Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

jumpincactus

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Wow …………… Excellent article

too bad most of the old participants in the early days of this thread around here anymore. Sounds to me this is what everyone was/is concerned about.
 
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You guys should read my thread on epigenetics effects causing cannabis mutations from stress. Something we are starting to see more and more on older clones. A phenomena creating duds.

 
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Here is my experience with gg4 dudding.
First off thanks to MYCO for blessing me with it over 2yrs ago! Wassup brother!
Ran great for a year straight, no problems. Then one or two I thought I mislabeled from a sour diesel. It yielded great, great bag appeal, very light "diesel" smell, but no taste, no gorilla terps at all. Myco texted me asking about dud probs and I was like no duds here, lol. Next crop more affected. I was losing my mind thinking I mislabeled. I started to read this thread and figured it out.
Signs of dudding.
1.horizontal growth
2. Snapping of stems in veg, if you cant bend it completely 180 degrees without a "snap" throw it away. This is the most important telltale sign out there, stems need to be soft and bendable...
3. Smaller leaves.
4. Shorter internodal spacing
Preventing dudding
1. No mother plant, ever! If u taker lower branch clones, game over, almost all were duds, learned the hard way. Top of mother cuttings is a crap shoot. Take top healthy vegging plant cuts.
2. Extra extra light in veg to get vigorous growth, cuts directly under light were good, farther away in corner became more dud prone.
3. Healthy veg for sure will get you through it. If they not "praying" to the light. Might be trouble.

I've tried all the remedies out there,nothing works, except for vigorous growth in veg. This dud thing is for REAL! It's crazy to see, I have literally had dud buds right next to perfect on the same branch! It'll make you lose your mind! If you got gorilla lately and all is good, trust me, dud problems will come!Give it 1 to 1.5yrs. Maybe you won't lose a whole room but you will see it, on a lower branch, or whatever. I guarantee it!!!! Wish you all luck and hope some of this might help a few.
I read through this whole thread and @palm eezy post has got to be the most valuable post in this thread in the advice given on how to protect your strain from getting duds. And I’ll explain why. For so many years, I’ve shielded the original legendary Og Kush clone only cut from this whole dud phenomena effect from happening when taking clones. And this past year it has started to creep up in my rooms after cloning from mothers that morphed into dud plants. See the picture below for the result of a clone that came from a mother plant that had mutated into a dud from epigenetic effects within the envíronment combined with a viroid infection.
2D151C9F-F539-464A-B801-EF451C829CC0.jpeg



It happened in 1 specific spot where mother plants were used for clones and they were not well taken care of and became stressed from the environment and clones were being taken from them and passed on to different grow spots in the process

Recent studies, research and testing have pin pointed the hplvd the hop latent virus as the root cause to the genetic mutation to the dud phenomena. A viroid found in hop plants that produce asymptomatic symptoms meaning, your plant can be infected but not develop any symptoms til much later when it may experience a traumatic stressful event within its environment. Similar to the HIV virus. What does this tell us that if you have a clone only cut for many years, the probability is very high you’ve picked up this virus over time from multiple cloning and having it next to other clones that could have infected it in the first place. This is why we are seeing all the old school clones like the og’s be the first to prop up and create duds. Which Is basically a cannabis mutation that usually comes about a stressed event in the environment that lowered the immune system of the plant and allowed the hplvd virus to over take it and morphed the mother plant that is now starting to show the symptoms of the viroid infection. Similar to having HIV and then lowering your immune system and developing full blown aids and getting actual symptoms.


I had written a post some time ago on a thread on the science on the loss of vigor over generation of clones.
I had made the claim that I do not use mother plants because it was tough to maintain them heathy given my circumstances and the way I have been successful in producing consistent results over time of weight and quality was by taking the tops of all the healthiest plants in veg to produce healthy clones for the long haul with no loss of vigor.

