Stop The Bro Science Behind Molasses And Other Organic Stuff

  • Thread starter Hpo777
  • Start date
  • Tagged users None
oldskol4evr

oldskol4evr

12,306
438
Organic matter that has been in soil for a while has been altered into a much studied substance, humus. We know for example that humus always has a carbon to nitrogen ratio of from 10:1 to about 12:1. Garden writers call great compost like this, "stable humus," because it is slow to decompose. Its presence in soil steadily feeds a healthy ecology of microorganisms important to plant health, and whose activity accelerates the release of plant nutrients from undecomposed rock particles. Humus is also fertilizer because its gradual decomposition provides mineral nutrients that make plants grow. The most important of these nutrients is nitrate nitrogen, thus soil scientists may call humus decomposition "nitrification."

When organic material with a C/N below 12:1 is mixed into soil its breakdown is very rapid. Because it contains more nitrogen than stable humus does, nitrogen is rapidly released to feed the plants and soil life. Along with nitrogen comes other plant nutrients. This accelerated nitrification continues until the remaining nitrogen balances with the remaining carbon at a ratio of about 12:1. Then the soil returns to equilibrium. The lower the C/N the more rapid the release, and the more violent the reaction in the soil. Most low C/N organic materials, like seed meal or chicken manure, rapidly release nutrients for a month or two before stabilizing. What has been described here is fertilizer.

When organic material with a C/N higher than 12:1 is tilled into soil, soil animals and microorganisms find themselves with an unsurpassed carbohydrate banquet. Just as in a compost heap, within days bacteria and fungi can multiply to match any food supply. But to construct their bodies these microorganisms need the same nutrients that plants need to grow and this takes us back to nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus, calcium, magnesium, etc. There are never enough of these nutrients in high C/N organic matter to match the needs of soil bacteria, especially never enough nitrogen, so soil microorganisms uptake these nutrients from the soil's reserves while they "bloom" and rapidly consume all the new carbon presented to them.

During this period of rapid decomposition the soil is thoroughly robbed of plant nutrients. And nitrification stops. Initially, a great deal of carbon dioxide gas may be given off, as carbon is metabolically "burned." However, CO2 in high concentrations can be toxic to sprouting seeds and consequently, germination failures may occur. There are two usual causes. Either before sowing all the seeds were exposed to temperatures above 110 degree or more likely, a large quantity of high C/N "manure" was tilled into the garden just before sowing. In soil so disturbed transplants may also fail to grow for awhile. If the "manure" contains a large quantity of sawdust the soil will seem very infertile for a month or three.

Sir Albert Howard had a unique and pithy way of expressing this reality. He said that soil was not capable of working two jobs at once. You could not expect it to nitrify humus while it was also being required to digest organic matter. That's one reason he thought composting was such a valuable process. The digestion of organic matter proceeds outside the soil; when finished product, humus, is ready for nitrification, it is tilled in.

Rapid consumption of carbon continues until the C/N of the new material drops to the range of stable humus. Then decay microorganisms die off and the nutrients they hoarded are released back into the soil. How long the soil remains inhospitable to plant growth and seed germination depends on soil temperature, the amount of the material and how high its C/N is, and the amount of nutrients the soil is holding in reserve. The warmer and more fertile the soil was before the addition of high C/N organic matter, the faster it will decompose.

Hope this helps
this explains something i couldnt find words for,ev
Organic matter that has been in soil for a while has been altered into a much studied substance, humus. We know for example that humus always has a carbon to nitrogen ratio of from 10:1 to about 12:1. Garden writers call great compost like this, "stable humus," because it is slow to decompose. Its presence in soil steadily feeds a healthy ecology of microorganisms important to plant health, and whose activity accelerates the release of plant nutrients from undecomposed rock particles. Humus is also fertilizer because its gradual decomposition provides mineral nutrients that make plants grow. The most important of these nutrients is nitrate nitrogen, thus soil scientists may call humus decomposition "nitrification."

When organic material with a C/N below 12:1 is mixed into soil its breakdown is very rapid. Because it contains more nitrogen than stable humus does, nitrogen is rapidly released to feed the plants and soil life. Along with nitrogen comes other plant nutrients. This accelerated nitrification continues until the remaining nitrogen balances with the remaining carbon at a ratio of about 12:1. Then the soil returns to equilibrium. The lower the C/N the more rapid the release, and the more violent the reaction in the soil. Most low C/N organic materials, like seed meal or chicken manure, rapidly release nutrients for a month or two before stabilizing. What has been described here is fertilizer.

