Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

Iam suprised that with big legal grows in the states that allow it that this hasnt been done yet. Or maybe it has and the ops arent making the findings public to squash competition? And let the mysterious "dudding syndrome" continue its wallet draining course. Hell..I dont know.
Finding out the Virus sequencing is very important to the cannabis community. Specific phenos have been around to long just to let them go to waste by throwing them out based on a hunch. $1000(s) is a drop in a bucket to keep strains and long running phenos alive. The problem is that not a lot of labs will do the testing for the cannabis industry because of the legalities. They will soon open the doors to our community but hopefully not to late. I will continue to be in search of labs in the area.
 
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Finding out the Virus sequencing is very important to the cannabis community. Specific phenos have been around to long just to let them go to waste by throwing them out based on a hunch. $1000(s) is a drop in a bucket to keep strains and long running phenos alive. The problem is that not a lot of labs will do the testing for the cannabis industry because of the legalities. They will soon open the doors to our community but hopefully not to late. I will continue to be in search of labs in the area.
I would think in rec legal states like Cali and Colorado that regular greenhouse ag crop testing labs would be open now to do the testing. Big hot house tomato and veggie crop grower operations send leaf tissue samples into these labs on a routine basis to get accurate analysis reports and results of mineral/nutrient content for fertigation profile make up. As well as brix levels and plant disease/problem analysis. I would be suprised if big cannabis warehouse or greenhouse operations (they are popping up everywhere in legal rec states) havent at least thought about lab analysis of cannabis tissue. Its part of routine and par for the course in the regular veggie/fruit grower ag world. No reason for the greenhouse lab world to be scared away still. In legal states anywAys. Its not legal federally..yet. But its heading that way. I dont know. But the labs should open the doors to the legal cannabis growing boom. The money is there just like thw regular ag crop worlds money. Could Steep Hill Labs out west do this kind of testing? Or do they just test final product thc/terpene analysis reports?
 
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So i think I’ve discovered why duds happen. I have a unique situation where i have a dedicated veg spot and it’s not in the best condition I’ve come to the conclusion that insufficient lighting in veg and crowded plants increases the likelihood of duds
 
Havnt checked this thread in a bit but i have some new info to share. While searching around i found someone online that had a picture of a infected leaf and said that they tested positive for having tmv. I tracked him down and had a good chat with him, very cool dude. He gave me the name of the pathologist that he used. I got ahold of her and for only 280 bucks she can screen for viruses. She also says tmv can infact 100% infect cannabis and any one who argues that it cannot is doing the entire cannabis industry a diservice. She has proof that it infects cannabis... dudding syndrome seems to happen more if u have tmv but plants that have tmv dont necessarly always just dud out. Just some thoughts hopefully it can help shine some light on the tmv thing.
 
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I would think in rec legal states like Cali and Colorado that regular greenhouse ag crop testing labs would be open now to do the testing. Big hot house tomato and veggie crop grower operations send leaf tissue samples into these labs on a routine basis to get accurate analysis reports and results of mineral/nutrient content for fertigation profile make up. As well as brix levels and plant disease/problem analysis. I would be suprised if big cannabis warehouse or greenhouse operations (they are popping up everywhere in legal rec states) havent at least thought about lab analysis of cannabis tissue. Its part of routine and par for the course in the regular veggie/fruit grower ag world. No reason for the greenhouse lab world to be scared away still. In legal states anywAys. Its not legal federally..yet. But its heading that way. I dont know. But the labs should open the doors to the legal cannabis growing boom. The money is there just like thw regular ag crop worlds money. Could Steep Hill Labs out west do this kind of testing? Or do they just test final product thc/terpene analysis reports?
 
Steep hill dosnt proform tests of that sort. Just qa testing for rec weed. Theres a few places in cali who test cannabis tissue. The first place i went to dosnt have the availabilty to test for viruses just pathogens. Sofar the best place i found who can test for everything is the crop dr. She definatly knows what shes talking about i was incredibly impressed with her.
 
Anybody know this is? (uploaded pic) this thing is 3 weeks old. It has not grown at all and nothing between the first set of leaves. I got 5 OG kush (so they said) seeds from this promo. This is the only one that popped and that is all it has done.
 