Then came this year after expanding operations with multiple partners who use mothers to create clones. I have had a wave of duds just hit me right smack in the face and has left me scratching my head thinking that it’s gotta be just the strain finally getting old and not able to produce good clones anymore on a consistent basis. Researching the last few weeks on why this may be happening I stumbled onto papers written by scholars of universities making claims that plants that are old and that have been cloned for many years have shown that epigenetic effects in their environment can cause the plant to change their genes to produce clones in response to the stressors of fighting back against infections they’ve they have encountered and acquired throughout their lifetime. A survival of the fittest trait that plants have and turn off specific genres to combat the changes experienced within their environment.

after reading palm eezy’s post on how to deal and mange duds and his #1 mention and advice was:

Preventing dudding
1. No mother plant, ever! If u taker lower branch clones, game over, almost all were duds, learned the hard way. Top of mother cuttings is a crap shoot. Take top healthy vegging plant cuts.”

This phrase struck a chord with me and solidified the fact why I may have been protecting myself in the past from duds because I was actually doing the same thing. I began to research today and I’ve found numerous scientific articles about the apical stem of the plant acting as the germline to shield plants from mutations in future generations


What does this mean? Whenever you create clone you are essentially creating a new plant with an apical stem or the main branch where all other branches come from and develop. The other branches, like the lower branches are known as somatic branches. The science article goes on to explain how “To avoid passing on new mutations to offspring, plants seem to minimize the number of divisions by the stem cells that make flowers and seeds” the apex branch. The top contains the defense mechanism to help the plant fight against mutations that can arise over time from the plant’s ability to develop defense mechanisms against infections and stressors in the environment. Mutations are a way for the plant to evolve itself to fight these things. Sometimes causing favorable traits and other times unfavorable traits that can lead to fruit yield reduction and other unfavorable traits. These defense mechanisms usually first arise in somatic branches.

I started to research somatic branches and stumbled upon this science article talking about the role of somatic mutations in the evolution of higher plants. SUMMARY - Because of the unique developmental features of higher plants, somatic mutations may enter the germline and be transmitted to the progeny. In the present review, the role of somatic mutations in higher plant evolution.

So this gives an explanation for the use of somatic branches the lower branches and their tendency to be the first branches to bring mutations after cloning. Somatic branches store the genetic code to help plants evolve and protect themselves from epigenetic factors experienced throughout the lifecycle of the plant. The older the plant, the more possibilities it has for stored mutation it has developed within its somatic branches . And the apex branch acts as the defender of the genes and has the least probability of mutating if you clone it because it stores the genetic code.

so best advice to keep duds at bay. Is to have a clean, sterile and stress free environment to keep your prized genetics. And always clone from the tops of the healthiest veg.

comments and feedback welcomed...

 
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The other observation I’ve had which starts with the question. why can a mother in generally good health and conditions produce good clones and still throw out a few duds in the process? If you think about that question, there is an implication that duds may not relate solely to a whole plant being a dud but specific branches that first start to dud and later where a clone is taken from. That’s why you can have a mother plant that can both produce duds and healthy clones. It’s when the mother plant is so badly effected from all the stress experienced throughout her life cycle and one can visually confirm and say she is a dud, is when it will most likely produce
mostly duds going forward. But from what I’m realizing now, is that duds can still happen from what one may consider a healthy looking mother plant If one takes the dud branch and clones it.

knowing now that the lower somatic branches of a mother plant contain the highest tendencies to potentially produce duds when cloned, to protect itself from external factors in the environment makes a lot of sense when you start to view them as potential asexual or seed reproduction mechanisms with the highest potential for epigenetic changes to survive extreme conditions within the environment. For example the creeper mutation is a mutation normally seen in tropical sativas that experience drought conditions and that are not getting enough water. It’s a mutation where branches start growing horizontal bowing down towards the ground and can even create new sets of roots to attach themselves to the soil in search for extra water. Does the pic attached look familiar? if you didn’t know that this was called creeper mutation, you might have labeled it a dud. In fact, one of the reasons why the mothers from this one spot began to mutate and started to produce duds, was because the lazy grower there was not watering them enough and I ended up finding out later from his roommate that on multiple occasions he walked in the veg room and saw the moms wilting because they were so dry and on the verge of dying. He quickly watered them and brought them back. But that specific stressor alone could have activated the necessary signals to turn on genes in the plant to start throwing out creeper branches going forward in search of water because the wild nature of the plant thought the drought conditions were coming back. As the plant created new branches that were part of the next cycles clones, the duds were showing up everywhere now because the epigenetic effects turned on the survival genes that would protect the plant going forward. This coupled with the many dormant viroids living inside the plant and that are waiting for the right opportunity to come out and shine when she is weak from the stress and the Immune defense system being low to create all the other curled leaf variations and mutations we are also seeing in these duds. And why do we tend to see duds mostly in the old prized clone only genetic cuts like the og Kush? I would probably think because it’s been around longer to record more epigenetic effects with potential to mutate throughout the strain’s living life cycle.
 
