Overuse of Eagle 20 and systemics makes resistant fungi

[qupee]

one and done.

negative, ghostrider.


http://www.dowagro.com/turf/prod/eagle.htm

The best control of labeled diseases is achieved when Eagle 20EW is applied on a seven- to 14-day schedule.

I'm trying to tell you I am one who has properly used Eagle 20 and it did not cure my PM. I also see some oddities with my PM (that it only infects one single pheno), so I really don't know what the deal is.

 

[motherlode]

the only way to succeed with the pm fight is to

get a fungalor fogger and treat the area with no plants present - tear down the affected room - everything needs to be cleaned with bleach or even better physan 20 - fans should be all tossed - new carbon filter etc if you have plastic on the walls you should take that down as well

after everything is cleared out of the room use physan or bleach and wash every surface 2x

bleach and power wash your res/trays

upgrade or add fans both ventilation and circulation

too low or too high of humidty can be a problem as well as dark spots in your garden - keep the bottoms of the plants that arent getting any light trimmed up

use a sulfur burner in veg

some strains just have little resistance to PM - love me some grape stomper - but its a PM magnet

so if its just one pheno maybe its not worth the effort

thats about all I got - lol

good luck

 

[Toker Ace]

the only way to succeed with the pm fight is to

get a fungalor fogger and treat the area with no plants present - tear down the affected room - everything needs to be cleaned with bleach or even better physan 20 - fans should be all tossed - new carbon filter etc if you have plastic on the walls you should take that down as well

after everything is cleared out of the room use physan or bleach and wash every surface 2x

bleach and power wash your res/trays

upgrade or add fans both ventilation and circulation

too low or too high of humidty can be a problem as well as dark spots in your garden - keep the bottoms of the plants that arent getting any light trimmed up

use a sulfur burner in veg

some strains just have little resistance to PM - love me some grape stomper - but its a PM magnet

so if its just one pheno maybe its not worth the effort

thats about all I got - lol

good luck

If you live where I do you also need to be hermetic and use sterilization for any incoming fresh air because it lives in the air thick here. Every golf course around has pm in the turf that has been sprayed every 14 days. Shit is plant herpes. She looks fine but she's really not.

 

[Toker Ace]

"Even after knowing all this, seeing a 14 day PHI on apples and grapes, reading the label that says it's only toxic to some aquatic life - I still only treat never flowered clones and then only once so far and then only after trying every other PM treatment I could find on these forums and on PM that strangely only affected a single pheno of a single strain - despite those affected plants rubbing shoulders with plenty of others (it's not my damn environment), and I actually did take the time to explain the whole damn situation to the people I know (how many can honestly say that)".
So apparently you don't think it is all that safe or you would use it more freely?

 

[qupee]

"Even after knowing all this, seeing a 14 day PHI on apples and grapes, reading the label that says it's only toxic to some aquatic life - I still only treat never flowered clones and then only once so far and then only after trying every other PM treatment I could find on these forums and on PM that strangely only affected a single pheno of a single strain - despite those affected plants rubbing shoulders with plenty of others (it's not my damn environment), and I actually did take the time to explain the whole damn situation to the people I know (how many can honestly say that)".
So apparently you don't think it is all that safe or you would use it more freely?

Yep that must be it.

Couldn't have anything to do with gaining more knowledge about it in the year that's passed since I used it. Couldn't have anything to do with understanding (or thinking you understand but not being 100% confident) and still deciding to be cautious. Couldn't have anything to do with peer pressure from a bunch of people spouting uninformed opinions about its toxicity everywhere. Couldn't have anything to do with having a preggo fiance and wanting to be extra cautious. etc, etc.

Read it for yourself. Do you believe that is reporting false data? Do you believe the studies they are reporting from were falsified or otherwise conducted in a way to make them unreliable? Do you not understand what how they are describing the toxicity (it did take me some time and more research to start to get it, and I'll admit I'm no trained botanist I may still have misconceptions). Or are you just trying to keep arguing?

People want to say its toxic and shouldn't be used on a smoked plant, I show you data that says otherwise. People want to say I'm ignorant, have my head in the sand, and spray anything on mature buds - I'll explain to you how I decided to use it. What's your problem?