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It might still make it. I had 1 this Spring sprouted with NOTHING between the cotyledons. Took a while before it got some real leaves. They were mangled-looking, first leaves were single, 2nd set came in with 5 fingers. Nodes stacked right on top of each other. She finally grew out of it and was normal. Just needed a little extra time and love!
Cool thing is (check the 2nd photo) her baby leaves came in covered with trichomes. Very sticky girl!
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I and many other members on the farm have been searching for a thread on this to no avail. Hopefully this thread helps us figure out what, exactly, this dudding syndrome is.


So when I clone off of a mother plant I have a few genetics that will throw "duds". dud plants grow regular until some point in the first two months when they will suddenly stop normal growth, throw out tiny leaves with lots (7-9) of blades, lots of nodes, and usually will throw large mature pistils at the nodes. Trying to bend the branches usually will break the branch off, and over time the plant's healthy leaves will turn necrotic and begin twisting/dying.

Plants that dud out never produce a decent yield and almost always have a sub-par smell (if any) and very few trichomes. They also smoke like shit.

I'll dig through for some pictures but it's strangely difficult to photograph, even next to a comparison plant.

Any ideas as to what we're seeing? I'm looking near and far for a lab that can do testing for various viruses, the top of the list are Barley Yellow Dwarf Virus (transmitted by aphids) and Fusarium, although these syptoms don't match the syptoms of fusarium I've heard reports from commercial growers of duds testing positive.

Another possibility is a carbon drain on the plant due to an overabundance of nutrient-mobilizing fungi, @DowNwithDirT was looking into this and hopefully can swing in to shed some light (he's been busy winning cups and popping beans so we'll see)

Even still, it could be caused by some sort of change in the media when soilless media is overwatered (oxygen deprivation : overfertilization?) since this problem seems to be mostly in soilless mixes.


let's go, what you got to add?!

This post has been edited to add the following:
Hey We Solidarity,



When I was still a hobby grower way back when I was still in school, I tried cloning and the first two attempts failed. As years went by in my 20’s I finally started to get the hang of it. Since my plants started from seed in dirt I figured it made sense to clone ‘em in dirt and that worked. For one year that year I had great clones grow into beauty girls. A couple years down the road I got seeds from a new company I’d never tried called SEED King. The first batch grew great and so did the clones. So the next time I ordered a second batch from them and right away the seeds didn’t look normal. When I started 6 only 4 germinated. Those grew nice until just before the start of flower then two died for no reason I could understand. The two survivors grew stunted but did flower but the flowers were tiny like popcorn. They were potent, good smoking though and I chalked that bad experience up to bad genetics and never bought seeds from that company again.



Those little popcorn Buds were hard to hand-trim too. Many years went by and I started going commercial. All my plants had big fat colas nice large canopy Buds and there were always the little few popcorn Buds at the bottom. I got so big I couldn’t hand-trim anymore and tried all the auto-trimmers but they never did a good job on those popcorn Buds. Then I found the Tom’s Tumble Trimmer which didn’t use blades but a mesh drum to trim which worked perfectly. But the coolest thing about it was it had a special smaller mesh for popcorn which trimmed those little ones perfect too. My first TTT worked so well we eventual got 4 more. Suddenly lots of my costumers all started asking for Girl Scout Cookies and I was hesitant at first but we eventually devoted a whole greenhouse to GSC cause the demand and profit margin was so high. I just dreaded trimming all those little girl Buds until I remembered how well my TTT did with those little popcorns on my regular crops and with that special “Popcorn” mesh all my Girl Scouts got trimmed to perfection. Now the demand for Girl Scouts is still high and we kept one of our TTT’s on that special mesh for doing a whole greenhouse every harvest! The coolest thing about our TTT’s that they never need cleaning or maintenance and still work like new after 4 years. I think they never need any maintenance cause they keep all the resin on the Buds and the trim where they belong. And the trim from our Popcorn Girl Scouts is so potent we make some awesome hash out of it for ourselves.



So the only thing I can think of to help you out with your problem WS, is to suggest to always keep your grow pest free and when you ever get weird plants don’t waste time with them or their mothers, pull ‘em and blame it all on bad genetics. Find a good seed strain you can trust and stick with that. I grow in BC and luckily I’ve never had pest problems and maybe its my climate I have to thank.
 
Yes, I plan on using Meristem Tissue cultures. Here's a picture to get an idea on how it works. Even if I can't figure out what is causing it, I can at least fix the problem. All my strains are going into tissue culture. Everything will be killed off and sterilized.
View attachment 407911


Some symptoms. Random leaf twisting.
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View attachment 407916

Pictures of my past work with my flow hood and agar cultures.
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Pictures of my old flow hood when it was unfinished.
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New flow hood that is getting built, it's unfinished. View attachment 407933
Hey Nightmare! Do you still practice TC? I don't know if you do it for other people but I would be happy to contract you for this process.
Thanks, Beachtown77
 
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It's been a long time since I originally posted in this thread. I have spent the past couple nights reading the entire thing.

2 years ago I received a cut from Canada that brought "duds" to my garden. I had GG4 a year before this and many other cuts and NEVER had a problem until this shitty cut made it's way in. I had never grown this particular strain, and it was a real bitch to root and grew like shit. I finally got a tester in to a bed. Well, that plant was a dud and in that same bed there were 7 other plants. Two of them had branches that dudded. Figured it was some weird random shit. Like an idiot I took soil from those beds and potted up other plants, that eventually found their way to other beds... and pretty soon it was a plant here, a plant there, a half a bed here, a full bed there...

I think it is important to note that a lot of people in this thread think they have duds, but they do not.

Dud symptoms are:

-Brittle stems (easiest way to identify-Shorter node spacing
-smaller fan leaves
-lateral branching
-Terrible trich production on fluffier, hairier buds

Variegation is not really a symptom of "dud", neither is leaf twisting, or crispy leaves, or nutrient deficiencies...

In my opinion, the culprit is stem nematodes. I successfully identified them in my garden thanks to people like @whatthe215, except I could not find them with his method. I instead used a pair of vice grips to crush a section of trunk while dripping a little water over the crushed part and on to a slide. This is a much better way to find them.

Here is a video I made of them:


After identifying them, I purchased a professional steamer (didn't work) and ultimately a large water heater to soak the soil with 160* water between runs (worked like a charm). I also added chitosan at 1/2 gram per gallon weekly, and lots of foliar and root pack.

Hot water fucks them up bigtime. I no longer have dud plants.

High temps in the room will also cause dudded flowers, especially on OG's. I think that if you see dudded flowers, try dropping temps to 71-74 for the whole grow and see if the strain still duds out... Dudded flowers are not the same as dudded plants. Dudded plants can be saved if you always take a healthy top for a cut, and continue to cull duds (you will become an expert at identifying them) and take healthy tops for a good long while. IME the nematodes have a hard time getting all the way to the tops. It really is a race against time though. You have to pull a cut before the plant is a full blown dud. Once it is full blown just toss it. I have cloned out of dudded FPOG, GG4, white bubba, Jew Gold, Wifi 43... so it is possible.

I now have a dud free operation and have had several successful runs of nortorious dudders (gg4, Jew Gold, etc). Be diligent and you can beat it. I have had it all, and not once have I scrapped a whole grow. Everything can be beaten, and kept away with a good IPM strategy.

Peace out and happy growing,

Cap
I'm surprised more folks aren't commenting on this post, seems pretty enlightening to me - Has anyone else experiencing 'dud' symptoms replicated @Capulator 's vice grip / microscope method for IDing the nematodes reliably?
 
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Has anyone else noticed that the most notoriously affected cultivars (OGs, Diesels, GG#4, GSCs, etc) are all notorious notorious Calcium hogs?

Could this have some relation to the Calcium oxalate crystals observed by @Ricksauce?

This could explain why hydro / coco / rockwool setups are more affected, they usually have lower levels of Calcium in fewer forms than a soil amended with dolemite lime and the like. Ca def isn't super common in soil, but it's certainly not unheard of either.

Has anyone experiencing duds tried extra Ca as a palliative?
 
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Did everyone solve this problem for themselves? Surprised the thread has died with how serious this has the potential to be...
 

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