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Here is my experience with gg4 dudding.
First off thanks to MYCO for blessing me with it over 2yrs ago! Wassup brother!
Ran great for a year straight, no problems. Then one or two I thought I mislabeled from a sour diesel. It yielded great, great bag appeal, very light "diesel" smell, but no taste, no gorilla terps at all. Myco texted me asking about dud probs and I was like no duds here, lol. Next crop more affected. I was losing my mind thinking I mislabeled. I started to read this thread and figured it out.
Signs of dudding.
1.horizontal growth
2. Snapping of stems in veg, if you cant bend it completely 180 degrees without a "snap" throw it away. This is the most important telltale sign out there, stems need to be soft and bendable...
3. Smaller leaves.
4. Shorter internodal spacing
Preventing dudding
1. No mother plant, ever! If u taker lower branch clones, game over, almost all were duds, learned the hard way. Top of mother cuttings is a crap shoot. Take top healthy vegging plant cuts.
2. Extra extra light in veg to get vigorous growth, cuts directly under light were good, farther away in corner became more dud prone.
3. Healthy veg for sure will get you through it. If they not "praying" to the light. Might be trouble.

I've tried all the remedies out there,nothing works, except for vigorous growth in veg. This dud thing is for REAL! It's crazy to see, I have literally had dud buds right next to perfect on the same branch! It'll make you lose your mind! If you got gorilla lately and all is good, trust me, dud problems will come!Give it 1 to 1.5yrs. Maybe you won't lose a whole room but you will see it, on a lower branch, or whatever. I guarantee it!!!! Wish you all luck and hope some of this might help a few.
My bad bro... I credited the wrong person with the most useful post on this thread to keep duds away. Your info here is priceless...
 
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I observe stem discolorations yellow, red and in severe cases, brownish. Always brittle. If you can reach over and snap a plant with minimal torque, it's toast.

I get what your going for. Visual ID would be useful. I suspect everything other than the most healthy green stemmed individuals. If it doesn't have a solid healthy green stem I select it out. Red stripes are ok if they're incomplete, but the green has to be very green.

Green like this one below is good. Red striped stems aren't always bad but locked up stems often also turn very red or purple in my experience.
yes... exactly. These are the type of cuts I look for when cloning as well... very useful post here.
 
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Well genetics dictate a lot of a plants traits. Its environment usually dictates expression. Since the environment is the same, it has to be genetic. Some how a normally dormant gene became active and mutated the DNA?

When it happens in people, we call it a disease. Like Cancer. Not sure what's going on there but my money would be on mutation. Arguments might be made that stretching the cell lines out as long as some of us do, it might become more frequent as the generations go up.
 
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Well genetics dictate a lot of a plants traits. Its environment usually dictates expression. Since the environment is the same, it has to be genetic. Some how a normally dormant gene became active and mutated the DNA?

When it happens in people, we call it a disease. Like Cancer. Not sure what's going on there but my money would be on mutation. Arguments might be made that stretching the cell lines out as long as some of us do, it might become more frequent as the generations go up.
That’s a very interesting point you make. I see it as there negative mutations and positive one also. Many of the negative ones could happen when the plants ability to fight back against stressors from pathogens and the environment weaken its immune system to the point where it’s genetic code code is effected. Especially old cuttings that have been around for years and have been passed around for so long. They all have viruses, fungi and other pathogens living inside them and they have built up great tolerances within them to fight them and keep them at bay as long as they have healthy immune systems to combat them. But the minute you weaken their immune system with stressors in the environment, like over feed and not correct, too much heat etc, these pathogens take over them and they tend to resort to mutations after that and or their genetic code is compromised. I’ve had situations where there were mites but plants were super healthy, laid out a couple beethoven bombs and they fought back themselves the rest of the way and kept them at bay for the cycle. Other times I’ve seen mites on weak plants put the bombs, did the spraying and no use the webs still came and took them over.