 

[jetcat]

how can you begin to say its non toxic when its pan banned in all categories? the truth is big business is keeping it alive. we are feeding it to babies in small doses and claiming it is safe because of this. (yes it is present in a lot of baby foods) grape vineyards are also drenched in this shit... organic wine is the way to go (trader joes) so basically CA is taking known highly toxic substances and feeding them to us in the "correct doses". we all know this is not the only dispicable ag practice around here. Oregon has banned many of our products. i guess all im trying to say is yes you will find interest groups to support what ever opinion you form. but the cold hard facts still speak for themselves.

 

[qupee]

how can you begin to say its non toxic when its pan banned in all categories? but the cold hard facts still speak for themselves.

Please, explain what you mean by "its pan banned in all categories". That combination of words doesn't even make sense. What is pan banned? I'm thinking you don't know what you're talking about, but feel free to clarify yourself if I'm wrong.

Here's links to the PAN db info on Eagle 20 and Myclobutanil. My guess is you've never visited them.

http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC120#Toxicity
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Product.jsp?REG_NR=06271900463&DIST_NR=062719

 

[qupee]

The only thing PAN lists is that myclobutanil may be a developmental toxin. What is required to be listed as a possible developmental toxin, or rather PAN Bad Actor, is defined by a California proposition passed into law.

Tell me CA doesn't go a little overboard on the warnings? They have signs in the grocery store that tell you steak might give you cancer if you char it for christ's sake.

The simple fact that OSHA has ppe guidelines for the product could be enough to list it as a bad actor. I have yet to find any actual information on why myclobutanil falls under that designation. We'd all benefit if those "cold hard facts" were put on display here. I simply can't find them (but would like to).

btw, Toker Ace, this is exactly the reason I used caution when I applied Eagle the 1st time. Because I could not resolve what this meant in PAN exactly. It remains unclear, as I say. I can't decide if it's a bit of overboard fear mongering (they use a little skull and crossbones sheesh) or if there's published studies that might give me more info.

 

[qupee]

Ok, I may have been missing some info first time I looked at PAN, because now it seems clear as day.

http://toxipedia.org/display/toxipedia/Myclobutanil :

In a two-generation study on rats over the effects of myclobutanil on reproduction, researchers found a decrease in pup weight gain, increased incidence of stillborns, and atrophy of the testes and prostate (EPA). Myclobutanil is listed as a developmental toxin in the Toxics Release Inventory (PANNA).

Chronic toxicity tests on rats found decreased body weight and changes to brain and spleen weight, in addition to reproductive effects (EPA).

So that would explain the PAN listing.

But they don't give specific info there, or in PAN.

However, I DID give that specific info, or rather the Canadian govt did (or the original publishers of the study, go look it up).

Here, I'll repeat it in its entirety, again:

Rats:

In a two generation two-litter per generation reproduction study, myclobutanil (78.4% purity) was administered in the diet to Sprague-Dawley rats at concentrations of 0, 50, 200 and 1000 ppm. P1 rats were treated for 8 weeks before mating, during mating, gestation, and lactation. F1a (P2) rats were exposed through their lives including at least 8 weeks after weaning at 22 days and before mating. The NOEL for parental effects was 50 ppm (equal to 3.7 mg ai/kg bw/day). General toxic effects were recorded at 200 ppm (15 mg ai/kg bw/day) including increased liver weight in P1 and P2 males and centrilobular hepatocellular hypertrophy in P2 males. At 1000 ppm (equal to 75 mg ai/kg bw/day), the liver of P2 females was affected (centrilobular hepatocyte hypertrophy and increased liver weights) and P2 males showed grossly small flaccid testes, testicular and prostate atrophy, and decreased epididymal spermatozoa or necrotic spermatocytes.

The NOEL for reproductive effects was 200 ppm (15 mg ai/kg bw/day). At 1000 ppm, decreases were observed in the fertility index (F1a, F2a, and F2b), gestation index (F1a and F2b) and mean litter size (F2a) and the incidence of stillborn pups was significantly increased in all matings. Although birth weights of pups in treated and control groups were similar, the weight gain of the 1000 ppm pups was lower than controls by Day 4 or 7 and the difference increased up to Day 21.

Ok, one more time. Try to pay attention now.

NOEL is No Observable Effect Level. That means they gave x amount of whatever and ran a bunch of tests on your body and found no abnormal function. None.

They kill the animal and biopsy it. They measure residuals. They measure breakdown products. They have toxicity info separately on those breakdown products. It's all there man.

