Gypsum Anyone?

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Ecompost

Ecompost

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Not sure where on the planet you are, but oil prices have fallen greatly as more sources have been found and efficiencies and alternatives have been installed. Hydrogen and alternative energies are right around the corner!

Your cup half empty or half full?
thats to do with the dollar and bank price fixing to limit the impacts of renewables, its all interconnected, i wish you would all stop seeing thins as i add one element and its all change
 
Homesteader

Homesteader

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Scientist estimate that a population in 2100 on the African continent alone could exceed 10 billion. We are not going to achieve survival as a species without taking a drastically new approach to farming . I for one, am all in on farming and it helps me find peace. I think too many farmers are servants to the debts they owe( as @Ecompost said about toys except they are just leased). I am trying to buy a spent farm on little money and revive it, and I will try to do the same thing again for all my children once that one is successful.
This book that @Slownickel put out about limestone is much more interesting than it might sound. His idea that 200 bushel corn(in 65) was no less of a miracle than Jesus's makes sense to me, say nothing of 400 bushel..
 
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Ecompost

Ecompost

5,134
313
Scientist estimate that a population in 2100 on the African continent alone could exceed 10 billion. We are not going to achieve survival as a species without taking a drastically new approach to farming . I for one, am all in on farming and it helps me find peace. I think too many farmers are servants to the debts they owe( as @Ecompost said about toys except they are just leased). I am trying to buying a spent farm on little money and revive it, and I will try to do the same again for my children once that one is successful.
This book that @Slownickel put out about limestone is much more interesting than it might sound. His idea that 200 bushel corn(in 65) was no less of a miracle than Jesus's makes sense to me.
i want you to realize this goal too, but in the most effective way and in a sustainable manner, so it might be under your target is better financially, depending on the cost to get you there right, ala Gabe.
I agree, i can tonne some considered ferts on to land and get a harvest, but its not sustainable. just as I am today subjected to the whims of OPEC when i start a tractor up, I will tomorrow be subject to a form of Moroccan control OPEC for Phosphates in the future. We will go through reserves faster now, more people more fiber more stuff more P more mining more more more until what?
Just because we can get oil from shaking the ground apart with liquids, should we?
If we spent 300 billion dollars a year on global food poverty, instead of $600 billion on the war machine......
my future is based on a life where i can try to limit the restricting nature of OPEC and other such barrier based super structures. Cost in, Cost out.

in the essence of fairness present these links, but these do not counter for the increased number of humans, nor that we might be saved by technology currently dependent on mined P also

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/10009

[URL]http://www.thecropsite.com/articles/1621/world-reserves-of-phosphate-rock-dynamic-unfolding-story/
[/URL]
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

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As I am finding in this book about Limestone. We may just be listening to the loudest individuals on how to grow. Nutrients without addressing calcium only serves the nutrient corps.
I agree. Ca is a critical functioning element of human, plant, soil and fungal health. We are more like fungus than we care to admit. I see no issues with Calcium btw, I am not suggesting its presence is anything other than critical. But I live on Limestone, the bed rock beneath my feet is largely limestone, adding more seems unreal in light of the total mass of it right under my feet that with the help of active biology and a great soil profile, is being cycled in to my system for my plants.
I will say, i dont grow like most people. I am more like an adapted homestead and in no way am i a commercial feedstock grower or other with acres of cereals growing right up to the borders of my land. Its not like we dont have such fields but anyway....
 
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Ecompost

Ecompost

5,134
313
What do you do with your peppers? They a big hit in town? Lot of pepper junkies in Estonia? Salsa? Or you sell to other parts of Europe?:) Beautiful. The tomatoes look very happy.
Most of them go to eastern and Indian restaurants mate. Some we use in breeding projects, some we keep for insecticide sprays but mostly for fun :-)
The tomatoes were lucky this year, everyone else got rust, there was a huge presence of pseudomonas sy and a fair whack of annoying pests to go with the extremely variable weather. White fly was a huge issue this year also. Surrounding us are very many non Organic farms, no matter what we do, we end up with some transfer from the locality. I big storm and all manner of shit gets blown in. Hence we set up the tunnels partly as a barrier of sorts
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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One of the things I see when re mediating land is a layer of salt, typically caused by an over application of lime. Lime is not an answer to soil pH climb. it is a sticking plaster at best to a problem that will carry on happening because lime isnt an answer, nor is Sulfur imo, this is why you must add it over and over and over and over. As water washes this down, salts build up in to a layer, typically this is a no go zone for plant root systems.

This has been my question, do we really want to continually apply a lime that's CaCO3 to soils, knowing it can build up to what might be called toxic levels? @Bulldog420 ?
I remember all those genius folk all said that we would run out of oil too.... I use a lot of bone meal, great P source. I do use triple super phosphate during the planting of my trees. Organic certifiers disqualify me the first three years, which is fine with me! Just when I begin to produce! (I am a lime and avocado grower).
The only issue I've ever had with using bone (or blood) meals have been digging animals like raccoons. Once I got learned, that issue went away. In any event, it seems to me that if we're going to be processing animals, we *need* to use the whole thing. All the way down to the bones. Going this route addresses a couple of issues, even if possibly presenting new.
 
NightsWatch

NightsWatch

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I guess i been lucky, with out worrying about calcium and any other nutrients growing in dirt. I just add a variety of greens , coffee grinds and eggshells. End of story
And no matter what every year vegetables grow and are healthy.

I let mother nature take care of it all Instead of trying to speed things up
I found the happy number with compost being just little over 3 weeks where i PH naturally becomes neutral or little acidic 6.8
That is when i mix it into any containers or new soil @ 50 / 50

The rest takes care of its self have not added any Gyp, Dol, bone meal or blood meal. or any conditioners for years no need for it .

I found when you start adding them it just compounds into more issues down the line from either locking out , ph swings or nutrient burn.
Because we changed the chemistry or process of natures clock

Whats the real goal here ??? i mean sure some add lime to change ph but microbes that would of done that you hurt by not allowing them to do it.

Its like counting 1 - 10 steps but the problem is you took out the first 6 steps in the carbon cycle just to speed things up

Anyways that is my thought people tend to worry way to much, everyone is in a hurry to make soil .
Plan Plan ahead in reality all you need is 30 day head start , when making any soil naturally .
And it will reward you way more then over thinking things

Anyways got to dump some greens into worm bins and compost :) and check whats going on under the grass haha
IMG5205
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Ecompost

Ecompost

5,134
313
I guess i been lucky, with out worrying about calcium and any other nutrients growing in dirt. I just add a variety of greens , coffee grinds and eggshells. End of story
And no matter what every year vegetables grow and are healthy.

I let mother nature take care of it all Instead of trying to speed things up
I found the happy number with compost being just little over 3 weeks where i PH naturally becomes neutral or little acidic 6.8
That is when i mix it into any containers or new soil @ 50 / 50

The rest takes care of its self have not added any Gyp, Dol, bone meal or blood meal. or any conditioners for years no need for it .

I found when you start adding them it just compounds into more issues down the line from either locking out , ph swings or nutrient burn.
Because we changed the chemistry or process of natures clock

Whats the real goal here ??? i mean sure some add lime to change ph but microbes that would of done that you hurt by not allowing them to do it.

Its like counting 1 - 10 steps but the problem is you took out the first 6 steps in the carbon cycle just to speed things up

Anyways that is my thought people tend to worry way to much, everyone is in a hurry to make soil .
Plan Plan ahead in reality all you need is 30 day head start , when making any soil naturally .
And it will reward you way more then over thinking things

Anyways got to dump some greens into worm bins and compost :) and check whats going on under the grass haha View attachment 656387 View attachment 656388
good man buddy I like your style, not that this matters I know, but your post is a breath of fresh air
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

5,134
313
I guess i been lucky, with out worrying about calcium and any other nutrients growing in dirt. I just add a variety of greens , coffee grinds and eggshells. End of story
And no matter what every year vegetables grow and are healthy.

I let mother nature take care of it all Instead of trying to speed things up
I found the happy number with compost being just little over 3 weeks where i PH naturally becomes neutral or little acidic 6.8
That is when i mix it into any containers or new soil @ 50 / 50

The rest takes care of its self have not added any Gyp, Dol, bone meal or blood meal. or any conditioners for years no need for it .

I found when you start adding them it just compounds into more issues down the line from either locking out , ph swings or nutrient burn.
Because we changed the chemistry or process of natures clock

Whats the real goal here ??? i mean sure some add lime to change ph but microbes that would of done that you hurt by not allowing them to do it.

Its like counting 1 - 10 steps but the problem is you took out the first 6 steps in the carbon cycle just to speed things up

Anyways that is my thought people tend to worry way to much, everyone is in a hurry to make soil .
Plan Plan ahead in reality all you need is 30 day head start , when making any soil naturally .
And it will reward you way more then over thinking things

Anyways got to dump some greens into worm bins and compost :) and check whats going on under the grass haha View attachment 656387 View attachment 656388
added, at home I do this too, only diff is I use a bokashi fermentation for the food waste, this then goes to be composted. Its easier for me to control odors and some possible unwanted visitors in what is a built up area. Theres lots of stuff here that just loves to dig out partially composted food and plenty of neo liberal types harping on about any smell that isnt domestos:-) I found the added Bokashi process stopped this dead without determent to the process of composting. I was able to add matter to channels i pre dug as we move the rows in a mild rotation. Its a tiny backyard space mate so we do what we can :-)
 
below frigid

below frigid

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Learning a lot for this thread. Thanks to you real farmers out there. No chemistry in school so I don't understand everything, but enough. Appreciate those of you trying to undo whats already been done to this planet.
 
S

Slownickel

78
33
I make compost with my own organic material, from my own cows, with a good compost turner and EM applications. Depending on what we need at the moment, the compost may go directly to the field in 60 days or it will go our worms to make worm castings (WC). Most often, it goes to the worms. I need humus in my soil. Organic material that is not fully digested to a great extent, oxidizes and then it blows away.

In addition, we apply several times over the season, top dresses of more WC and a top dress of dry manure. The dry manure break down process creates metabolites that give plants resistance to pests, fungus and what not. I am not so much trying to build humus with the dry manure, it is purely as a metabolite source for plant health.

Extra nitrogen is supplied through fish amino acids (68%) or 12.2 N. We cover crop and apply fresh plant waste in the form of corn stalks, beans , tiller radish, moringa and crotalaria In some areas, pure oregano under my lime trees. Chokes out everything. Not sure what it will due to my lime production. It is only on 400 trees...

We find that basil flowers bring in the beneficial that eats the leaf miner in citrus. So we have a lot of green basil planted.

According to Elaine, diversity of organic material makes all the difference in the world. When I asked her about humic, fulvic and humates, she blew it off. I later saw results on the biology analysis, where humates had been applied, the exponential counts went up by 100's of times. She is pretty set in her ways and believes that biology can do everything, she uses examples of the natural cycle of the forest.... I need response today...

There is a happy medium, obviously what she is teaching is helpful, where she is wrong is that she resists the "chemical" balancing of the bases. Sorry, but that was figured out many moons ago, all the growers that have listened, have nailed it. Yields, quality, disease resistance. Bulldog is one of many.

I don't sell gypsum or anything. I am hear to learn from other growers, as a grower my self, albeit a couple of plants for medicinal purposes. Sort of paying it forward if you will. I did take handouts from my friends at the cup.... hint hint. My message is that science has it's place, we have to understand nutritional relationships.

Many folks are in Fe based soils. Where there is more Mn than Fe in many parts of the world, yields usually are 50 to 200% higher.... add all the biology and woowoo you want. You won't get there without adding Mn. Can one get away without doing it? Surely, but you just limited your plants ability to convert sugars, making the plant more susceptible to disease and insects. Elaine does not have nor does there exist microbiology that will flip the Fe/Mn ratio upside down. Won't happen. And if your OM came from nearby soils with no Mn either, guess what your compost or WC analysis is going to look like?

Lots of this folly comes from Cali, Oregon and such, where there are some incredibly amazing soils that are so balanced you can just stick a seed in the ground and put on water. Go to New Jersey with those concepts and watch what happens.

What works is nutritional balance and minimum levels of nutrition.
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

5,134
313
I make compost with my own organic material, from my own cows, with a good compost turner and EM applications. Depending on what we need at the moment, the compost may go directly to the field in 60 days or it will go our worms to make worm castings (WC). Most often, it goes to the worms. I need humus in my soil. Organic material that is not fully digested to a great extent, oxidizes and then it blows away.

In addition, we apply several times over the season, top dresses of more WC and a top dress of dry manure. The dry manure break down process creates metabolites that give plants resistance to pests, fungus and what not. I am not so much trying to build humus with the dry manure, it is purely as a metabolite source for plant health.

Extra nitrogen is supplied through fish amino acids (68%) or 12.2 N. We cover crop and apply fresh plant waste in the form of corn stalks, beans , tiller radish, moringa and crotalaria In some areas, pure oregano under my lime trees. Chokes out everything. Not sure what it will due to my lime production. It is only on 400 trees...

We find that basil flowers bring in the beneficial that eats the leaf miner in citrus. So we have a lot of green basil planted.

According to Elaine, diversity of organic material makes all the difference in the world. When I asked her about humic, fulvic and humates, she blew it off. I later saw results on the biology analysis, where humates had been applied, the exponential counts went up by 100's of times. She is pretty set in her ways and believes that biology can do everything, she uses examples of the natural cycle of the forest.... I need response today...

There is a happy medium, obviously what she is teaching is helpful, where she is wrong is that she resists the "chemical" balancing of the bases. Sorry, but that was figured out many moons ago, all the growers that have listened, have nailed it. Yields, quality, disease resistance. Bulldog is one of many.

I don't sell gypsum or anything. I am hear to learn from other growers, as a grower my self, albeit a couple of plants for medicinal purposes. Sort of paying it forward if you will. I did take handouts from my friends at the cup.... hint hint. My message is that science has it's place, we have to understand nutritional relationships.

Many folks are in Fe based soils. Where there is more Mn than Fe in many parts of the world, yields usually are 50 to 200% higher.... add all the biology and woowoo you want. You won't get there without adding Mn. Can one get away without doing it? Surely, but you just limited your plants ability to convert sugars, making the plant more susceptible to disease and insects. Elaine does not have nor does there exist microbiology that will flip the Fe/Mn ratio upside down. Won't happen. And if your OM came from nearby soils with no Mn either, guess what your compost or WC analysis is going to look like?

Lots of this folly comes from Cali, Oregon and such, where there are some incredibly amazing soils that are so balanced you can just stick a seed in the ground and put on water. Go to New Jersey with those concepts and watch what happens.

What works is nutritional balance and minimum levels of nutrition.
I agree with you chap, we cant just stop doing the ferts if this is what we did before, we have to work towards reduction, just as we would in any addiction setting.
I understand the need to get results too. We made our own nutrients partly due to access to good materials which we cold use to make our own custom blends, and partly because we couldnt keep up with the ongoing costs to re mediate much of the land we have acquired buying it in.
I agree there will always be a need. i agree we have nailed some parts of plant mineral acquisition, but I know we have much still to learn.
I now time and economy is what dictates most peoples choices.
I disagree this comes from Cali, but agree they speak with good volume now. Europeans have been exporting this around the world for generations, Russia is one of the worlds largest producers of organic foods and crops and there are many people there that have been doing the things we are now rediscovering today in the west Ag for generations.

I dont think its folly to trust in nature, but i do think once we imagine we are at the end, someone will come past us and ask why we didnt keep walking.
 
NightsWatch

NightsWatch

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 I tend to stay away from anything Elaine has to say she has been discredited by many ..
Ecocompost i agree bokashi works i tend to lean away from it because o possible contamination or disease transfer

but i do add Cooked fats into my compost bin about 2 cups per month i am a firm believer in it
If you were to read about carbs and sugars in fats , amino's and other proteins . one could soon see that it would only benefit your compost bin
and it breaks down rather fast
 
NightsWatch

NightsWatch

428
93
I agree with you chap, we cant just stop doing the ferts if this is what we did before, we have to work towards reduction, just as we would in any addiction setting.
I understand the need to get results too. We made our own nutrients partly due to access to good materials which we cold use to make our own custom blends, and partly because we couldnt keep up with the ongoing costs to re mediate much of the land we have acquired buying it in.
I agree there will always be a need. i agree we have nailed some parts of plant mineral acquisition, but I know we have much still to learn.
I now time and economy is what dictates most peoples choices.
I disagree this comes from Cali, but agree they speak with good volume now. Europeans have been exporting this around the world for generations, Russia is one of the worlds largest producers of organic foods and crops and there are many people there that have been doing the things we are now rediscovering today in the west Ag for generations.

I dont think its folly to trust in nature, but i do think once we imagine we are at the end, someone will come past us and ask why we didnt keep walking.

People tend to forget it was people like my Father ( European ) that taught the west how to crop rotate and become more sustainable .
Again its the west trying to take full credit from that You know the west is always better mentality. then Europe etc

I also jut found top dressing every couple weeks with anything organic specially with a nutrient eating plant not only will in act as a insulation keeping moisture levels up it will constantly leach as it decomposes much quicker in open air
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

5,134
313
 I tend to stay away from anything Elaine has to say she has been discredited by many ..
Ecocompost i agree bokashi works i tend to lean away from it because o possible contamination or disease transfer

but i do add Cooked fats into my compost bin about 2 cups per month i am a firm believer in it
If you were to read about carbs and sugars in fats , amino's and other proteins . one could soon see that it would only benefit your compost bin
and it breaks down rather fast
yeah i guess know your inputs is the best we can hope for buddy. We dont compost anything we dont grow, havent grown from a spot we know well, bean or gene, this includes any animal materials we might then later compost. So we know the chickens are free of pathogens, we know the pig bones are free of pathogens. We know the bone material is the best we might hope for, the egg shells are rich in calcium and phosphates among the myriad of elements. Where we are, the boakshi process of this known material is faster than putting it out here where the cool nights slow decomp by some weeks

I think Elaine has posed some questions. i think people may have taken her data and been a bit care free with it. So now she is a poster girl in the USA for whats wrong with organics I sense. As i said in the tread, she is a base from which our curiosity should take over.If we sit back and rely on others, well now...
I love that i have met many people, all who have ideas, but like it or not, its people like Elaine that often help this conversation along even if that comes from dramas past and we decide today we have moved on.
 
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