Healthy and stress free veg is key. And always make sure to clone the best tops possible from veg from the ones that are thriving. If you run into duds and the percentage of them keep going up over time, you are not doing your job in finding the right branches to clone. Try bending them and if they snap obviously toss them. They will become mutants eventually. And if you are stuck with duds and nothing else. Get rid of everything. Go back to the guy who got you the clone and see if you can get back some healthy cuts. And slowly build up your stock again carefully with the methods provided on this thread.

There is a reason why I still have the original Og Kush clone only strain and many of the growers who had it in the early 2000’s had to get rid of it because they did not practice the fundamentals needed to keep a finicky clone only strain that’s hella of old alive and healthy for so long. They all had moms and took cuts from moms that weren’t kept in the best conditions possible. None of them have it anymore and I’ve given it a back to less than a handful of growers that I know will do
right things to keep her alive and provide insurance for me as well against potential accidents to lose her. Here I am now having to go back and take over the cloning of all my partners cause they did not practice
the fundamentals to keep a clone like
that in good conditions to keep thriving.
 
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All these scientist and researches that are now barely starting to study cannabis and that make claims like you shouldn’t trust the info on cannabis blogs because they have no expertise or the proper knowledge to diagnose problems and come up with solutions to manage them can all go to hell.

yes they may have the degrees etc but what they don’t have is the experience we have. Some of us have been at this for 20+
years and have found clever ways to overcome problems through all the trials and errors and challenges we’ve been able to overcome through out the years. How many rounds have we messed up in the early days that served as experience to make the proper adjustments to grow and learn from the observable mistakes to be better next time. That’s priceless

We are the true pioneers of this game because we’re operating and doing our thing when it was illegal and did it for the love and attachment we have developed towards the fucking best plant in the world...They’ll discredit us and say we don’t know what we are talking about but we are the ones with the experiences and we are the ones that have overcome all the obstacles to manage the situations. While they may have the science part down because of their deep knowledge of plants. They don’t have the solutions to apply them to cannabis like we do.
 
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RNA silencing is a plants way of combating viroids. The plant will silence it’s gene expression in an attempt to fight back against the virus or viroid. This leads to mutations. This explains the reason why a plant mutates itself to slow down the replication of the infection. Which can lead to stunted growth, irregular branching, deformed flowers with lower terpenes etc. It’s the plants natural defense mechanism to combat a virus or viroid that has gotten out of control in which the immune system of the plant can no longer keep at bay. What does the plant do to fight back it mutates.
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duds or ok? What you guys think? A spot I’ve been trying to clean up that’s was full of duds before. First got rid of all the bugs. Then worked on root formation. Enzymes and pro-biotics. Been spraying with aspirin. Stems bending again and not snapping. Fixed the ones that were salvageable and killed anything that was just way too mutated. OG Kush that came from Florida to LA back in 1996. Little bit underfed but I like to run it like that in order to get new cuttings. You can see the yellow in bottom leaves
 
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How duds of the Legendary LA OG Kush looks in flowering. It’s not crazy bad. Still some density and crystals. Nose is a little faint but can still smell the ogers faintly. But now way near its true genetic potential. Just goes to show how even a dud of this cut can compete with the other stuff out there. No excuse though. Not where it needs to be
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Hello Guys,

can we refresh the Discussion about this Topic by Dissecting some of the Things i wrote?

I am under the Impression that the Red/Purple Stems are Sign of an Pathogen Infection or at least of the Plant beeing in an clearly unfavorable Condition.
Yet alot of Growers dont seem to mind the Red/Purple Stems at all, they seem to attribute this and the lanky, stringy weak vegetative Growth to Genetics only.

Are Red/Purple Stems an Genetic Trait?

The Healthiest Plants i have seen are usually Outdoor(often with supplemental Lighting), usually Organic Fed including Cover Crops like Clover.
I think Lightspectrum may also play a Part in this Planthealth Isssue. I heard from several Nursery Owners that with the use of Plasma Lights or even Full Spectrum LED that their overall Planthealth is alot better.

Please keep the Discussion going.
Red purple stems have nothing to do with the dudding problem. That’s more of a nutrient problem. There is a lot of bad observations and advice on this thread.