Let's take the lowest NOEL (which is lower than that for reproductive effects). 3.7mg ai/kg bw.day.

That's 3.7 mg of active ingredient (myclobutanil) per kg of body weight per day.

An average adult male could weigh 80 kg - 175 pounds. Their NOEL would be about 300 mg of myclobutanil per day. (assuming it scales linearly - possibly a bad assumption but consider the huge amount at the end, even if it's not linear we are WAY under the danger area)

We could assume a milliliter of myclobutanil weighs 1 mg, water does I imagine it's close enough. And Eagle 20 is a little less than 20% myclobutanil.

So to reach 300 mg, you'd need 1.5 Liters of Eagle 20 per day.

1.5 Liters per day. Okay? Explain if I'm wrong. I'm not. It's the same study.

Proposition 65 that lists myclobutanil as a PAN bad actor doesn't consider doseage levels at all, even if exposure to a toxic sized dose is absurd in any half sane situation.

Look it up, here I already did.

http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Docs/ref_regulatoryCA.html#CAProp65

If two independent committees of scientists, appointed by the governor, find that the chemical has been clearly shown to cause cancer or reproductive harm, the chemical can be added to the list. This listing mechanism is abbreviated SQE-- "state's qualified experts" and is described in 22 CCR 12305 (a)(1).
If a chemical has been classified as a carcinogen or as a reproductive toxicant by a designated "authoritative body", it can be added to the list. Organizations designated as authoritative under Prop 65 include the US Environmental Protection Agency, the US Food and Drug Administration, and the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, among others. This listing mechanism is abbreviated AB - "authoritative bodies" and is described in 22 CCR 12306.
Finally, a chemical can be added to the list if any state or federal government agency requires it to be labeled or identified as either a carcinogen or a reproductive toxicant. This listing mechanism is abbreviated FR -- "formally required to be labeled or identified" and is described in 22 CCR 12902.

You people are all talking and you haven't read jack shit. It's very obvious.

 

[jetcat]

sorry i should clarify it wasn't all categories. it only requires one category to be banned. reproductive and developmental harm is scary enough however. and don't forget it contains naphthalene(in an unspecified amount within the 80% of solution category) something known to cause cataracts. as far as california having labels... this is fairly recent because people have begun to learn about the state of our environment and the high levels of residual chemicals in everything from herbs to meat. we havn't banned the sale of these products just enforced laws to make customers aware of what they are purchasing. major distributors that practically run the natural foods industry like The Nutraceutical corp. are making ungodly amounts of cash pushing these inferior products under the guise of something that will actually improve your health. The cold facts are what you listed. You seem like a reasonably open minded individual just trying to find the truth. And thank you for not spewing hate. I am confident that the more you look into this the more you will run from it like the plague.

 

[Capulator]

Ok, I may have been missing some info first time I looked at PAN, because now it seems clear as day.

http://toxipedia.org/display/toxipedia/Myclobutanil :



So that would explain the PAN listing.

But they don't give specific info there, or in PAN.

However, I DID give that specific info, or rather the Canadian govt did (or the original publishers of the study, go look it up).

Here, I'll repeat it in its entirety, again:




Ok, one more time. Try to pay attention now.

NOEL is No Observable Effect Level. That means they gave x amount of whatever and ran a bunch of tests on your body and found no abnormal function. None.

They kill the animal and biopsy it. They measure residuals. They measure breakdown products. They have toxicity info separately on those breakdown products. It's all there man.

Let's take the lowest NOEL (which is lower than that for reproductive effects). 3.7mg ai/kg bw.day.

That's 3.7 mg of active ingredient (myclobutanil) per kg of body weight per day.

An average adult male could weigh 80 kg - 175 pounds. Their NOEL would be about 300 mg of myclobutanil per day. (assuming it scales linearly - possibly a bad assumption but consider the huge amount at the end, even if it's not linear we are WAY under the danger area)

We could assume a milliliter of myclobutanil weighs 1 mg, water does I imagine it's close enough. And Eagle 20 is a little less than 20% myclobutanil.

So to reach 300 mg, you'd need 1.5 Liters of Eagle 20 per day.

1.5 Liters per day. Okay? Explain if I'm wrong. I'm not. It's the same study.

Proposition 65 that lists myclobutanil as a PAN bad actor doesn't consider doseage levels at all, even if exposure to a toxic sized dose is absurd in any half sane situation.

