The high cost of Seeds !!!!!!!!!!???????????

[Frankster]

If your looking in selfed seeds you will never find it.

I don't fully agree with that trustfall; (although I agree in part) I think it can be done to "some" cultivars; especially more Indica leaning ones; although you'll have to sort though the existing phenotypes to obtain the specific pheno one is after.

 

[Frankster]

Hey-just jumping in here. I, too, just had an issue with a “feminized” seed that was a true male. From a grower I have traded with for years, he said this is the first time this has ever happened to his knowledge. It happened at an unfortunate time, as we were just a few days on 12/12 when my father passed. Our good friends, bless their hearts, babysat our grow for two weeks while we were gone. And they did excellent except they did not notice/realize that one plant “stage center” was a male intruding on our slumber party. Our shock and horror when we returned! Needless to say the run is ruined but we are letting the seeds mature.
As an aside, is it only me (40 years inside grower) that notices reduced vigor on the feminized strains? I’ve been breaking both M/F and feminized strains and I’m just wondering if the feminization of everything is also hurting our stocks….

I think making sure you got 100% feminization is difficult at best. One needs to verify it; and still a few beans in there could come from some stray area's; or even past grow. There's always one in the woodpile is what I'm saying. At least sometimes; and your already fully committed.

A common error is this; bringing in a bunch of prospective; and lining them up with feminization spray a week before the flip; and having one out of the bunch end up male... You don't find it's what it is until week 1->2 after the flip. then your always stuck with the possibility a few pollens escaped; ect... But the result might be <1%; if you caught it in time; however if your that 1% guy than your not a happy camper. That's why I'm always; always looking for both male and female in my pollens.... ie. hairs and balls...

All sorts of things can and do happen; just because someone's a great breeder doesn't mean mistakes don't happen. Don't kid yourself.
Even the best breeders are still human. and when you pay $1500 per seed; I suspect your SOL

 

[Frankster]

Sensi is good. I just question any that never show any purple and I'm not buying that it's because the grow environment wasn't cold enough. The last few grows friends have done and that I could actually see none had purple. I just think too many are selling strains diluted or created that aren't the real deal. It's just Durban X Purple Urkle. Don't know about PU anymore either. Not saying all are counterfeits or weak copies. Just wondering.

Went to check out my buddy's latest GDP attempt and saw his "Gorilla Glue" that sure looked nothing like GG.

Purple is far more temperature dependent than about anything else. Maybe you weren't letting the plants get as cool as you should.

For example: Purple Punch; Same exact mother; same exact cloned cut; grown in different temps.

 

[Pushrod Monkey]

Purple is far more temperature dependent than about anything else. Maybe you weren't letting the plants get as cool as you should.

We live in Interior Alaska. It's a problem trying to keep a grow at normal temperature. We have plenty purple up including this Jack's Poison.

 

[Frankster]

We live in Interior Alaska. It's a problem trying to keep a grow at normal temperature. We have plenty purple up including this Jack's Poison.

Certainly some strains are far more prone to purpling than others. The temp to obtain those effects vary; some do it in 60's; some don't show until high 50's even. It's random, timing is also a big part of it.

 

[Pike]

I don't fully agree with that trustfall; (although I agree in part) I think it can be done to "some" cultivars; especially more Indica leaning ones; although you'll have to sort though the existing phenotypes to obtain the specific pheno one is after.

S1 will never produce the original plant, ever…..every single MJ plant is a individual, you can find plants close, you can find better, never the original.

 

[Pike]

And since we’re on S1s, IMO they are garbage, weak, inbred, mutated junk. S1 is nothing but a tool to take a look at how a cultivar may segregate.
I wouldn’t spend a wooden nickel on um, just my opinion

 

[Neuro]

S1 will never produce the original plant, ever…..every single MJ plant is a individual, you can find better,

 

[Frankster]

S1 will never produce the original plant, ever…..every single MJ plant is a individual, you can find plants close, you can find better, never the original.

And since we’re on S1s, IMO they are garbage, weak, inbred, mutated junk. S1 is nothing but a tool to take a look at how a cultivar may segregate.
I wouldn’t spend a wooden nickel on um, just my opinion

simulated monozygotic twins; with a sex change operation. Identical twins form from the same egg and get the same genetic material from their parents — but that doesn't mean they're genetically identical by the time they're born.