In factif you look at most of the pictures with duds the stems have no red or purple. With my og strain seeing a little bit of red or purple in the stem is a sign that it’s a good branch to clone. They bend and don’t snap. The branches that snap on dudded plants have a pale green color. Notice the pale green color and irregular branching patterns. Bend the branch if it snaps it a dud branch.
86B8351D-9FE8-44A2-BF17-D2CB1F1FB6E7.jpeg
45E54297-5A3E-4981-892F-958A90B408CE.jpeg

A good branch can be green but not pale green and may have a little bit of red or purple in it. The green is usually a much more rich green . It looks like a normal healthy branch. The branch will bend and not snap.

A027378B-C41C-43B9-ADB8-1E1DB3766343.png


Another user in this thread posted a picture of a good green to look for. This I would agree is a good example of what to look for In clones. Notice the richness of the green stem. You can tell there is water inside of it. While the dudded stems look dehydrated and pale green and they snap like a dry branch.

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Thank you for your time and advice! I got gnats in my garden for 4 months after bringing in a new clone from a friend. I kinda gave up on the battle. Gonna try spinosad. I used spinosad on thrips and it works wonders. I sprayed it on gnats and it didn't die so I figure it doesn't work. Tho I've never soil drench with it.

I read that the Bayer aspirin can induce herming so i never tried it.

Thanks Soserthc1 ! Much appreciated!
If you want to get rid of gnats the best thing is imidacloprid. best if done in your clones and veg. I wouldn’t use it in flower as can be toxic. Been replying to old posts just to surface the best info on this thread. There is a lot of bad info on here as well.

The dudding problem has nothing to do with fungus, bacteria. It’s a viroid problem. Hop latent viroid. It’s usually asymptomatic in healthy plants with strong immune systems. It’s when a plant is stressed and when it’s immune system is compromised that the dudded symptoms appear. Having pests, fungi and bacteria will weaken the plants immune system and the viroid will take over the plant. The plant will mutate as a last resort to fight the viroid by silencing genes. That’s why plants dud. If you can keep your environment sterile and plants as healthy as possible and bug free it won’t dud. If all your plants dud there is a chance you can bring some back but most likely your best bet is to kill them, sterilize and start a new healthy plant.
 
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The jasmonates (JAs), including jasmonic acid and its derivatives, are plant hormones that control plant defenses against herbivore attack and pathogen infection; confer tolerance to abiotic stresses, including ozone, ultraviolet radiation, high temperatures, and freezing; and regulate various aspects of development, including root growth, stamen development, flowering, and leaf senescenc
64262B54-5C53-43C7-9A65-352A2AB93827.jpeg
 
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Great post here on how to recognize the dudding syndrome in your cannabis plants.

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Red purple stems have nothing to do with the dudding problem. That’s more of a nutrient problem. There is a lot of bad observations and advice on this thread.

In factif you look at most of the pictures with duds the stems have no red or purple. With my og strain seeing a little bit of red or purple in the stem is a sign that it’s a good branch to clone. They bend and don’t snap. The branches that snap on dudded plants have a pale green color. Notice the pale green color and irregular branching patterns. Bend the branch if it snaps it a dud branch.View attachment 908387View attachment 908388
A good branch can be green but not pale green and may have a little bit of red or purple in it. The green is usually a much more rich green . It looks like a normal healthy branch. The branch will bend and not snap.

View attachment 908390

Another user in this thread posted a picture of a good green to look for. This I would agree is a good example of what to look for In clones. Notice the richness of the green stem. You can tell there is water inside of it. While the dudded stems look dehydrated and pale green and they snap like a dry branch.

View attachment 908391
this is how that plant looks on the stems that dropped off the wood pile....... the lights are off right now but last night I was looking at all the stems cause there's a lot of diff colors going on... My eyes are not the best now and I need glasses but I can see there's 3-4 diff colors for sure on that plant... both those plants went though changes to fast.... the little guy was transplanted 2-3 times in a week, I had 1 other beans that went at the same time that seems to be ok.. but the diff between was they were both start form seed into RW 1st time using it...
then to a solo cup half full of soil
then to a 2 gal fad pot...... the 1 doing good I got all the RW of the tap root..... the one that didn't ( pic I sent) still had RW on the root.... I pulled it off last night the root looks f..ked old it's white but I don't think it's going to live.... we see in the next few day..... the other 1 that poped at the same time, I already have in the veg tent and it's taking the light at 38k right now so I'll let it roll, I seen last night it final moved a little so it's pass the transplant and the move to the veg tent.....