Look it up, here I already did.

http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Docs/ref_regulatoryCA.html#CAProp65




You people are all talking and you haven't read jack shit. It's very obvious.

OWNED. + 1 for the research homie!

Thank God I have only been drinking about 1 liter per day...

 

[qupee]

I'm not suggestin anyone be cavalier with this stuff, and its smart to use personal protective gear. And tis product does have implication when used on larger scales.

But it seems perfectly safe for an average indoor grow.

It just bugs me that people make a claim about info that's right in front of them but they don't look at it and reason.

 

[jetcat]

I'm not suggestin anyone be cavalier with this stuff, and its smart to use personal protective gear. And tis product does have implication when used on larger scales.

But it seems perfectly safe for an average indoor grow.

It just bugs me that people make a claim about info that's right in front of them but they don't look at it and reason.

look at it and justify... i honestly don't see how any of that info tells you its ok.

 

[jetcat]

this is not a dare lol. but put even one drop of that in your coffee and you will not be ok...

 

[qupee]

look at it and justify... i honestly don't see how any of that info tells you its ok.

They did several studies where they gave animals doses many, many times larger than anything you'll encounter and they did it every day for months and years and it caused no discernable harm. That's what it looks like to me at least.

 

[qupee]

this is not a dare lol. but put even one drop of that in your coffee and you will not be ok...

Hmmm ... lol

I'm getting caught up in the argument a bit.

idk, it seems pretty safe given the small amounts we'd be exposed to. It also isn't readily adsorbed through the skin.

And you're right that other compounds in the mix could be as or more harmful than the active ingredient.

 

[jetcat]

Hmmm ... lol

I'm getting caught up in the argument a bit.

idk, it seems pretty safe given the small amounts we'd be exposed to. It also isn't readily adsorbed through the skin.

And you're right that other compounds in the mix could be as or more harmful than the active ingredient.

have you ever handled this stuff? i once purchased some on the black market in a tincture. its caustic bro! i could smell it through the bottle. i ended up throwing it away and not using it. are you aware that people are using it at the rate of 1 drop per gallon? even at that rate they never use it during flower. and the word on the street is that yes on drop will kill you. i don't know if its true but thats coming from people that promote it. i also highly doubt that it is not readily absorbed through the skin. there is a reason why you have to wear full protective gear covering every surface of your body. another thing to consider is that it takes months to break down indoors because of the lack of sun and rain etc. the 4 week rating is only for outdoors. ill take my chances with small amounts of pm rather than highly controversial chemicals that have numerous health hazards. just my 2cents not trying to sound better than anyone. just trying to raise the awareness. most people that try it only try it once. experience with it will tell you what it is.

 

[qupee]

have you ever handled this stuff? i once purchased some on the black market in a tincture. its caustic bro! i could smell it through the bottle. i ended up throwing it away and not using it. are you aware that people are using it at the rate of 1 drop per gallon? even at that rate they never use it during flower. and the word on the street is that yes on drop will kill you. i don't know if its true but thats coming from people that promote it. i also highly doubt that it is not readily absorbed through the skin. there is a reason why you have to wear full protective gear covering every surface of your body. another thing to consider is that it takes months to break down indoors because of the lack of sun and rain etc. the 4 week rating is only for outdoors. ill take my chances with small amounts of pm rather than highly controversial chemicals that have numerous health hazards. just my 2cents not trying to sound better than anyone. just trying to raise the awareness. most people that try it only try it once. experience with it will tell you what it is.

Open your eyes and READ.

Yes I've handled it. I said that.

No it is not adsorbed through the skin. It's stated very clearly in the docs I've linked to.

You realize the smell is from the petroleum based solvent they use to make the solution? Are you even sure what you got was Eagle 20? Mine came in the original bottle.

Word on the street? Give me a break bro. Word on the street is baseless rumor.

Anyone using this at 1 drop per gallon is performing exercises in futility. It's not effective at that dose. That actually may be more likely to cause the problem Seamaiden is warning about - resistant fungi developing.

And the only controversy is from folks who spout unfounded nonsense.

Come on.

 

[qupee]

I dare anyone to show me a single case of a person being harmed by exposure to myclobutanil.

 

[Blaze]

OK, here you go. The pesticide poisoning incidence rate among U.S. agricultural workers is thirty-nine times higher than the incidence rate found in all other industries combined. Myclobutanil is one of the 17 pesticides implicated in a 2008 study from the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health: