the plants out of the buckets or potential risks of root trimming, I'd love to hear em.

So in the end it was the bacteria all along!? Crazy! Good to know. Could you place your current buckets into slightly larger ones or a single large tote and screen off the roots so they wouldn't be able to grow into the new drain holes?

 

[tobh]

So in the end it was the bacteria all along!? Crazy! Good to know. Could you place your current buckets into slightly larger ones or a single large tote and screen off the roots so they wouldn't be able to grow into the new drain holes?

I came to the conclusion of the bacteria being the culprit based off my latest res change. Once the pH settled down after the 24hr climb, it's progressively been dropping now, and everything else is in line with a healthy system.

Well, I just did one bucket, and that's all I'm doing. I'll be surprised if the plant survives given the re-installation process was anything but gentle. Pretty sure I did a number on the roots near where the rockwool starter cube is. It was a complete pita.

Wet hydroton is NOT light, even only 3gal, and working in a confined space. What I ended up doing was unscrewing two of the slats under the buckets and sliding them out of the way, then sliding the bucket down off the root ball. Reinstallation was not so smooth as that was no longer an option with the new drain setup.

If it does survive, it has an upgraded drain now, and the other's roots are trimmed up to where the hole is on the inside of the bucket drain. There were a lot more than I expected, roughly 12" of roots running in the drain pipe. If it weren't for the clogging, i would've just let em run all the way to the res. Now I'm delayed on flowering for another couple weeks to ensure they recover fine, and may be down one plant, which will make this entire run a wasted effort. Learning experience, but monumental waste of resources.

Overall, a few more lessons learned:

1. Design your system for easier accessibility/maintenance. Despite never planning on vegging this system as long as I have, I could've built some "safeties" into the system for situations like this. If I continue to run a system like this indoors, I'll do a four site system, veg for a quarter of the time, and do everything better overall.

2. Bigger drain holes may be a safer bet for this style of system with cannabis if intending on longer veg times. Otherwise, more sites are highly recommended.

3. Pay attention to the people that you're ripping your system designs from. I made a mistake in not having an additional 90* bend on the inside of the pot, pointing downward, which I believe is there to prevent exactly what's happened here.

 

[Lynch_Ironside]

I came to the conclusion of the bacteria being the culprit based off my latest res change. Once the pH settled down after the 24hr climb, it's progressively been dropping now, and everything else is in line with a healthy system.

Well, I just did one bucket, and that's all I'm doing. I'll be surprised if the plant survives given the re-installation process was anything but gentle. Pretty sure I did a number on the roots near where the rockwool starter cube is. It was a complete pita.

Wet hydroton is NOT light, even only 3gal, and working in a confined space. What I ended up doing was unscrewing two of the slats under the buckets and sliding them out of the way, then sliding the bucket down off the root ball. Reinstallation was not so smooth as that was no longer an option with the new drain setup.

If it does survive, it has an upgraded drain now, and the other's roots are trimmed up to where the hole is on the inside of the bucket drain. There were a lot more than I expected, roughly 12" of roots running in the drain pipe. If it weren't for the clogging, i would've just let em run all the way to the res. Now I'm delayed on flowering for another couple weeks to ensure they recover fine, and may be down one plant, which will make this entire run a wasted effort. Learning experience, but monumental waste of resources.

Overall, a few more lessons learned:

1. Design your system for easier accessibility/maintenance. Despite never planning on vegging this system as long as I have, I could've built some "safeties" into the system for situations like this. If I continue to run a system like this indoors, I'll do a four site system, veg for a quarter of the time, and do everything better overall.

2. Bigger drain holes may be a safer bet for this style of system with cannabis if intending on longer veg times. Otherwise, more sites are highly recommended.

3. Pay attention to the people that you're ripping your system designs from. I made a mistake in not having an additional 90* bend on the inside of the pot, pointing downward, which I believe is there to prevent exactly what's happened here.

Well man I hope she survives, its always disappointing when something doesn't work out but as long as we learn and adapt I think that's all that matters. Dont beat yourself up too bad! I know I'm still WAY in the red with what I've accomplished but itll come around eventually.

 

[tobh]

Well man I hope she survives, its always disappointing when something doesn't work out but as long as we learn and adapt I think that's all that matters. Dont beat yourself up too bad! I know I'm still WAY in the red with what I've accomplished but itll come around eventually.

That's where my grump is coming in right now. This was supposed to be the round that covered the expenses of starting back up. Losing one plant will be... devastating to say the least. This run has been fucked since the word go, tonight just emphasized it further. 2020's finale, I guess.

On another note, I've priced out rough estimates for building a UC system, and not including extra tidbits like PVC glue and random fittings, I think I can build the system for roughly $600. Less than half the cost of buying from Current Culture.

I'll throw together some diagrams and plans as I'm still at min two months out from being able to build it, and that should provide enough time to work out all the finite details and execute more flawlessly.

For the space I'm working with, any kind of RDWC is probably a better bet than what's in there now, at least in terms of time + expenses to yield. Already into double that for everything, but if after a harvest or two the cost is recouped, back in black is always good.

We'll see what happens though. they're not showing any significant signs of stress yet, so tomorrow morning will say everything that needs said. If no stress crops up, I'll flip on Friday as planned. Otherwise, it'll probably be mid-January when I flip.

 

[tobh]

Some pics of the roots.. I didn't grab any once I got the drain pipe down. Was trying to move as quick as possible as I didn't want the root sitting in stagnant air for too long.

And here's a quick sketch of the concept. I'll cut a hole in the tent in the corner, and put some kind of grommet there to prevent fabric fraying and facilitate future sealing of the hole should I choose to go a different route.

