Using Oxygen Generator to increase DO.

[Lost]

I call this the lava tub. I figure you could put lava (from walmart for grills), over the airstones like a mountain to just above the surface. The roots on the way down will colonize the nooks and crannys of the lava while water bubbles up around it supercharging it!!!

lol

 

[pacog]

Lost... I have a Few Ideas Similar to that one. HP/LP aero, with DWC. Or a Possible Hp/LP aero Flood and Drain with DWC. Also looking at FOG/DRIP/DWC/flood( since I have an AeroMist Lying around). Now just need to decide which method to go with. Would be cool to try them all to what is most productive.

 

[UCMENOW]

Do you guys think one draw back to venturi oxy infusion would be that the air drawn into the pump is directly from the room (CO2) rich. It would obviously still be beneficial but it might be necessary to run the venturi snorkel to outside the room.

That's where I could envision the pump chamber I described previously having one airlinr from the pump feeding directly into the venturi snorkel.....kind of like what I think Lost was describing.

Chilled air is where it's at, or at very least is where it's going.....Daniel (CC) mentioned they are beginning to collaborate w/ Hydro Innovations on some stylee new air chilling concepts, should be interesting.

 

[UCMENOW]

Fat got 86'd

BTW....did Fat get banned?

O...never mind, he did...no surprise but I think we'll be missing some thought provocation.

 

[pacog]

UCME... Most people keep their Rez outside of the room.

But if the Rez was in the same room and there was CO2 you would want to your Air source from the Venturi to be Out of the Room for sure.

Will be interesting to see what people come up with as far as Air Chillers.

 

[Jalisco Kid]

They make silencers for regens. FM is right about the airstones/airlines. Which is why I use other ways to deliver the air at the root zone in the gm's and my rcdwc. Because you guys see growth rates in rcdwc,you think they are all that, they can be improved. For most who have been driving yugos and get 3 oz a plant and now are getting more think these systems are all that. Now you are in your muscle cars(dd and uc),but it is possible to go fast and have some comfort and leeway in growing.
If you are having root issues you could add a venturi at the tank as the water enters the tank. Do not pull in co2 though.
Adding chilled air would help and you can get this by pulling in chilled air from your ac. But you would gain much more by placing the air where it is best used.
Or get a better system.
JK

 

[Lost]

J/K- As I submitted to Fatman, then if this were true, then a UC system would grow as good if not better without the airstones in each res? I highly doubt that. Im always looking for ways to improve systems j/k, that much should be obvious to you :)

There is more to the bubbles that maintaining the waters DO. Fatman did not seem to understand that when the bubbles actually come into contact with the roots, the DO reading goes from roughly 12, to whatever the PPM of oxygen is in the air, (like 20,000 or something). Not to mention the continous turbulance created by the bubbles.

If you really believe that the bubbles are useless, I would love to see a test setup. A res without airstones and a res with. :)

 

[Lost]

I also want to note that for NFT systems where there are huge surface area's per gallon, then simply having swift running water might provide everything you need (DO) on a small scale but I do not see using NFT being able to produce pounds per plant. (edit: not considering your GM tanks NFT right? Thats more of an aero, type dwcish thing. I guess technically tho the spraying creates a nutrient film, but.. but..)

If the bubbles are only needed in the main res, then why does every DWC setup that I can think of involve bubbles in the mini res?

One other thing, we can't run reses at high temps so thats kind of a moot point. Do you want to run your res at 80 degrees? Have fun with your slime buckets, heheheh :)

 

[mrdizzle]

JK you yourself state you've killed more plants in your own system then you care to mention. aero seems like one of the least "safe" ways to grow as I could possibly think of

I wish someone would talk about the oxygen generator not the effectivness of airstones. the reason DD system and the UC do well VS a 5gal stand along DWC is due to the constant flow of nutes. Not to mention some people do very well in 5gal buckets with a simple $10 air pump.

the airstones are to mix the water in the tanks creating a roiling boil in the tubs and the pass bubbles over the roots, which does increase the DO at the rootzone, and if you google, there is a nice article in maxyeild that talks indepth about it

 

[Lost]

Dizzle, I dont see how one of those is going to help unless its under the rootmass. I could be wrong but it seems from the studies sited previously that oxygen percipatates out of solution pretty quick when it is higher than it typically should be given a set temp. If you had one under the root mass it MIGHT stay in long enuff to be absorbed by the root mass.. Or not.. Also the bubble effect would produce a mush higher do effect at least in my theory, than raising the nutes do level. Or not, im no scientist, hahah.