Every so called "elite" clone started out as an s1; somewhere. Furthermore if you breed something to itself; you've replicated it. There very well might be other phenotypes in there; but the original is in there somewhere; also. If it's truly bred to itself. female to pollinized female. Virtually identical to a clone.

Even identical twins are going to change over time due to environmental factors ie. senescence; same with the original.

True-breeding organisms are genetically identical and have identical alleles for specified traits. The alleles for these type of organisms are homozygous. True-breeding plants and organisms may express phenotypes that are either homozygous dominant or homozygous recessive. With complete dominance inheritance, dominant phenotypes are expressed and recessive phenotypes are masked in heterozygous individuals.

Self-pollination in F1 generation plants (Rr X Rr) results in offspring (F2 generation) with a 3-to-1 ratio. Half of these plants would be heterozygous. one quarter of them would be homozygous dominant. and one quarter would be homozygous recessive.

Homozygous recessive; An organism with one dominant allele and one recessive allele is said to have a heterozygous genotype. (rr)
Homozygous dominant is a genotype that consists of two dominant alleles for a gene. (RR)
Half of these plants would be heterozygous (Rr),

ie. breeding the samething >>> to the same thing... aka two identical clones...

 

[hawkman]

for the price of seeds one must consider that a breeder needs to get to F-4's for a stable strain - which can take a few years - but still can't understand $500.00 a pack seeds Now if you breed autos' one can get 4 grows a year meaning one can get a stable strain in 1 year (f-4's)

 

[Trustfall]

I don't fully agree with that trustfall; (although I agree in part) I think it can be done to "some" cultivars; especially more Indica leaning ones; although you'll have to sort though the existing phenotypes to obtain the specific pheno one is after.

It’s a tough one Frank. I just see so many frauds out now because of s1’s. I find them bigger, more shine but less effective in high and less complexity in flavor. And for some reason people have a problem calling them hat they are. People get s1’s and just call it as the cut it came from leading to mass confusion.
My other problem is what a old member here that went by the name lyno told me. It’s possible to grow man boobs from ingesting fems on the daily.

 

[Frankster]

It’s a tough one Frank. I just see so many frauds out now because of s1’s. I find them bigger, more shine but less effective in high and less complexity in flavor. And for some reason people have a problem calling them hat they are. People get s1’s and just call it as the cut it came from leading to mass confusion.
My other problem is what a old member here that went by the name lyno told me. It’s possible to grow man boobs from ingesting fems on the daily.

What you say is all true. (don't know about the man boobs part though)

I'm not disputing any of that. But given proper starting materials great things are truly possible with a little patience; sound technique and following solid protocols.

Genetic drift is a real thing; but it's happening always, even in the original plant. Time can't be held hostage; change is inevitable. ect... I'm also not suggesting it can be done indefinably either; gen>gen>gen>ect... at some point male genetics needs to be re-infused from somewhere. However true isolate cut's aren't male; thus the delemma.

I agree there's lot of confusion about breeding in general; and what s1 or f3>f4 actually means. A cut vs cross; ect.

A single generation isn't terribly significant IMO; especially if both are elite cuts taken from a flawless; properly cared for mother.... If it's done though breeding two females; or a cut from an original; drift is drift. At least in theory. Locating the "proper flawless cut" becomes the critical "link"

Personally, I think there's lot of people breeding "seeds" blindly; without vetting the phenotypes. That's the #1 rookie error IMO; or at minimum in the top three. Or breeding an unknown male, onto a vetted female, and hoping it good. That can pump out some great seeds still; (then isolate and mother it) but the overall consistency is going to be far lower IMO. You might end up with a "special" different; but it's still different. Then you need to spend even more time getting it to an f3>f4 state... (of Mrs Different) Lots of time and what... exactly... What if your already starting with (2) identical synthetic (monozygotic) f4's???

Females > females are far, far more predictable. But that's just my opinion; everyone is entitled to one.