Basic specs:

Pumps:

1x Magnetic Drive pump (GPH to be determined, thinking bigger the better)
1x commercial air pump (already have, thing moves a TON of air)

Sites:

4x 12gal sterilite industrial totes
1x 40gal sterilite industrial tote
4x 10" net pots
8x 4" air stones

Piping:

9x 3" UC SpinTight Bulkheads
2x 10' 3" ID PVC pipe
5x 3" PVC pipe caps
6x 3" PVC Tee fittings
2x 3" PVC 90deg elbows
1x 10' 1/2" ID PVC pipe
9x brass fittings for standard aquarium line
1x 1" barbed, threaded fitting for water pump line
1x 15' 1" ID tubing (for water pump)
1x 10' 7/8" ID tubing (for air feed)

Other details will crop up as this plan comes together. There are some architectural details that need worked out still, but it's a concept that's been on my mind for some time.

 

[Lynch_Ironside]

I cant really say I know what it's like to have a really successful grow. I mean sure I've grown a few plants to harvest but feel like I was hamstrung by water issues and gnats. I still have the annoying reminder of them as a couple fly into my my face or up my nose at least once a day, I think they've taken up refuge in my house plants now. That being said I can't wait to have a grow where I feel like I've nailed it. I think itll click eventually.

Dude I totally get it. It's a pain in the ass to grab your phone or camera while you're struggling to try and fix something all hunched over in an awkward position.

Looks really cool, interested to see how it turns out. As the water is pumped up and trickles back to the reservoir it is also being oxygenated correct? So is the big air pump and all those stones needed? I've got my alita running 3 reservoirs but those are dwc.
Also are you planning on placing some type of screen, I feel like the roots may still follow the runoff towards the drain no matter how big the tote is, and with them following the path of least resistance you might have the same issue. Idk just thoughts rattling around. Let me know what you think.

 

[tobh]

Looks really cool, interested to see how it turns out. As the water is pumped up and trickles back to the reservoir it is also being oxygenated correct? So is the big air pump and all those stones needed? I've got my alita running 3 reservoirs but those are dwc.
Also are you planning on placing some type of screen, I feel like the roots may still follow the runoff towards the drain no matter how big the tote is, and with them following the path of least resistance you might have the same issue. Idk just thoughts rattling around. Let me know what you think.

So, UC systems work a bit different than one would expect. The water pump actually pulls out of the manifold at the far end of the site array. This creates a reverse flow situation where the large pipe plumbed to the reservoir is actually where the solution starts it's journey instead of returning to the epicenter. It took me watching about ten videos on YouTube to figure this out, honestly.

On the subject of the manifolds, I cannot identify if it's an absolute must that the epicenter feed pipe is exactly centered, or if the two 90deg elbows won't pose issues. I think with a large enough pump the system should overcome any resistance in flow caused by the elbows, but this is still an unanswered question in my research. Given the link will still be centered on the nearest manifold, I don't foresee any pressure differential issues within the main system.

The air stones are needed in each site (I'm literally referencing Current Cultures documentation for the concept) as the root growth in these is insanely fast. I'll be looking at 1-2 week veg times from rooted clone in this setup. Anything more, and I'll run into root clogging issues regardless. As for aeration, when the solution is returned to the epicenter, there will also be a waterfall as I'll plumb the return from the water pump to enter near the top of the res. All in all the goal is to have a highly oxygenated solution.

On that note, I will be finding some type of screen material that'll keep the roots at bay. I thought the paint filter bags would work but apparently roots are pernicious assholes and will grow through just about anything with any perforations. This is going to take some though, for sure. CC sends coned screens that insert into their bulkheads to help control root propagation into the manifolds, so I may see about acquiring those as well since I will be using their bulkheads anyways.

On another note, the plant I expected to be completely pissed off this morning, or dead, looks ok. A bit stressed, but not droopy or completely done for. The nerves were real last night though.

 

[Lynch_Ironside]

So, UC systems work a bit different than one would expect. The water pump actually pulls out of the manifold at the far end of the site array. This creates a reverse flow situation where the large pipe plumbed to the reservoir is actually where the solution starts it's journey instead of returning to the epicenter. It took me watching about ten videos on YouTube to figure this out, honestly.

On the subject of the manifolds, I cannot identify if it's an absolute must that the epicenter feed pipe is exactly centered, or if the two 90deg elbows won't pose issues. I think with a large enough pump the system should overcome any resistance in flow caused by the elbows, but this is still an unanswered question in my research. Given the link will still be centered on the nearest manifold, I don't foresee any pressure differential issues within the main system.

The air stones are needed in each site (I'm literally referencing Current Cultures documentation for the concept) as the root growth in these is insanely fast. I'll be looking at 1-2 week veg times from rooted clone in this setup. Anything more, and I'll run into root clogging issues regardless. As for aeration, when the solution is returned to the epicenter, there will also be a waterfall as I'll plumb the return from the water pump to enter near the top of the res. All in all the goal is to have a highly oxygenated solution.

On that note, I will be finding some type of screen material that'll keep the roots at bay. I thought the paint filter bags would work but apparently roots are pernicious assholes and will grow through just about anything with any perforations. This is going to take some though, for sure. CC sends coned screens that insert into their bulkheads to help control root propagation into the manifolds, so I may see about acquiring those as well since I will be using their bulkheads anyways.

On another note, the plant I expected to be completely pissed off this morning, or dead, looks ok. A bit stressed, but not droopy or completely done for. The nerves were real last night though.

Ahhh, I think I understand... I'll do some digging in YouTube.
That's great news man! Bravo! I've had quite a few sleepless nights worrying about my plants too, especially when I'm out of town

 

[PK1]

just tagging in tobh. nice grow dude., talk about root mass