 

[Jalisco Kid]

I never said airstones were bad and I do not think FM was really stating that. It is the size of the bubbles and/or the placement.
I have killed many plants but not really in my system,and never from a system failure. I say take 100 cuts,pick 64 to transplant. Out of that I keep 30 to complete the veg,22 for my room and 8 as backups for about 2 weeks. All those extra clones used to go to my torture chamber for my experiments. Not many made it out alive.
Your systems do not work because of nutes constantly are recirculating,if that was the case nft would work well. I stated earlier I doubted if Krusty or dd knows why they work. I doubt if krusty ever questioned why. But I bet you 2 guys will figure it out someday. It is right in your face.
I have many designs and options built into my tanks. Some are nft like the way Janus uses them,some are nft/shallow dwc combos. I run a drip from the top until my roots pop then they get turned off and just aero from there on out with no water held in reserve. If you have the money then aero is not a risky system to run. The benefits would pay for all the bells and whistles for most rather then run a dwc or rcdwc. As I said before the biggest plant I have seen was from a dtw chow mix in about a 20 gal container hand feed. Money does not create elbows it helps create freedom and some insurance.
I have tried to get people who can not afford my tanks to buy used ice chests and copy my designs. Better then those bins from the box stores.
JK

 

[pacog]

I never said airstones were bad and I do not think FM was really stating that. It is the size of the bubbles and/or the placement.
I have killed many plants but not really in my system,and never from a system failure. I say take 100 cuts,pick 64 to transplant. Out of that I keep 30 to complete the veg,22 for my room and 8 as backups for about 2 weeks. All those extra clones used to go to my torture chamber for my experiments. Not many made it out alive.
Your systems do not work because of nutes constantly are recirculating,if that was the case nft would work well. I stated earlier I doubted if Krusty or dd knows why they work. I doubt if krusty ever questioned why. But I bet you 2 guys will figure it out someday. It is right in your face.
I have many designs and options built into my tanks. Some are nft like the way Janus uses them,some are nft/shallow dwc combos. I run a drip from the top until my roots pop then they get turned off and just aero from there on out with no water held in reserve. If you have the money then aero is not a risky system to run. The benefits would pay for all the bells and whistles for most rather then run a dwc or rcdwc. As I said before the biggest plant I have seen was from a dtw chow mix in about a 20 gal container hand feed. Money does not create elbows it helps create freedom and some insurance.
I have tried to get people who can not afford my tanks to buy used ice chests and copy my designs. Better then those bins from the box stores.
JK

JK... I know you have posted a link to your work before would you mind posting it again. The only one I can find seems to be a E-mail address???

I can't afford your work right now but hopefully soon.

To offer your Design's for other to use is Awesome!!!

 

[Jalisco Kid]

I call this the lava tub. I figure you could put lava (from walmart for grills), over the airstones like a mountain to just above the surface. The roots on the way down will colonize the nooks and crannys of the lava while water bubbles up around it supercharging it!!!

lol

I think that if you have the proper circulation it there and your roots get anchored in the lava it will cause them to rip. I thought about using something like that with my misters though. I thought it would keep them off the bottom and offer the plants different levels of moisture. JK
Lava from a landscape supply is cheaper and you can handpick your rocks.

 

[kuz]

There is more to the bubbles that maintaining the waters DO. Fatman did not seem to understand that when the bubbles actually come into contact with the roots, the DO reading goes from roughly 12, to whatever the PPM of oxygen is in the air, (like 20,000 or something). Not to mention the continous turbulance created by the bubbles.

He argued the opposite. The air bubble adds no oxygen to the plant root. It adds DO to the water by breaking the surface tension of the water allowing atmospheric pressure to push more oxygen into the water.

Cool temps are a bandaid for lack of turbulence, because its not hard to get the relatively small amounts of DO (that the plant needs) into the water, the hard part is getting it to all of the roots. So even if you saturate the water with all the DO it will hold it doesnt help if most of it is flowing around the roots and not contacting them all well.

You could run the nute solution at 80' if you had good enough turbulence around the roots.

Thats what I understood from it, anyway. It makes some sense, if a system running at sea level had just enough DO in the water you would think the same system would fail at altitude. I dont see people in Denver having to add airstones or anything.

Anybody remember a pic someone put up of the roots growing in a circle around the bubbles of an airstone instead of growing into a ball? I guess that might have been too much turbulence or maybe it was a good thing?

 

[Lost]

Kuz - The Temp issue is something I had an issue with. A dwc setup at 80 degrees like I mentioned will end up a slime bucket. Talking about an 80 degree res is meaningless because your going to end up with bacteria explosions.

Just to note most of my airstones become totally encased in roots. Is this not the same for everyone?

 

[Lost]

What about flow rates to increase the availibility of DO.

That brings me to another tangent but it does have something to do with do..

Ok follow me here.. If a root mass recieves a flow rate over its mass of 20 gallons an hour, would not a flow rate of 40 gallons per hour increase the amount of DO available?

The UC 13 gallon setup uses 3 inch flow pipe. What if flow rate id say doubled from what they reccomend? The reason I ask is my UC 13 gallon came with 500 gph pump for 6 buckets. Well, im going to be running a chiller and want to run it inline of the feed (pump>Chiller>ControlBucket). If I rana 1100 or 1200 would this benefit or am I going to unbalance the system? I figure the chiller will take out 3-400 gph so only adding 2-300 gph...

 

[Lost]

J/k - So you don't hate the lava bucket? Awesome. I'll work on it more. Do you think a 6 or 8 inch airstone or such would be good? Im thinking the more area of the lava that can have bubbles going thru it the better.?

 

[UCMENOW]

Grow your flow bro :)

Yo Lost.....if you're adding head distance to your return to the chiller, upping the flow rate of your return pump is right on......most pumps have a chart expressing the loss of gph vs. head distance to be pumped.

With this said, this is one of the reasons pump sizing for MPB's circulatory pump is fairly high, given they are pushing solution for longer distances to each module....this centralized pressurized delivery will naturally drop the pumps flow rate when pushing the water laterally.

 

[Jalisco Kid]

The only thing I really hate are quitters and bullies.
There are airlines that you can put in your bucket that goes where you want and are self-cleaning.JK

J/k - So you don't hate the lava bucket? Awesome. I'll work on it more. Do you think a 6 or 8 inch airstone or such would be good? Im thinking the more area of the lava that can have bubbles going thru it the better.?

 

[Crysmatic]

lost - i believe you and fatman were arguing different things. you argued 'how' and he argued 'why', and didn't explain the concept well. i think i can explain it.

DO is related to water temperature. nothing anyone can do will add more dissolved oxygen to water that is SATURATED with oxygen i.e. water that contains the MAXIMUM amount of dissolved oxygen. plants take in gaseous oxygen through the stomata on their leaves, and DO in water through their roots.

in fluid dynamics, there is something called the 'boundary layer'. it's layer of stagnant water stuck to the roots where there is no motion. DO has to be right next to the root, and in higher concentration than inside the root to drive osmosis. once the roots absorb DO from this boundary layer, osmosis stops. bubbling air through roots breaks up the boundary layer and introduces fresh water with DO in the boundary layer. the same applies to nutrients. maybe roots don't even absorb DO. maybe it's just good for keeping anaerobic bacteria from taking purchase on roots? hth

you know bubbles work. why worry what others say? enough to keep roots healthy, but not so much to rip them apart. as far as flow rate in your mpb to maintain DO, you'd have to measure DO in and out of the bucket. my guess is that low DO is a boundary layer issue, and that the bulk fluid still contains high DO.