When organic material with a C/N higher than 12:1 is tilled into soil, soil animals and microorganisms find themselves with an unsurpassed carbohydrate banquet. Just as in a compost heap, within days bacteria and fungi can multiply to match any food supply. But to construct their bodies these microorganisms need the same nutrients that plants need to grow and this takes us back to nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus, calcium, magnesium, etc. There are never enough of these nutrients in high C/N organic matter to match the needs of soil bacteria, especially never enough nitrogen, so soil microorganisms uptake these nutrients from the soil's reserves while they "bloom" and rapidly consume all the new carbon presented to them.

During this period of rapid decomposition the soil is thoroughly robbed of plant nutrients. And nitrification stops. Initially, a great deal of carbon dioxide gas may be given off, as carbon is metabolically "burned." However, CO2 in high concentrations can be toxic to sprouting seeds and consequently, germination failures may occur. There are two usual causes. Either before sowing all the seeds were exposed to temperatures above 110 degree or more likely, a large quantity of high C/N "manure" was tilled into the garden just before sowing. In soil so disturbed transplants may also fail to grow for awhile. If the "manure" contains a large quantity of sawdust the soil will seem very infertile for a month or three.

Sir Albert Howard had a unique and pithy way of expressing this reality. He said that soil was not capable of working two jobs at once. You could not expect it to nitrify humus while it was also being required to digest organic matter. That's one reason he thought composting was such a valuable process. The digestion of organic matter proceeds outside the soil; when finished product, humus, is ready for nitrification, it is tilled in.

Rapid consumption of carbon continues until the C/N of the new material drops to the range of stable humus. Then decay microorganisms die off and the nutrients they hoarded are released back into the soil. How long the soil remains inhospitable to plant growth and seed germination depends on soil temperature, the amount of the material and how high its C/N is, and the amount of nutrients the soil is holding in reserve. The warmer and more fertile the soil was before the addition of high C/N organic matter, the faster it will decompose.

Hope this helps
this explains something ive known but couldnt find words for,,every time i here or see were they are making compost in 2 weeks,i shrug my shoulders and think how is that possible or safe for that fact,my compost took four months to make,and when it was done smell was like straight up fresh soil,love that smell,id almost bet this same 2 week compost method is what they are using at these garden and bulk sale places,i reached up into a pile of compost last year,that not only burnt my eyes being close,but pile was to hot for the touch,i didnt buy it just for these 2 reasons,could have been the best ever,but when you eyes start to water from the fumes of it,i sure hell wasnt gonna put it on my garden,lmao
 
oldskol4evr

oldskol4evr

12,306
438
I mostly stopped using household scraps because it seemed to invite flying bugs. Spinach leaves abd other thin pieces I use.
i dont use it either,damn racoons bro and these damn dogs,lmao if ever get around to making bokashi i would use the shit up though,,i was just reference my own compost compared to what you buy local,i can get a yrd of compost for 45 bucks,that a lot especially when you just helped a old guy like myself,heft slab blocks they sale also,off one pallet to a forklift,lmao,dude loads my old 83 chevy down,hell with dropping them to the ground,just get a yrd of compost or soil from this cat aint shitting,way i figured it was 5 of my wheel barrow load adds up to a yrd,last time i went in,i got 2,went back for some fill dirt,got2 yrds,you would of thought my old truck was a low rider hahaah,this place has great compost,,the other place i mentioned about comparison hell to the nah
 
oldskol4evr

oldskol4evr

12,306
438
A nice trick I learned to make a compost pile twice as fast utilizing some stolen Korean farming methods. I make kombucha tea. I mix a gallon to 5 gallons of rain water. I made a cheap rain barrel with a brute trash can and some fiberglass screen. Pour that over your compost pile once every few weeks.

It's making black compost fast!
i found that using that left over rice from making LAB and my potato that i use to make compost and potatoe tea with made that pile jump,when i put that curd in that pile shit bro a matter of weeks things got to happening,,i already used it in the bed for winter,got a crap load of clay to break up,smell of fine ass dirt,but was soil hahaahh now its time to rake up the next batch of leaves,wish these bastards just fell at one time,crap at least 7 times a years raking these damn things,that why i put there ass to work in that compost pile lmao
 
oldskol4evr

oldskol4evr

12,306
438
A nice trick I learned to make a compost pile twice as fast utilizing some stolen Korean farming methods. I make kombucha tea. I mix a gallon to 5 gallons of rain water. I made a cheap rain barrel with a brute trash can and some fiberglass screen. Pour that over your compost pile once every few weeks.

It's making black compost fast!
i have never heard of the kombucha tea ,still havent bought that read,i know what and how to make most of them or a few,but need that damn book for feed ratios and shit,i have read great reviews on the book,hell they got a versions now,wish ever one would give soil a home grown try ,a real try ,bet there minds would be difrent hahah probally not though,got set your mind in stone with your heart,lol i love gardening veggies more than weed,feed that soil right and there aint much to it,other then hope to come out were you can sell some of it,i bitch and moan about the work,but always seem to windup there screwing with something hahahahah
 
Farmer P

Farmer P

2,407
263
i have never heard of the kombucha tea ,still havent bought that read,i know what and how to make most of them or a few,but need that damn book for feed ratios and shit,i have read great reviews on the book,hell they got a versions now,wish ever one would give soil a home grown try ,a real try ,bet there minds would be difrent hahah probally not though,got set your mind in stone with your heart,lol i love gardening veggies more than weed,feed that soil right and there aint much to it,other then hope to come out were you can sell some of it,i bitch and moan about the work,but always seem to windup there screwing with something hahahahah

How often do you turn your piles? I got these homemade tumbling composters and I was giving them a spin every day. Ive been thinking maybe it would be better to let it cook a while before turning. Hey the White Blaze is getting down to smokable dryness. Tried a tester and it is some damn good smoke! I pressed a little into rosin and it had a pineapple taste to it. Bomb! My friend loves it too, says it makes him horny lol. I gave him some cuts.
 
oldskol4evr

oldskol4evr

12,306
438
How often do you turn your piles? I got these homemade tumbling composters and I was giving them a spin every day. Ive been thinking maybe it would be better to let it cook a while before turning. Hey the White Blaze is getting down to smokable dryness. Tried a tester and it is some damn good smoke! I pressed a little into rosin and it had a pineapple taste to it. Bomb! My friend loves it too, says it makes him horny lol. I gave him some cuts.
i turn and damp it every week,,glad you like the blaze,shit is speedy to me,im mental though,lmao hell every time i smoke it ,i always say what the hell,1 1/2 hours of speed lmao then numbs my back for me,lmao
 
Ceveres

Ceveres

453
143
I found some things that you guys might like or find useful. Seemed fitting.. Have any of you guys made any of These? This seems up your alley MajorToker
062c251bf9b4ba1817d47e637eea148f
Fermented fruit juice
7422781 orig
3a061aa6e2c26fe61c8779a4b72c26c8
8648449 orig
20130627 102529 pm
1929027 orig
6b011414eac9225d95e3c5100926a14f
 
oldskol4evr

oldskol4evr

12,306
438
Same as kobashi. Lacto bacteria cultures. Its light fermentation. Making vinegar or pickling.
i got ya,its 47 out tonight,and i figured that tomorrow i would pull my sweet potato vines and make FPJ and i was gonna make vinegar from what was left over,so same thing really,i want to get a feed table of suggestions for the FPJ/LAB/OHN those are the main ones i gonna use come spring,no joke on getting some of the oriental herbs though,shit angelica grows wild all over the east coast and there are crooks out there that want a nut for it,,lmao
 
oldskol4evr

oldskol4evr

12,306
438
I found some things that you guys might like or find useful. Seemed fitting.. Have any of you guys made any of These? This seems up your alley MajorTokerView attachment 756178 View attachment 756179 View attachment 756180 View attachment 756181 View attachment 756182 View attachment 756183 View attachment 756184 View attachment 756185
this is all the shit i was talking about,thanks man even got recomended use,thats what i been looking for,,but i still want the book,i cant remember shit and need to have high lighted pages,lmao
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

5,134
313
And....cation build up or sodic conditions...correct? Im not 100% on how soil becomes sodic...could you shed light? Its new to me.:eyepiece:
mostly it relates to a Sodium build up where we have low soluble salts. its a bit of a worry if one grows in clay in particular, since it breaks the bonds and causes something called dispersion. This is where the clays literally break apart as aggregates, anyone knowing clay will know the particles are tiny, and they flow with the water to clog up all air pores and so we get what we call profile collapse. A lack of available channels for falling rain water reduces the overall ability for the soil to recharge levels of Oxygen, as suspended or hanging water transport is also disrupted. plants usually feed from rainwater irrigation, not from ground water sources since these often contain low levels of Oxygen. As the profile collapses, capillary action draws ground water up, where its mineral salt rich content becomes subject to evaporation, this intensifies the salt build up in the soil overall and compounds the matter. Eventually all hydraulic capacity will fail and we see this as sodic soils often crack when dry. We have all seen this i suspect. Soils that swell when wet, but dry like cracked skin.
Sodic soils can be related to water management way outside of your spaces. EG where we have built dams we have raised local water tables and caused the salting of the land. this is a major concern, rising water tables are the end of decent farming, just ask the people of Afghanistan :-) If you want to grow heroin, I recommend sodic soils :-)
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

5,134
313
Some data on Sodic soils from the good poeople at Smart
SODIC SOILS AND THEIR MANAGEMENT
Sodic soils contain a large amount of exchangeable sodium and low levels of soluble salts.

Excess exchangeable sodium has an adverse effect on plant growth, soil structure and results in reduction in crop yields.
In sodic soils, clay particles tend to move far apart from each other in a process called dispersion.
The forces that hold clay particles together are disrupted by the large sodium ions.
The soil aggregates break down, and the dispersed clay particles move throughout the soil and clog its pores.
As a result, water infiltration through the soil, as well as its hydraulic conductivity, is reduced (the hydraulic conductivity is a measure of the soil's ability to transmit water). Therefore, soil might become waterlogged upon wetting.

Sodium affected soils tend to swell when wet and to harden and crack when dry.
When dry, sodic soil typically develops a hard, dry crust on its surface.
The damage to soil structure reduces the oxygen availability in the root zone, restricting plant growth. The hard crust restricts root growth and seed emergence.
In addition, sodic soils are also subject to erosion, which results in soil and nutrient loss. The run-off, containing the nutrients and pesticides which are adsorbed on the clay particles, might reach drinking water sources and contaminate them.

THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN SALINITY AND SODICITY
Salinity and sodium have the opposite effect on soil structure. While sodium enhances soil dispersion, salinity causes soil particles to bind together (to aggregate). The aggregation of soil particles improves the physical properties of the soil. Soil becomes more permeable, aeration is better and root growth improves. Although salts prevent the destructive effects of sodium on soil structure, excessive salinity is nevertheless detrimental to plant growth.



Soils-classification.jpg




INFLUENCE OF pH ON SODIC SOILS
At high soil pH (>8), carbonates become the dominant form of alkalinity. As the soil dries, calcium and magnesium precipitate out of the soil solution and adsorbed calcium and magnesium leave the clay particles to maintain equilibrium. Sodium then becomes more dominant in the solid phase of the soil. The conclusion is that the effects of sodium on soil structure are more significant at high soil pH values.



Exchangeable Sodium Percentage (ESP) and SAR (Sodium Adsorption Ratio)
The Exchangeable Sodium Percentage is defined as the amount of sodium adsorbed to soil particles, expressed in percent of Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC):

ESP= Exchangeable Na (meq/100 g soil)/CEC(meq/100 g soil).

Technically speaking, soils that have a threshold value or exchangeable sodium percentage (ESP) of over 15 are categorized as sodic soils.

Since measuring ESP is not always feasible, many laboratories use the SAR as an index for soil salinity. SAR is calculated as follows: Na/((Ca+Mg)/2 )^2.

MANAGEMENT OF SODIC SOILS
Options for correcting Sodic soils-related problems can range from changing the type of crops to be grown to more tolerant species, to utilizing soil amendments.

Sodic soils can be improved or reclaimed by replacing the exchangeable sodium with calcium ions. The common approach is to incorporate effective soil amendments that directly or indirectly facilitate the replacement of the soil's exchangeable sodium.
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

5,134
313
Some data on rising water tables from S. Australia
http://www.clw.csiro.au/publications/divisionofsoils/techmemos/s-tm-16-1991.pdf

Some data on the impacts of salts on plants, those of you smugly sitting in calcium rich soil might like this one :-)
https://www.livescience.com/45512-plants-respond-to-salt-just-like-humans-respond-to-pain.html

another industry with a lot to answer for
http://www.nhregister.com/business/...arth-Drilling-boom-brings-rising-11346944.php

it was rumored the Romans spread salt on the land of its enemies
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

5,134
313
I mostly stopped using household scraps because it seemed to invite flying bugs. Spinach leaves abd other thin pieces I use.
I find bokashi is the best way to pre treat food waste ahead of more general composting and it does speed things up by a factor of about 4.
Flies are attracted to volatizing AN and or methane, ethylene I find. and this is typical of decomposing food types. Here people put bottles of urine or Ammonia in the fruit trees, tied to the branches on the side where the rising sun hits the canopy. Citrus flies and others go for the stronger smelling bottle, once in, they cant exit so get trapped. Perhaps you might try something similar?
I think its important to note, in the real world, it is estimated that for every 1 plant pest, there are up to 74 plant linked and non related predators :-)
 
Farmer P

Farmer P

2,407
263
A few years back I planted a lemon, lime, grapefruit, and two navel orange trees in my back yard. After the first year they weren't doing too well and I saw some really crinkly leaves kind of swirly on one of the orange trees. I thought I over fertilized it at first but after doing some research on a website they showed the same leaves and said it could be bugs. I went and looked close and found I was infested with Asian citrus psyllids. After that I thought maybe my compost pile had something to do with it so I stopped putting fruit in it and the problem hasn't been nearly as bad. I don't know if it was coincidence but I don't want to chance it. I found a map online that shows the infested areas and I'm in one so I have to be careful. Luckily they haven't been finding any greening in my area yet.
 
Ceveres

Ceveres

453
143
this is all the shit i was talking about,thanks man even got recomended use,thats what i been looking for,,but i still want the book,i cant remember shit and need to have high lighted pages,lmao
Hell yea no problem man, glad my web surfing could come in handy hehe
 
Last edited:
Ceveres

Ceveres

453
143
it did but i still wont the book,im not to good with this button box,lmao
Then you can scan all the good bits and share them with the rest of us :p

Have you ever heard of this Activated EM•1 microbe?
This is copy and pasted from this website - I've never used their microbial product, but I thought it was pretty awesome that they promote brewing more on the cheap and even give you instructions on how to do it!

"Get The Biggest Bang For Your Buck: Make Your Own Activated EM•1® For Less Than $4 Per Gallon!
EM•1® microbial products can be grown one time for economical purposes. This "growing" or "brewing" process is calledActivation (it used to be called "extension"). It does not mean the microbes in EM•1® are not active; they are. It is just a term EMRO developed years ago. Activation involves taking one part EM•1®, 1 part molasses, and 20 parts water. Numbers can be rounded up or down a bit according to the size of the container and are not crucial to the outcome of the final product."
I wonder if this would work with other microbial products or any of the Korean Natural farming concoctions?
 
oldskol4evr

oldskol4evr

12,306
438
Then you can scan all the good bits and share them with the rest of us :p

Have you ever heard of this Activated EM•1 microbe?
This is copy and pasted from this website - I've never used their microbial product, but I thought it was pretty awesome that they promote brewing more on the cheap and even give you instructions on how to do it!

"Get The Biggest Bang For Your Buck: Make Your Own Activated EM•1® For Less Than $4 Per Gallon!
EM•1® microbial products can be grown one time for economical purposes. This "growing" or "brewing" process is calledActivation (it used to be called "extension"). It does not mean the microbes in EM•1® are not active; they are. It is just a term EMRO developed years ago. Activation involves taking one part EM•1®, 1 part molasses, and 20 parts water. Numbers can be rounded up or down a bit according to the size of the container and are not crucial to the outcome of the final product."
I wonder if this would work with other microbial products or any of the Korean Natural farming concoctions?
yes it will,you can make the bokashi i spoke of with it,arizona schools are using this with all the lunch meals every day,they have kids scraping trays and then the waste goes into bokashi buckets,as they scrap and get about 3inches deep they add a layer of bokashi and continue on,,have a special place set aside and the kids take turns,taking buckets to and from and also draining the buckets,at a certain time,they then take the bokashi waste to a 4ft wide by 3ft deep trench they have dug,put the bokashi waste in cover with a little soil and continue own,,they have a amuculant garden that they pick from and goes right back into the school supply and even the community effort of food banks,,great program,bringing the way of life of how it really is and get credits for learning something that might save there own lives one day,,NOW THATS A PROGRAM WERE MY TAX PAYING MONEY SHOULD GO,i would love to see this first hand,future farmers my friends future farmers learning that dirt is dirt and soil is gold
 
Ceveres

Ceveres

453
143
I'm interested in Bokashi. I compost all the food that I can, but I hear Bokashi can handle all the things compost can't like meat and dairy, is that correct? I also want to turn my outdoor compost pile into an indoor worm bin, but I don't want it to smell. So I would put it thru the Bokashi bin first and then send that thru the worm bin right? As of right now I don't get enough castings produced since I don't have many inputs for my pile. I want to find some cheap grain or whatever works best/fastest for good castings.
 
Top Bottom