 

[Jbl613]

My friend paid 5000$ for his astro pink mother plant! Now I would never pay that much personally but if you think about the time it takes to grow out a plant and figure out if it has good characteristics or not then in the commercial world it makes sense but if your not commercial then you mite have a better chance at popping seeds and finding a keeper for cheaper then 5000$ but then again you mite also not find what your looking for and spend more!

 

[FuriousStyles]

Would humbly like to add that reversing a plant is the quickest way to lock down specific traits. It is a practice that has been used for a lot of years in the vegetable industry to get those fine goodies we get out of our gardens.

While it has a place in cannabis, I consider it a tool not a finished product. A gene pool to find what you are looking for to outcross to something else as a F1 or to lock down a specific trait within that pool to to incross to (assuming you selfed the plant from reg seeds and have a similar male pollen donor)

When considered as a tool the value has no ceiling. Its like a crayon box full of green crayons only. Many different shades of green in that box to choose from to color your picture.

 

[Frankster]

Bottom line is a cut is always going to be a cut; and a seed is always going to be a "replication" of an isolate cut. It's either one thing; or the other.

 

[Frankster]

@Trustfall TBH, I don't think it can even be done; except on some select cultivars. Seems like feminization is a somewhat selective thing; some cultivars accept it; others don't; it's hit and miss.

I think the feasibility of it is one aspect among many other traits that set true breeding specimens apart.

 

[Pike]

The little square there shows you won’t get the same plant, selfing the cut, brings out different combinations bro, just won’t happen no matter what. I don’t see anything you posted that says otherwise, other then what you think.

homozygous does not mean identical, it’s a population of stable like plants, each a individual.

“But given proper starting materials great things are truly possible with a little patience; sound technique and following solid protocols.”

line me out bro, what solid protocols, tech, and starting materials, are going to change how a plant combines. Show me some data since the beginning of man we’re two MJ plants are genetically identical.

I been outta touch for sometime, maybe somethin new I haven’t seen

 

[Pike]

Bottom line is a cut is always going to be a cut; and a seed is always going to be a "replication" of an isolate cut. It's either one thing; or the other.

??? Not a replication, a relative is more like it.

appreciate the banter, good to talk seed,

 

[Trustfall]

What you say is all true. (don't know about the man boobs part though)

I'm not disputing any of that. But given proper starting materials great things are truly possible with a little patience; sound technique and following solid protocols.

Genetic drift is a real thing; but it's happening always, even in the original plant. Time can't be held hostage; change is inevitable. ect... I'm also not suggesting it can be done indefinably either; gen>gen>gen>ect... at some point male genetics needs to be re-infused from somewhere. However true isolate cut's aren't male; thus the delemma.

I agree there's lot of confusion about breeding in general; and what s1 or f3>f4 actually means. A cut vs cross; ect.

A single generation isn't terribly significant IMO; especially if both are elite cuts taken from a flawless; properly cared for mother.... If it's done though breeding two females; or a cut from an original; drift is drift. At least in theory. Locating the "proper flawless cut" becomes the critical "link"

Personally, I think there's lot of people breeding "seeds" blindly; without vetting the phenotypes. That's the #1 rookie error IMO; or at minimum in the top three. Or breeding an unknown male, onto a vetted female, and hoping it good. That can pump out some great seeds still; (then isolate and mother it) but the overall consistency is going to be far lower IMO. You might end up with a "special" different; but it's still different. Then you need to spend even more time getting it to an f3>f4 state... (of Mrs Different) Lots of time and what... exactly... What if your already starting with (2) identical synthetic (monozygotic) f4's???

Females > females are far, far more predictable. But that's just my opinion; everyone is entitled to one.

Can Smoking Weed Give You Man Boobs? - Grossman Capraro

As a man, having gynecomastia, or excess breast tissue can be embarrassing. Gynecomastia is not caused by excess fat developing on a man's breasts.

grossmancapraroplasticsurgery.com

They are blaming rec weed but what else has changed since regulation? That’s right an increase in fems. Everybody and their mother is a fem breeder now especially runtz fem breeders..fems are less work but at what cost?

 

[Frankster]

??? Not a replication, a relative is more like it.

appreciate the banter, good to talk seed,

I think descendant would be the best overall term.