The one that dropped that is growing slow, I was thinking it had to do with the soil it was in so it got trans planted the other day to a 5 , I'll see how it goes form here.... if it turn out to be a F I'll run it I guess if it's a male it's not worth anything at this point i guess:) time will tell I guess
 
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this is how that plant looks on the stems that dropped off the wood pile....... the lights are off right now but last night I was looking at all the stems cause there's a lot of diff colors going on... My eyes are not the best now and I need glasses but I can see there's 3-4 diff colors for sure on that plant... both those plants went though changes to fast.... the little guy was transplanted 2-3 times in a week, I had 1 other beans that went at the same time that seems to be ok.. but the diff between was they were both start form seed into RW 1st time using it...
then to a solo cup half full of soil
then to a 2 gal fad pot...... the 1 doing good I got all the RW of the tap root..... the one that didn't ( pic I sent) still had RW on the root.... I pulled it off last night the root looks f..ked old it's white but I don't think it's going to live.... we see in the next few day..... the other 1 that poped at the same time, I already have in the veg tent and it's taking the light at 38k right now so I'll let it roll, I seen last night it final moved a little so it's pass the transplant and the move to the veg tent.....

The one that dropped that is growing slow, I was thinking it had to do with the soil it was in so it got trans planted the other day to a 5 , I'll see how it goes form here.... if it turn out to be a F I'll run it I guess if it's a male it's not worth anything at this point i guess:) time will tell I guess
I think bottom line every strain expresses their own unique way of dudding. the big leaf plants, the ones with the wide blades and short stocks tend to dud different that the more narrow blade leaves plant that tend to elongate. I think your plants are still too young to tell yet if they are true duds or simply runts. You started them from seeds so they must grow out a bit in order to really be certain.

I’ve gotten to the point where I can’t just sense them, I get that feeling and even when they haven’t thrown out horizontal branches yet. I can still tell they are duds cause usually the leaves are a little darker and the stems seem to be pale green. They seem to be happy with a lower ppm of nitrogen. And feeding your regular formula tends to give them more nutes than they need. The leaves also look different than a normal plant. once I spot one after getting that initial weird feeling. I’ll go ahead and find a branch that’s not new or not too old. And cut it out and then bend it. It snaps and then I confirm it’s a dud and pull it out of the veg. Usually the plants that are right next to the dud plant have a tendency to dud as well at a later time but not all the time. It’s a 50/50 chance.

take the plant on the right of this pic. 100% it’s a dud. It‘s screaming at you
7710D7D2-D4FD-476F-9B1A-C733A035B3CF.jpeg

Notice the darker green leaves and pale green stems and the leaf blade serations almost look razor like. Even though it does not have the horizontal branching yet. It’s a dud mom.

There are plenty of examples on the cannabis infirmary threads where you see nutrient deficiencies along with irregular branching patterns on plants with horizontal branches bowing down. I see everyone spinning their wheels on what’s wrong with the plant and to me they are looking at the wrong issue. Bottom line is this if your cannabis plant is shooting out obvious horizontal branching patterns with elongated pale green stems and weird Leaf twists, it’s a mutant or dud. And the causes for that are 2 diseases a viroid or a possible bacteria called phytoplasma. Happening from stressful situations and their immune systems compromised where the pathogen takes over and they start to silence genes to fight back. 1st report Ed incidence in US this year. https://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/full/10.1094/PDIS-01-19-0098-PDN Nothing else. So if your plant is throwing out horizontal branches and you have not trained it to grow that way. Then you have a dud and you can expect deficiencies and all sorts of phantom issues that will keep everyone’s head spinning. Go through all the unresolved issues on the infirmary threads. They all have that dud look and most these cats here are spinning their wheels with secondary obvious problems when the environment and reading are within acceptable cannabis range. Maybe it’s because these dud plants are just more sensitive and that’s why you see all the phantom secondary problems that come with the dud problem.

The plant changes and so do their npk requirements. Your formula that you use for the strain does not work anymore and looking at the ph runoff is another sign. It becomes more acidic and is not stable. Those have been my observations and they are always consistent with duds. This problem is a lot more common than people think.
 
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